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#11
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A disconnect at camp
greccogirl wrote:
L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent. However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is correct; that's what I would do. Barbara |
#12
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A disconnect at camp
Our troop encourages Scouts to leave the electronic stuff at home,
however, what's so funny is now the Council office requires that we have cell phone contacts that can be reached on our trip in order to issue our tour permits. Most of the places we go, however don't have much service. Carol BSA Troop 8 GAC |
#13
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A disconnect at camp
Barbara wrote: Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. Exactly. I just want my kids to have the option of calling me regardless of the situation. My camping experience was a nightmare and I had no one to help me. I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent. However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is correct; that's what I would do. As will I. A lot of what went on at our camp was because of ill-hired counselors. The truth is, you really don't know who is looking after your kids at camp, and they are at the mercy of these people who have power over them. -L. |
#14
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A disconnect at camp
"Barbara" wrote in message oups.com... greccogirl wrote: L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. I wonder if it is possible to adequately screen for the right camp. If this **** was going on, I would not want my child in camp, with or without a cellphone. I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent. However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is correct; that's what I would do. Barbara |
#15
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A disconnect at camp
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 21:39:20 GMT, "StephanieTheGoofy"
wrote: "Barbara" wrote in message roups.com... greccogirl wrote: L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. I wonder if it is possible to adequately screen for the right camp. If this **** was going on, I would not want my child in camp, with or without a cellphone. It's possible, but it would take effort. I wouldn't want my child at a camp where this type of thing happens, either. It's the parent's job to find an adequate camp, and to teach children how to handle situations. Nan |
#16
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A disconnect at camp
Nan wrote:
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 21:39:20 GMT, "StephanieTheGoofy" wrote: "Barbara" wrote in message roups.com... greccogirl wrote: L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. I wonder if it is possible to adequately screen for the right camp. If this **** was going on, I would not want my child in camp, with or without a cellphone. It's possible, but it would take effort. I wouldn't want my child at a camp where this type of thing happens, either. It's the parent's job to find an adequate camp, and to teach children how to handle situations. You can try, but no matter what, things can happen. One attended the same local day camp for several years. We did a lot of investigation of the people running the camp, their policies in selecting counselors, safety, we spoke to other parents, we knew (and One knew) a lot of the kids there; we spoke to the counselors before camp began. But there were STILL two incidents last year. One involved an overnight trip. We asked about the arrangements, and were told that counselors would be in the cabin with the kids at night. Technically true. They just weren't counselors from our camp. One's counselor left in the late afternoon, and a stranger who just happened to be associated with the same organization running the camp took over. There is no way I would have allowed my son to go overnight had I known this. Nothing happened, but still.... The other involved a child (not mine) who was hurt in an activity and asked to call her mother; the counselor decided it wasn't serious, and denied her request. The child required emergency attention when she got home. As to teaching kids to deal with situations, sure; great idea. But sometimes, they just can't. They're still kids, after all. One has learning differences. If you didn't know that, you'd never realize it in casual (and sometimes even not so casual) contact. What sticks out like a sore thumb, though, is that he gets pulled out of class for therapy. I've always figured that would make him a prime target for teasing, so we've spent a lot of time discussing strategies and what he should do. But faced with a kid who would simply say nasty things to him every time he walked by, One didn't put it together. Would the school have put up with it had they known. No. But they didn't know. Things just *happen* no matter how careful you are. You can't control it all. Some people weigh those risks and decide that their kids need cell phones. Some weigh the risks and don't send their kids to camp (school, whatever). And some people weigh the risks and decide that the benefits of losing the electronic leash are greater than the risks. I don't think any of those decisions are inherently wrong. It may even depend upon your kid and his/her age, (We know kids who went to overnight camp for 8 weeks as soon as they turned 7. The issues they face are clearly different from 15 year olds. In fact, I'd be less worried about a little munchkin without a phone than about a teenager.) Barbara |
#17
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A disconnect at camp
On 9 Aug 2006 18:48:21 -0700, "Barbara" wrote:
One attended the same local day camp for several years. We did a lot of investigation of the people running the camp, their policies in selecting counselors, safety, we spoke to other parents, we knew (and One knew) a lot of the kids there; we spoke to the counselors before camp began. But there were STILL two incidents last year. One involved an overnight trip. We asked about the arrangements, and were told that counselors would be in the cabin with the kids at night. Technically true. They just weren't counselors from our camp. One's counselor left in the late afternoon, and a stranger who just happened to be associated with the same organization running the camp took over. There is no way I would have allowed my son to go overnight had I known this. Nothing happened, but still.... The other involved a child (not mine) who was hurt in an activity and asked to call her mother; the counselor decided it wasn't serious, and denied her request. The child required emergency attention when she got home. Of course there is always the possibility that something might happen. That possibility exists in *every* situation from daycare to school, to playing in the neighborhood. My disagreement is with the idea that children should be armed with cellphones "just in case", arbitrarily. As to teaching kids to deal with situations, sure; great idea. But sometimes, they just can't. They're still kids, after all. One has learning differences. If you didn't know that, you'd never realize it in casual (and sometimes even not so casual) contact. What sticks out like a sore thumb, though, is that he gets pulled out of class for therapy. I've always figured that would make him a prime target for teasing, so we've spent a lot of time discussing strategies and what he should do. But faced with a kid who would simply say nasty things to him every time he walked by, One didn't put it together. Would the school have put up with it had they known. No. But they didn't know. Well, all things considered, you'd pay more attention to your son's situation as you know what he needs to learn, to deal with situations. My nephew wouldn't be served well by the same basic lesson/info I'd teach my daughter, as he also has learning differences. Things just *happen* no matter how careful you are. You can't control it all. Some people weigh those risks and decide that their kids need cell phones. Some weigh the risks and don't send their kids to camp (school, whatever). And some people weigh the risks and decide that the benefits of losing the electronic leash are greater than the risks. I don't think any of those decisions are inherently wrong. It may even depend upon your kid and his/her age, (We know kids who went to overnight camp for 8 weeks as soon as they turned 7. The issues they face are clearly different from 15 year olds. In fact, I'd be less worried about a little munchkin without a phone than about a teenager.) I agree it's a case by case situation. As I said, I disagreed with Lyn's assertion that before kids had the use of cellphones, they got into trouble and couldn't handle it. Besides, a cellphone may not even serve the child if service isn't available! Nan |
#18
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A disconnect at camp
In article .com, Barbara
says... greccogirl wrote: L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. So - what - the kid at camp will call Mommy or Daddy from his handy little cell (which, of course, is left in his hands by said bullies or miscreants), and they'll come flying like eagles to his side to Save Their Child?? (Or, maybe teleportation has been discovered - part of the new Wireless World we're in, and they'll just BEAM over!) Or does it seem more reasonable that these problems be reported by the kid to his camp counsellors and/or his parents for further action? Including pulling them out of a bad camp environment if necessary. Really, this is all about the Invisible Electronic Umbilical Chord, and Momma-Bears and Papa-Bears pinning that Concerned Parent Merit Badge on their aprons and suits. I think it may also be that Ubiquitous Cell Phone Culture, where every "do you want skirt steak or london broil tonight" or "well, look in your sock drawer for them - did you ask your dad where you left them" question HAS to be asked and answered IMMEDIATELY or Life Falls Apart. I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent. However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is correct; that's what I would do. Naw, it's a silly position, no surprise from the author. Mamma Bear Supreme. I put these objections into the same category as the complaints from speeding drivers "but whattif I had my laboring wife about to have a baby". It's unlikely, and silly anysay (pros should be transporting). The reason why cell phones are often banned is because it impacts the camp environment and atmosphere to have kids IMing and yammering at each other across the camp. As well as needing to cut that invisible umbilical chord for some little time - it's called growing up! Although an *alternate* policy is "no cell phones visibie". That is, the child can have a cell for calling home in true emergencies, or after camp, or in case there is a need to shut down the camp early. So - they can carry the cell, but if it's out (and there's no accepted reason for it to be out; if it's out, it's assumed that it's out for use), it gets confiscated. No, not just for the day. That's what my son's daycamp, and his school district, has. So, would a policy like that make folks feel more comfortable? Banty -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm |
#19
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A disconnect at camp
Banty wrote:
In article .com, Barbara says... greccogirl wrote: L. wrote: greccogirl wrote: My god, what the children of the world do, before cell phones? I guess they were just abused by having to go to camp without a phone! ROTFLMAO A lot of them got in trouble and had no way to contact anyone for help. I want my child to have the means to contact me anytime, anywhere, regardless of anyone else's policies. -L. A lot of them? Doubtful! I went to camp all my life and never "got into trouble". I didn't know anyone who did! A child doesn't need a cell phone at camp, unless they are too immature to be there in the first place, or possibly his parents are too immature to let their kid out of their sight. Well, aren't you lucky! You never met anyone who was bullied at camp. Or who was placed with a group of kids who smoked/did drugs/were sexually promiscuous, and really didn't know how to get out of the situation. Had a counselor who harrassed them, or left the kids on their own while going out to smoke/yadda yadda. Was abused or molested. Otherwise faced a situation that s/he couldn't handle on his/her own. Well, that doesn't mean that those things don't happen, or that kids should be forced to face those things without parental assistance. So - what - the kid at camp will call Mommy or Daddy from his handy little cell (which, of course, is left in his hands by said bullies or miscreants), and they'll come flying like eagles to his side to Save Their Child?? (Or, maybe teleportation has been discovered - part of the new Wireless World we're in, and they'll just BEAM over!) Or does it seem more reasonable that these problems be reported by the kid to his camp counsellors and/or his parents for further action? Including pulling them out of a bad camp environment if necessary. IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF the situation is not one that needs immediate attention. But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on. You want a real story? I'll give you one. When I was 16, I went on a 6 week school-sponsored trip abroad. In the first week, I was molested by a tour guide (not one of our tour leaders). I spent the rest of the summer upset, withdrawn, fearful and crying. The group leaders never once asked me what was wrong; if they had, I would have told them. Instead, they threatened me -- if you don't buck up, we'll send you home alone, in shame; at the time, that seemed like an awful option. I didn't feel comfortable telling the group leaders. Within 2 weeks, virtually every kid in the group knew why I was so upset, but no one told the leaders. I begged to call my parents, but the *rules* were no calls. I wish I'd had a cell phone. it would have saved me weeks -- hell, years -- of pain. Really, this is all about the Invisible Electronic Umbilical Chord, and Momma-Bears and Papa-Bears pinning that Concerned Parent Merit Badge on their aprons and suits. Do you *really* think that it advances your argument to belittle and insult people who hold differing opinions? Or do you write in this manner to disguise the fact that you lack a single logical argument in favor of your position? I think it may also be that Ubiquitous Cell Phone Culture, where every "do you want skirt steak or london broil tonight" or "well, look in your sock drawer for them - did you ask your dad where you left them" question HAS to be asked and answered IMMEDIATELY or Life Falls Apart. I don't believe that cell phones are *necessary* for all kids who goes to overnight camp. Indeed, there's probably a lot to be said for cutting that cord. OTOH, I don't think that Lyn's position is out of line, overprotective, or otherwise ridiculous. IIRC, her son is now about 2 years old, so I don't think that overnight camp is imminent. However, whomever said that when the time comes -- if it comes -- she should seek out a camp that permits cell phones (and they do exist) is correct; that's what I would do. Naw, it's a silly position, no surprise from the author. Mamma Bear Supreme. Well, since I am the one espousing the position, I'll proudly bear the name. And why wouldn't I want to be known as someone who looks out for her child's best interests and tries to protect him? I put these objections into the same category as the complaints from speeding drivers "but whattif I had my laboring wife about to have a baby". It's unlikely, and silly anysay (pros should be transporting). I've never heard a speeder say that. I have, however, heard people lament today's safety devices while refusing to use them. *I'm a good driver. I've never been in an accident. I never wore seatbelts when I was a kid. There's no reason for my kid to be in a carseat* *Oh, c'mon. No one wore bike helmets when we were kids* Ad infinitum. Come to think of it, they're right. Most trips don't result in accidents; its probably 1 in a million for any given car trip that a baby will need the protection of a carseat. Same for bike helmets, using power mowers. I don't see the cell phone as being any different. The reason why cell phones are often banned is because it impacts the camp environment and atmosphere to have kids IMing and yammering at each other across the camp. As well as needing to cut that invisible umbilical chord for some little time - it's called growing up! Since I grew up just fine without ever going to overnight camp, I imagine that kids will grow up just fine with cell phones at camp. Its simply not an unreasonable thing to have, if the camp allows it. Although an *alternate* policy is "no cell phones visibie". That is, the child can have a cell for calling home in true emergencies, or after camp, or in case there is a need to shut down the camp early. So - they can carry the cell, but if it's out (and there's no accepted reason for it to be out; if it's out, it's assumed that it's out for use), it gets confiscated. No, not just for the day. That's what my son's daycamp, and his school district, has. So, would a policy like that make folks feel more comfortable? We've made a decision that for us, the risks of not having a phone at school -- at a point when One is still taking the school bus -- or day camp are minimal. He comes home at the end of the day and can report any problems or incidents to us, or we can observe behavioral changes and look into why they're occurring. Its different if the kid is away for 8 weeks. It will also be different for me when One starts taking public transit to and from school, and otherwise going places without parental supervision. What would be the advantage of allowing a child to have a phone, but not letting him use it? It seems rather silly to me. Barbara |
#20
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A disconnect at camp
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote: IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF the situation is not one that needs immediate attention. But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on. IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell phones were invented! Nan |
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