The Embry Study: What it actually said.

Doan wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:



Doan wrote:

......................snip



And I chose USPS, stupid! ;-)

"Stupid!" has proven to be a baseless claim. Obviously. So you are now,
of course, simply lying reflexively .


And it fit you PERFECTLY! ;-)

It fits your need perfectly to try and convince yourself I'm stupid.

0:-

No. I have already proven that you are STUPID! It's now just a fact! ;-)

You topped me that time. I never figured you become delusional. Lie, of
course, but delusional? Tsk.

Only in your dream! ;-)

People that are delusional don't usually know until their friends have
to do an "intervention."

Doan

0:-

On 16 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:



Doan wrote:

......................snip



And I chose USPS, stupid! ;-)

"Stupid!" has proven to be a baseless claim. Obviously. So you are now,
of course, simply lying reflexively .


And it fit you PERFECTLY! ;-)

It fits your need perfectly to try and convince yourself I'm stupid.

0:-

No. I have already proven that you are STUPID! It's now just a fact! ;-)

You topped me that time. I never figured you become delusional. Lie, of
course, but delusional? Tsk.

Only in your dream! ;-)

People that are delusional don't usually know until their friends have
to do an "intervention."


Who are your "friends"? ;-)

Doan

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

Do you know that the Embry study found no correlation between safe play
concepts and actual safe play for children at this age?

And this tells us what? That we should not teach safe play concepts?
You are a fool. We start teaching early and it becomes second nature
as children grow.

So telling them to "hold hands near the street", "walk on the sidewalk"...
etc is USELESS!

Telling them without modelling it and without helping them to do it
is useless. But then we never *only* talk.

So the safest way is to always superive your kids or keep them the
backyard if possible.

Supervision of children this age is best.

But again, this study has nothing to do with spanking/no-spanking!

Sure it does. Note Dr. Embry's words below.

Give me a link to the actual study, Doan. I have only Dr. Embry's
statement in Children's Magazine that it has to do with *all* of the
things he observed *including* spanking. I also note that the only
thing I can find online about a *Mitchell* study involves a Mitchell
Perry and seems to be something to do with spanking fetishes
more than anything else. So if you have a link to an actual study
there, I would love to see it. I cannot find a MacMillan study
online either. Frankly, I don't have the time to research these
things right now as my grandson is keeping me very busy. He
was diagnosed as autistic at 18 months and his therapies are
happening at my home for the most part.

"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project
designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged
children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third
leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)

"Actual observation of parents and children shows that *spanking,*
(emphasis added) scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES
the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the
street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there
is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe
Playing.

************************************************** ********************
Note the word spanking in the statement by Dr. Embry above.
He includes other things as well and I would also include them.

Also note that Dr. Embry does not reccomend *talking* to children.
he reccomends rewarding them with stickers or with praise when
they do the right thing. They do not have to understand the
concept of safe playing for this to be effective in keeping them
from going into the street.

************************************************** *********************

The underlying principles of the program are simple:

1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on
the grass or sidewalk."

2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing
dangerously.

3. Praise your child for safe play.


"These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing
safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked
many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to
do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for
safe play, the children stopped going into the street.

Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D.
University of Kansas
Lawrence Kansas"

Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that
some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations
yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don't eat out of the catfood
dish!" "Don't jump on furniture!" "Don't go into the street!" the
toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture!
Go into the street!"

(Where's Glen Appleby when we need him. Remember how
he used to also explain this. Note that my experience with
preschoolers in a school setting is much the same. If you state
your rules with No or Don't the children most often continue what
the are doing wrong. If you state your rules so they hear what
they should do, they comply much more often.)

Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of
"catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice
when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are
trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native
culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help
them immeasurably on their developmental journey.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:10:46 -0800, Doan wrote:

I, on the other hand, OFFERED to provide this study to anyone that asked.
My offer still stand, anyone want a copy of this study, just email me.

Do you have it in a format ready for email. I don't give out my snail
mail to anyone I only know online. I am too busy to actually stick
around for this debate as I mentioned in another post.

