If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On 23 Nov 2003, Ignoramus22857 wrote:
In article , Doan wrote: If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's? Why is it so low in Singapore? Do not forget people, US crime rate is to a very large extent a "race issue". 53% of the offenders were black and only 45% white in 1996, according to the FBI statictics. That's even though blacks are a small fraction of the population. And how what percentage of professional sports are black? The issue is not a "race issue". You have to look at other social factors. What is the unemployment rate in black community, how many kids are born to unwed mothers.... In 1950s, blacks were not liberated as much, did not have easy access to weapons, etc. Liberation of them, while it had a lot of desirable effects, unfortunately had a great effect on black crime rate. HUH? A lot of crimes, such as forcible rape, was not as well reported in 1950s, either. As so did the lynching of blacks! I strongly suspect that if you break crime down well, the difference between 1950s and now would not be as huge for, say, white middle class people. You will be surprised on how many while middle class people are in jails today - mostly because of drugs! I would also be very surprised if trash criminals were grown in nonviolent homes. I am too lazy to look for it, but my sense is that these criminals grow up amongst drunk, drug abusing, wife beating, child beating retards, and not paragons of respectful, attentive methods of child rearing. And what do these have to do with spanking? Doan |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:59:10 -0800, Doan wrote:
And I why wonder what kind of parents can't tell the difference between spanking and beating!!! ;-) Those that are unable to define it exactly to the point for THEIR particular child when it changes from spanking to abuse...a beating. No, oh Doofus one, all too often spanking already as beating with a special name to excuse the brutatily, ignorance, and viciousness of the parent. And this marks, I think, post number three where I have recently challenged you to define spanking vs beating so that one can be distinguished from the other. I believe I did many months ago as well with similar results..you ignoring the question. Diversions of the "if you don't know I'm not going to tell you" variety, and deflecting the question with questions no longer are standing you in good stead. You obviously desparate and thrashing about with all your old bull****. And you know that it's you that is the Cargo Cult Mentality dimwit. Come on. Doan. Should be simple for you to give us a definition or better, come up with a study that clearly defines. It is a very important issue now that spanking and it's abusive nature are becoming more and more the subject of state scrutiny. Besides, Doan, you have a kindly heart I know, and after all, it's for the children. Doan {-] |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:28:03 -0600, "Donna Metler"
wrote: "ChrisScaife" wrote in message ... How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal society way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern principles of human society. I don't know of animals that beat their young. Only degenerate humans could be that base. ;-) Mama cats swat kittens on the nose for misbehavior, along with a hiss. Whose "children" then grow up to be compulsive torturers and indiscriminate killers. Sows routinely eat their young when streesed or from having a dietary imbalance. Yet pigs are supposed to be very bright animals. Apes and chimpanzees routinely rape their immature young. Bringing up animals when discussing human behavior is irrelevant. We have, though I rarely find any evidence here in these ngs, greater intelligence, hence a greater range of choices than animals. Kane |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:37:07 -0800, Doan wrote:
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote: How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal society way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern principles of human society. I don't know of animals that beat their young. Only degenerate humans could be that base. ;-) I saw the same argument used against abortion! Do you know of any animal that put their youngs in diaper??? ;-) I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response to your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being beating. YOU haven't answered the simple question, "when does a spanking become a beating." What is the point of passing over from one to the other. And none of that usual slime of yours like "if you don't know I'm not going to tell you," or "anti spankers, etc." Come on Doan, let's have it. You can't defend that their is a difference between spanking and beating unless you can make a definative arguement for what one is and not the other. Of course you do know that even the legal definitions tend to be somewhat less than clear, most especially on the questions of psychological harm. How low must the intensity be for spanking to not cause psychological harm? Doan Choking are you? Kane |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On 1 Dec 2003, Kane wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:03:45 -0800, Doan wrote: On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto wrote: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote: Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially the same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents see. Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives to same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking. Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline. Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that were studied. Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support: lecturing; scolding; *other* methods not working. Wrong! I am asking for NON-CP alternatives, any non-cp alternative! And when offered you lie. LOL! And when you openned your mouth you lied. :-) If spanking is as bad as you and the anti-spanking zealotS claimed, why is it so hard to find an alternative that stood the same statistical scrutiny??? Because what works does not have to studied. It is far too obvious. The observations of child behavioralists for the past century has show repeated the how punishment, and most especially CP is a dead end. So who need science! ;-) He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the point he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of "slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other evidence that buries him. Which are???? Read below the next comment. You meant like Straus et al (1997) in which the "no-spank" group turned out to be a group that were spanked??? And then you've gone on, taking his honesty, and lying, and cited that this SPANKED group in fact showed worse behaviors. You are a liar, Doan, which people are tired of humoring. LOL! You are speaking for the "people"? "We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood that our no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that this is the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for children in the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of children whose parents spank, but do so only infrequently." Are you so blind? ;-) Not in the least. Are you? In an obviosly punitive parent group, where ALL actually spanked, as Strauss found, the LEAST SPANKED HAD THE BEST BEHAVIOR. Are you so stupid or you are just too lazy to read the study? ;-) How many times has this been pointed out to you? How many times do you have to lie? :-) Is it too hard to understand that if you have a downward trend line correlated to a single constant you have obvious growing evidence of causality. The less spanking the better behavior. Are you so stupid??? Correlation is not causation! It is not even evidence of a temporal order! Read the studies and learn to respond rationally, Kane. ;-) I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street Entry study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses of all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality notwithstanding. I have! I have asked Chris when he mentioned this study to post the details of this study so we can learn from it. HE REFUSED!!! I wonder why. I am now asking you. Can you post the relevant information of this study so we can all take a look at it? Can you tell us how many kids were studied? What the methodology is? What confounding factors were controlled for? Come on, Kane. Show us who the real "phony" is? :-) I invited you before to contact professor Embry. He is available at Dr. Dennis D. Embry P.O. PAXIS Institute, 31475, Tucson, AZ 85751 520-299-6770 520-299-6822 I am not challenging his study YOU are. You tell him his study is not adequate for your purposes. What a cop out! Just as I expected, you haven't read the study and can't respond. Chris Dunga pulled the same trick years ago. He would tell people to go to the library instead. He now knows better and avoided me at every chance! You are a few years late and a bunch of brain-cells short! ;-) Do you really wanted me to respond to the Embry study or not? At least you are consistent - consistently stupid that is! :-) And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the needs of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level. The devil is in the details. That's right and until you can show us the details, beyond, "It's history" aren't you bit embarrassed to be making such demands? Right, Kane. ;-) How aweful of me to be making demands. I should just accept it base on faith, right Kane??? I am a pragmatic person, Bull****. You are an emotional blind man from your childhood experience of shame from being whipped by your parents. LOL! And your mouth is spewing "bull****"! ;-0 show me how your theory work in real life situations. You will have to come here and accompany to treatment centers I've worked at. I await your arrival. Good. Give me an address and contact number. Better yet, why not publish your results? We have a large population of kids in juvenile halls. Yes, though juvenile crime is somewhat down these days and has been dropping the rising tide of parenting methods that do no rely on CP as a threat. Are you so stupid as to make such claim? Show me a graph of the juvenile crime rate from 1960 on, Kane. Try this, Kane: http://www.fbi.gov/Cius_97/97crime/97crime5.pdf "The violent crime arresst rate for the total juvenile population show an increase of 143 percent from 1967 to 1996. Though the juvenile male violent crime rate expanded by 124 percent from 1967 to 1996, the juvenile female arrest rate is nearly triple that figure, 345 percent." Let's try your "positivie discipline" there first and see how it go. About half the mentally ill teens I worked with were adjudicated, that is assigned to treatment by the court in lieu of encarceration. I not only got to "see how it go" I made it go myself. Punitive methods of any kind showed that they were next to useless with hardcore teens and mentally ill teens. As more and more of the staff adopted my methods (other practitioners were of course knowledgable so the methods were spreading everywhere even as I was demonstrating them) the rate of success with moving children back into their homes and our of encarceration with lower ricidivism rates it was enough to convince us that no punishment methods worked, and as you say below, were we were CP was not allowed. LOL! You are not puffering, are you? What is the recidivism rate? However I'll tell you how the stupid such as you managed to do CP anyway and get away with it. Yup! 98% percent of college freshmen and 95% of professional. But you don't want that, right? ;-) BTW, corporal punishments are not allowed in juvenile halls! ;-) R R R R ... very funny. Pain can be applied, blindman, by many means outside the usual definition of CP. Being made to wait inordinately to go to the bathroom. Refusing to allow one to visit with parents. Forcing to stand or sit in painful uncomfortable positions (and no, I'm not giving a laundry list with pigs such as you reading my post) for long periods of time. LOL! THOSE are allowed. Really? And you didn't protest???? ;-) Then there is that infamous "safety holds" issue. Watch some of the cop shows on TV. You'll see demonstrations of how much pain can be applied without striking. In my case what instituted a major change in the agency I worked with was my refusal to teach holding techniques, especially those that took the client to the floor, and after a month of rangling with the board of directors I won the argument. Immediately behaviors improved. WOW! They should show that on 20/20! :-) Again, publish it, Kane. What is the recidivism rate before and after? Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is a positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity. I want to use the same measurements that anti-spanking zealotS like Straus used! Then, asshole. DO IT. who's stopping you? LOL! How did my "asshole" get to your mouth? ;-) Funding might be a bit hard to come by. There is very little for the social sciences that can be directed to and funded that address nice nice issues. Monies come to study harm. You know that, I know that, and I know that you know, so your disengenuous crap of asking for what cannot be produced because it generally is NEEDED RESEARCH in the eyes of the public or the funding agency officers is an escape hatch when YOU are asked to prove your contention. Funny, Straus If the reduction antisocial behaviors is a benefit than Straus et al (1997) showed that spanking less than once a week is a benefit! The cargo-cult mentality is not subjecting the non-cp alternatives to the same statistical scrutiny. No, it is not. What IS cargo cult mentality is claiming the NO spanking is less effective then a little spanking. The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can survive a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for the child to just survive. The problem with your "reasoning" is that few of the non-cp cultures "survived"! Can you you name a non-cp culture? ;-) Yep. Several. The Senoi, SE Asian culture. The exist peacefully in a sea of brutality among people that DO use punishment. Not only don't they but they have custom of reviewing dreams each morning to see if they will influence the days decisions. The children's dreams are as important to the process as the adults. I understand they haven't had a murder or suicide in over a hundred years. "There are very few Senoi left, and those that are, don't share their dreams, or deny that they ever did. But, who can blame them, when you look at what happenned to them the last time they told their secret?" and "Although in 'The Dreamkeepers: Saving the Senoi', the author has taken liberties witht the small amount of information available on the tribe and their customs, we encourage you to explore more on the subject and make your own decisions." Look like you believe in dreams, Kane. ;-) Now it's your turn. Provide me with a culture that SPANKS and punishes that is peaceful by nature, has low rates of violent crime and murder, and low child abuse rates. There's a good boy. Try to look at Singapore, Kane. :-) And for the edification of those with more reading comprehension and in the spirit of educational responsibility for the ignorant I offer this interesting history of child rearing that helps explain some of the compulsive slavish support of violence on children. Some of that wonderful, "but parents have spanked their children for centuries and it worked" bull****. http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf Yup! Who needs science when you can just stop using your brain and believe! ;-) Doan Doan {-] |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