Are you speaking of the safe playing study by Dr. Dennis Embry? If
so, I imagine people can also get a copy if they are willing to pay
the 10 cents per page and the $7.50 shipping charge. I am sure the
study was not intended to study spanking or any other method of
discipline, however, it would seem that Dr. Embry did make a discovery
about punishment and street entries from his own observations.

http://www.aaafoundation.org/resourc...utton=rsrchcat

AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety Publications

June 19, 2003

The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety has funded traffic safety
research and produced reports going back to 1958. With one exception,
reports produced since 1994 are available free of charge in hardcopy
and as electronic files. Hardcopies of many of the earlier reports
are also available free of charge and those that are out-of-print can
be purchased for 10 cents per page plus $7.50 for shipping and
handling. For hardcopies, please email Fairley Washington with your
mailing address and the name(s) of the reports you’d like to receive.

1981

Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parenting
Training & Symbolic Modeling for Children; An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Dennis Embry, University of Kansas, James
L. Malfetti, Columbia University. Copies Available @ .10/page. (140
pgs.)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, toto wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

Do you know that the Embry study found no correlation between safe play
concepts and actual safe play for children at this age?

And this tells us what? That we should not teach safe play concepts?
You are a fool. We start teaching early and it becomes second nature
as children grow.

Sure! But don't assume that children at this age will make the connection
between concepts and reality!

So telling them to "hold hands near the street", "walk on the sidewalk"...
etc is USELESS!

Telling them without modelling it and without helping them to do it
is useless. But then we never *only* talk.

Agree!

So the safest way is to always superive your kids or keep them the
backyard if possible.

Supervision of children this age is best.

We agreed again! ;-)

But again, this study has nothing to do with spanking/no-spanking!

Sure it does. Note Dr. Embry's words below.

That is why it is always to go straigth to the source (the study) instead
of relying on hearsay. I read the study and found NOTHING about spanking
kids for running into the street!

Give me a link to the actual study, Doan. I have only Dr. Embry's
statement in Children's Magazine that it has to do with *all* of the
things he observed *including* spanking.

Funny thing is there no such data in his study! ;-) Here is the link:
http://www.aaafoundation.org/resourc...h/rsrchcat.cfm
look under they year 1981

Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parenting
Training & Symbolic Modeling for Children; An Experimental Analysis in
the Natural Environment. Dennis Embry, University of Kansas, James L.
Malfetti, Columbia University. Copies Available @ .10/page. (140 pgs.)

So you can spend $14.00 for this study or send me a self-addressed large
envelope and I'll be glad to send it your way. Just for you, I'll even
pay the postage. You can also ask Kane to send you one. He said he
already provided it to three of his phantom friends. ;-) You then will
findout who is the LIAR really is. I wonder if any "cause" is worth it
if one has to resort to LIES to promote it.

I also note that the only
thing I can find online about a *Mitchell* study involves a Mitchell
Perry and seems to be something to do with spanking fetishes
more than anything else. So if you have a link to an actual study
there, I would love to see it. I cannot find a MacMillan study
online either. Frankly, I don't have the time to research these
things right now as my grandson is keeping me very busy. He
was diagnosed as autistic at 18 months and his therapies are
happening at my home for the most part.

Spanking fetishes is not my thing so I can't help you there. Maybe
you should ask Chris. ;-) Here is the link to the McMillan study:

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/...a0038e31d4b858

Sorry to hear about your grandson. I hope the therapies help.

"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project
designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged
children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third
leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)

"Actual observation of parents and children shows that *spanking,*
(emphasis added) scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES
the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the
street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there
is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe
Playing.

************************************************** ********************
Note the word spanking in the statement by Dr. Embry above.
He includes other things as well and I would also include them.

Also note that Dr. Embry does not reccomend *talking* to children.
he reccomends rewarding them with stickers or with praise when
they do the right thing. They do not have to understand the
concept of safe playing for this to be effective in keeping them
from going into the street.

************************************************** *********************

Why look at second-hand information when you can go to the source and
decide for yourself? I thought you don't believe in REWARD!

Here is what the Safe-Playing program, according to the study:

1) ASK
- Ask if your child is going to play safely.
- Ask what playing safely means.
- Define areas of safe play as needed.
2) TIMER
- Set a timer to help you be consistent.
- A timeer helps you remember and lets your child know that you are
serious.
3) PRAISE
- Praise your child for playing safely. Your child values you
attention.
4) REWARD
- Reward your child's safe play. Playing safely is hard work for your
child. Choose something your child likes to earn.
5) SIT & WATCH (a punishment procedure also known as Time Out)
- Going into the street is dangerous. If your child goes into the
street without you, make your child sit and watch for 3-5 minutes.
6) TEACH
- Teach your child about safe crossing. Hold the child's hand and ask
"when it's safe to cross." Give feedback.

Doan

The underlying principles of the program are simple:

1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on
the grass or sidewalk."

2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing
dangerously.

3. Praise your child for safe play.


"These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing
safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked
many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to
do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for
safe play, the children stopped going into the street.

Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D.
University of Kansas
Lawrence Kansas"

Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that
some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations
yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don't eat out of the catfood
dish!" "Don't jump on furniture!" "Don't go into the street!" the
toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture!
Go into the street!"

(Where's Glen Appleby when we need him. Remember how
he used to also explain this. Note that my experience with
preschoolers in a school setting is much the same. If you state
your rules with No or Don't the children most often continue what
the are doing wrong. If you state your rules so they hear what
they should do, they comply much more often.)

Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of
"catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice
when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are
trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native
culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help
them immeasurably on their developmental journey.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, toto wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:10:46 -0800, Doan wrote:

I, on the other hand, OFFERED to provide this study to anyone that asked.
My offer still stand, anyone want a copy of this study, just email me.

Do you have it in a format ready for email. I don't give out my snail
mail to anyone I only know online. I am too busy to actually stick
around for this debate as I mentioned in another post.

Sorry, toto, all I have is paper copy. How about inter-library loan?
Do you have access to a library? I understand your concern, I have
the same concern myself. I am will ing to stick my neck out for the
TRUTH though. I am using my real name and address so I am at a very
vulnerable position. Maybe it's time to use a public email account
and hide behind a screen-name - how is annef.from.dreamland sound?

Are you speaking of the safe playing study by Dr. Dennis Embry? If
so, I imagine people can also get a copy if they are willing to pay
the 10 cents per page and the $7.50 shipping charge.

You found it! So $14.00 + $7.50 ($21.50) or you can get it from me
for just the price of a large envelope. ;-)

I am sure the
study was not intended to study spanking or any other method of
discipline, however, it would seem that Dr. Embry did make a discovery
about punishment and street entries from his own observations.


And yet somebody, who claimed to have the study, can BLATANTLY make this
statement:
"Pretty remarkable when one considers that parents who spanked before had
children that attemped entries at the highest rate of all per hour."

Do you think that this is a "mistake" or a BLATANT LIE, Dorothy? ;-)

Doan

http://www.aaafoundation.org/resourc...utton=rsrchcat

AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety Publications

June 19, 2003

The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety has funded traffic safety
research and produced reports going back to 1958. With one exception,
reports produced since 1994 are available free of charge in hardcopy
and as electronic files. Hardcopies of many of the earlier reports
are also available free of charge and those that are out-of-print can
be purchased for 10 cents per page plus $7.50 for shipping and
handling. For hardcopies, please email Fairley Washington with your
mailing address and the name(s) of the reports you’d like to receive.

1981

Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parenting
Training & Symbolic Modeling for Children; An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Dennis Embry, University of Kansas, James
L. Malfetti, Columbia University. Copies Available @ .10/page. (140
pgs.)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, toto wrote:


On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:10:46 -0800, Doan wrote:


I, on the other hand, OFFERED to provide this study to anyone that asked.
My offer still stand, anyone want a copy of this study, just email me.

Do you have it in a format ready for email. I don't give out my snail
mail to anyone I only know online. I am too busy to actually stick
around for this debate as I mentioned in another post.


Sorry, toto, all I have is paper copy.

In fact you only got it recently, meaning you lied for nearly a year:

'"I now have the study. It would be fun to see you do the dance now.
Go ahead! What is the sample size? Got you, "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Doan "'
From your post of Jan 29 this year.