In article , Kane wrote: I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response to your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being beating. spanking is a subset of beating. Actually, they are both subsets of hitting. But a subset is not the equivalence of the whole set! Just as oranges, lemons and grapefruits are subsets of citrus. You can beat someone with a stick, a metal chain, a hammer, or an open palm. Beating children with an open palm is spanking. And immunizing children is to inject them with germs???? Cutting children nails is to cut off parts of their bodies???? Spanking is violence directed at children with the purpose to intimidate them into compliance. And I thought I can have a rational discourse! What next? Abortion is murder??? ;-) Doan |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:20:03 -0800, Doan wrote:
In article , Kane wrote: I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response to your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being beating. spanking is a subset of beating. Actually, they are both subsets of hitting. But a subset is not the equivalence of the whole set! Just as oranges, lemons and grapefruits are subsets of citrus. You can beat someone with a stick, a metal chain, a hammer, or an open palm. Beating children with an open palm is spanking. And immunizing children is to inject them with germs???? Cutting children nails is to cut off parts of their bodies???? Spanking is violence directed at children with the purpose to intimidate them into compliance. And I thought I can have a rational discourse! What next? Abortion is murder??? ;-) Hey, Doan, let me help you out here. I guess you haven't noticed my flurry of recent posts asking you to tell us the cutoff point for spanking, when it goes into beating. I know you are busy formulating the intensely scientific and logical reponses you just did in this post, but you could really flatten our debating opponents and all us anti-spanking zealots if you'd just come up with the answer to what you say we can't tell the difference...spanking vs beating. Help us understand, Sensei. Do you need more time? {;-]} Doan Kane |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:45:06 -0800, Doan wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote: How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal society way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern principles of human society. I don't know of animals that beat their young. Only degenerate humans could be that base. ;-) I saw the same argument used against abortion! Do you know of any animal that put their youngs in diaper??? ;-) That is because animals are not able to do that, but they are able to injure their offspring. They choose not to. Actually, it depends on what kind of animals we are talking about; some do eat their youngs. You are right that most animals are very protective of their youngs. It is ironic then to think that humans are difference and as parents, we don't know how to take care of our youngs. Until you look at our contemporaries and our ancestors, who both routinely raped their young, killed them at their pleasure, and beat and worked them to death from tiem to time....or is this view of yours protecting, encouraging, and apologizing for parents who us CP in the same vein...."this is parenting, by Doan the Duplicitious." If you've been listen to the anti-spanking zealotS, I have, more intensely. we have been doing it wrong since the beginning of time! I've always thought those flatearthers were right and instead of telephones, and now computers, we should still be hollering from mountain tops to send messages. Hell on graphic images though. As for abortion... I would rather not start on that one right now. Chris It's your choice! :-) Brilliant! Well, compared to your gems above. {;-]} Doan Kane |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Kids should work...
On 3 Dec 2003 04:02:25 GMT, Ignoramus29143
wrote: In article , Kane wrote: where is that pdf? http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf thanks. There are only two possible incidences that a child would be oppositional and inconsiderate given his developmental level. The first is when he has been given poor information by the world around but more often by his caregiver. You see, a child acts exactly, barring my next caveat, as nature intended and is always precisely on target developmentally. A patient loving parent knows this an parents accordingly with information, exploration support, and above all, kindness. In the only other instance that a child would be oppositional and inconsiderate given his developmental level, she would likely be dysfuctional mentally or physcially and unable to perform at developmental level. How about the possibility that he wants something and thinks that he can get it at the expense of others. That fits my description of the two states of being. He is either physiologically dysfunctional in a way that compromises learning and judgement (autistic children come most easily to mind as a clear example), or he is psychologically dysfunctional either because the situation is new to him, or he has poor information to allow for approriate learning and the psychologically appropriate development to occur on schedule. A punishment does not have to be physical. If you buy into the idea that a child is doing "wrong" when they are doing a behavior you do not approve or and do not with them to do and you think you can make them do a wanted behavior, even if only to