Seems you are the habitual liar I've exposed you as being so many times.
Did you not recently post this information concerning the report?:

"Level: 1 - Reproducible in paper and microfiche; and, since 1993, in
electronic format; materials issued from January 1993 - July 2004 are
now available at no cost through this Web site "

Did you not then do one of your childish "I DARE YOU," numbers?

Daring me to use the link to the study?

Isn't it odd that you now claim you have only a paper copy but do not
offer her the inexpensive option of linking to the report electronically
and downloading it?

Any particular reason why not?

How about inter-library loan?
Do you have access to a library? I understand your concern, I have
the same concern myself. I am will ing to stick my neck out for the
TRUTH though. I am using my real name and address so I am at a very
vulnerable position. Maybe it's time to use a public email account
and hide behind a screen-name - how is annef.from.dreamland sound?

Possibly you didn't get my message earlier.

And why should you be concerned about your safety. After all you are
just being honest, are you not?

Are you speaking of the safe playing study by Dr. Dennis Embry? If
so, I imagine people can also get a copy if they are willing to pay
the 10 cents per page and the $7.50 shipping charge.


You found it! So $14.00 + $7.50 ($21.50) or you can get it from me
for just the price of a large envelope. ;-)

You can't resist jerking people around can you, Doan? Even someone
that's being decent to you as toto has been despite your rude childishness.

You have a real problem with compulsive passive aggressive manipulation
of people, Doan.

I am sure the
study was not intended to study spanking or any other method of
discipline, however, it would seem that Dr. Embry did make a discovery
about punishment and street entries from his own observations.



And yet somebody, who claimed to have the study, can BLATANTLY make this
statement:
"Pretty remarkable when one considers that parents who spanked before had
children that attemped entries at the highest rate of all per hour."

Do you think that this is a "mistake" or a BLATANT LIE, Dorothy? ;-)

How would toto know, or "think" one way or another, any more than you
can? She has no more information about where that came from than you.

Are you giving her only those two choices without her having access to
the study?

There seems to be no end to your perpetual rudeness.

She's quite busy, as you can tell by her most recent posts, yet you wish
to harass her and NOT offer her the electonic link to the study?

Dear me.

Doan


http://www.aaafoundation.org/resourc...utton=rsrchcat

AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety Publications

By the way, Doan, either AAS Foundation is lying (higher unlikely) or
you are, (much more likely) when I sought the study some years back it
was not available from AAA by electronic means OR mail.

Why would they lie? You "called them" you say? I doubt that. And I
doubt, if you did, that you spoke to anyone that knew the history back
as far as I asked for it from them.

Dorothy, if you wish a copy, contact me personally. Just pick up this
post in Goggle Groups and hit reply to sender.

I have a very poor copy I attemped to scan into PDF, it was too weak a
copy to come up in a graphic format.

I might have even dumped it. Can't find it.

But I'm happy to copy my hardcopy of the original notes from Dr. Embry
(they come out okay because I can darken just a bit) and mail to you,
all at my own expense.

I've sent four copies, if memory serves, so far in the last two years to
people that are either on this newsgroup, or were on this newsgroup and
come and visit to watch Doan work his little magic parlor tricks and laugh.

Hope things are coming along well with your grandson.

My wife has spec ed experience and is currently trying to find time to
study more about the autistic child, and was very good with them when
she was active. I did have a bit of experience and training related to
Asbergers Syndrom, but that's a long time ago. We finally figure out
about a third of our referred clients were victims of it.

Kane




June 19, 2003

The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety has funded traffic safety
research and produced reports going back to 1958. With one exception,
reports produced since 1994 are available free of charge in hardcopy
and as electronic files. Hardcopies of many of the earlier reports
are also available free of charge and those that are out-of-print can
be purchased for 10 cents per page plus $7.50 for shipping and
handling. For hardcopies, please email Fairley Washington with your
mailing address and the name(s) of the reports you�d like to receive.

1981

Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parenting
Training & Symbolic Modeling for Children; An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Dennis Embry, University of Kansas, James
L. Malfetti, Columbia University. Copies Available @ .10/page. (140
pgs.)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits





--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, toto wrote:



On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:10:46 -0800, Doan wrote:



I, on the other hand, OFFERED to provide this study to anyone that asked.
My offer still stand, anyone want a copy of this study, just email me.

Do you have it in a format ready for email. I don't give out my snail
mail to anyone I only know online. I am too busy to actually stick
around for this debate as I mentioned in another post.


Sorry, toto, all I have is paper copy.

In fact you only got it recently, meaning you lied for nearly a year:

'"I now have the study. It would be fun to see you do the dance now.
Go ahead! What is the sample size? Got you, "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Doan "'
From your post of Jan 29 this year.

Seems you are the habitual liar I've exposed you as being so many times.
Did you not recently post this information concerning the report?:

"Level: 1 - Reproducible in paper and microfiche; and, since 1993, in
electronic format; materials issued from January 1993 - July 2004 are
now available at no cost through this Web site "

Did you not then do one of your childish "I DARE YOU," numbers?

Daring me to use the link to the study?

Isn't it odd that you now claim you have only a paper copy but do not
offer her the inexpensive option of linking to the report electronically
and downloading it?


Showing you STUPIDITY again, ignoranus kane0? ;-)

The Embry study was done in 1981. The link said: "since 1993, in

R R R ...dummy boy, can you put something into an electronic format that
was printed previously?

How would this stop you from having offer both "Alina" and becca, and
Dorothy, this document in electronic format?

This is the kind of stupidity you have shown from the beginning, Doan.

Just like your phony debates with LaVonne, with Chris, with Gowtch, others.

You keep coming up with these impossible claims based on the most
assinine pieces of convoluted bull****, and you think no one can see it?

If it was DONE in 81, what would stop someone from providing it in
electronic format in 1993?

I transmit documents all the time that do not arrive on my desk
electronically. I simply scan them through OCR. Five minutes clean up in
a word processor, and zip.... out again as an attachment. Hell I do it
damn near every day in my profession. And so to millions of other people
these days.

Just how ****in' dumb ARE you.

electronic format".

AVEZ-VOUS UN PROBLEME AVEC L'ANGLAIS? ;-)

AVEZ-VOUS UN PROBLEME AVEC TU L'BRAIN?

Doan

How the hell do you get your shoes on the right feet?

R R R R

0:-


--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:26:47 -0800, "0:-"
wrote:

The Embry study was done in 1981. The link said: "since 1993, in

R R R ...dummy boy, can you put something into an electronic format that
was printed previously?

Well, you are asking him to scan a 140 page document, Kane.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:26:47 -0800, "0:-"
wrote:

The Embry study was done in 1981. The link said: "since 1993, in

R R R ...dummy boy, can you put something into an electronic format that
was printed previously?

Well, you are asking him to scan a 140 page document, Kane.

No, what he said is that it's been available electronically since 1993.


He seems to think I can link to it, why not you?

As for scanning, well, yeah. That does seem like asking a lot,
considering. 0:-

However I scanned it, from a pretty poor copy, the whole thing.

Of course I have a sheet feeder attachment and that speeds it up a tad.


When it wouldn't render in a PDF file clearly I just gave that up and
sent out hard copies I made on my copy machine. No big deal. I've sent
4 already. I don't mind the expense in a good cause. I even cover the
shipping.

You want one, you got one.

e-mail me privately.

We can work out a way to preserve your privacy, even from me, if you
wish. I'll wait for your e-mail.

Oh yeah, Doan's doing his usual cut and paste out of context bs.

The issue about teaching children to *cross the street* is NOT what the
experiment was about. It's a commentary on why developmentally it's
unsafe.

He unethically hides context. He's done it for years. You snicker
might have noticed it before.

Embry voices a clear concern about others trying to do that, and I
think you pointed out it's a "play safely away from the street,"
experiment. And that worked. Age being the mitigating developmental
factor, which I think you also might have mentioned.

Bringing up what Embry himself says won't work or shouldn't be done is
Doan's usual way of focusing on anything by the facts by pretending
they are the objective of the experiment.

Sad little boy, Doan.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Best, Kane