stop, and punishment is your choice, ask why you chose it? And what might work better. There are NO non-punitive parenting tactics that work less well than spanking. Spanking mainly just fast, and distracts a child from the unwanted activity, but, as is evidenced time and again, the child STILL has the urge to do what he was trying to do before he was distracted. They then grow up with, at the very least, feelings of free floating anxiety about themselves (since we are always trying to find out how to do new thing, or old things better...unless of course it is spanked out of us). But children, like adults, respond to incentives and there is nothing wrong, ni my ignorant opinion, with constructive a good model incentive system. One of the extraordinary things that happened to me as I homeschooled my children was that they wanted to learn faster than I could deliver the goods. Worked me to a frazzle, a joyful one of course. The became so accustomed to me as their coach that in time for days and days they would just forge on ahead, but when something new came up or and old thing wanted to be done in a new way, the had the feeling of safety that allowed them to try it...and they needed me even less. My daughter, by age 11 was more mature than most adults, yet she could still play, and was joyfilled person. Still is 30 years later. And a fulltime learner...accounting right now. It is doubly hard to deal with if one moves to a punishment model, bot for the child, and for the caregiver. Problems with worsen, at the expense of healing, and outside of possibly gaining some compliance through fear, the side effects can be threatening to the child and later society. Prisons bear this out. There is a great deal of mental illness and psychologically poor developmental progress among inmates. I would not make such broad statements as I see no firm basis in evidence for them. I've worked in the prison system. It's what I saw and what penologists report. Prison psychological testing and observation shows extremely retared social skill, right down to the inability to cooperatively play (or work) with others typical of a three year old when they are tired. I'm not making broad statements. Do some reading. In either case, why would you punish at all? What IS it you wish the child to learn, say when she hits a playmate, or destroys something you care about, or is noise in a place you wish her to be quiet, or if she keeps dropping her food on the floor? That regardless of how much some things are wanted, doing them has unpleasant consequences. It is a good lesson in life. Of course. Why do YOU have to be one delivering the unpleasant consequences? Can't you figure out how to build that safely into the environment? Just pick up the food, trash it, and don't replace it. Which is a mild punishment model, or............... Figure out what the learning exercise is the child is performing...that IS what child behavior is about, and a great deal of adult behavior. We become, way past being conscious of it, superb drivers by practice practice practice. Often that is all the child is doing. I'll write your next question for you and answer it. Courtesy quotes: "What in the world has dropping food on the floor got to do with learning anything?" When a early childhood development specialist just hired by the school district moved in down the road from me ask me that in 1973 or 74, being the bright introsupective intellectually advance character I was (R R R R) I piped up with "Social skills...she trying to get me to do things for her, training me" with a broad slaphappy grin on my face, I'm sure. The patient man, a part time college instructor set some boundaries and restated the question differently... Do not think about food in the usual way, nor the highchair, but of their physical characterists and their interaction with the eviroment they are in. I thought he was out of his mind...but...in time, with his patience, I got it. The objects..food, had mass and weight. I dropped they would fall. The highchair had height so one could view the falling object longer and observe it's behavior in the physical universe... When I got it my response was an incredulous "Noooo...gravity experiements?" He responded by pointing out other things I knew about child learning behaviors just by simple observation....they repeat things they wish to study and learn...we even help them with rhymes and songs and patticake mantras. My child was dropping things to study gravity, and he also would push a chair to the wall and climb up and switch the light on and off endlessly, and poor water back and forth and back and forth and b..well, you get the picture. So then, I had to ask myself, are all these behaviors that bother me BAD behaviors or are they learning behaviors. i Best. Kane |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
misc.kids FAQ on breastpumps, Part 1/2 | Beth Weiss | Info and FAQ's | 1 | March 19th 04 09:35 AM |
misc.kids FAQ on Good things about having kids | [email protected] | Info and FAQ's | 0 | March 18th 04 09:12 AM |
misc.kids FAQ on breastpumps, Part 1/2 | Beth Weiss | Info and FAQ's | 1 | February 16th 04 09:59 AM |
misc.kids FAQ on Good things about having kids | [email protected] | Info and FAQ's | 0 | February 16th 04 09:59 AM |
WSJ: How to Give Your Child A Longer Life | Jean B. | General | 0 | December 9th 03 06:10 PM |