School disciplinarian removed 4 punishing by sentencing

A form of corporal punishment?

Well, the hands may become cramped and calloused. Gimmee a break.


Posted on Thu, Feb. 19, 2004



School debates disciplinary methods
At Cramp Elementary in West Kensington, an employee's job was shifted after he
used a repetitive-writing punishment.
By Susan Snyder
Inquirer Staff Writer

At Cramp Elementary in West Kensington, there's an argument about how students
should be disciplined, and veteran educator Fred Creel is at its center.

The clash between using stern, "old-school" methods, which Creel employed for
seven years as disciplinarian, and teaching students to adopt
"self-discipline," favored by principal Adrienne Carpenter, came to a head
yesterday at a raucous meeting of more than 60 parents.

Many parents demanded the return of Creel, who was transferred out of his post
to a teaching position at Cramp in October after parents complained he made
disruptive students write sentences such as "I will not hit or head-butt
someone" 100 times.

Officials at Cramp, a 900-student kindergarten-through-fifth-grade school,
decided the writing assignments were a form of corporal punishment, and
corporal punishment is prohibited by the district.

Creel - who has worked 27 years at Cramp - also was accused of grabbing
students and calling them names.

Yesterday, Creel said, "Never in my life have I gone after a child to hurt a
child." He said he did restrain children when they were fighting. And he said
he never called children names, but told them: "We have no animals in school.
Animals throw food. Animals spit food. Animals play with food. Animals open
their mouths and show people what they're eating."

Many parents at the meeting say that Creel's stern touch is needed and that
student behavior has slipped dramatically since he was moved.

Carpenter, who declined to comment on complaints about Creel, said she had
appointed a new assistant principal - formerly a counselor - to oversee
discipline.

"He has the expertise and interventions that children need when they find
themselves in altercations, arguments," she said. "He also has the
interpersonal skills to deal with parents."

The school continues to support sending disruptive children to a time-out room
if needed and will suspend students for serious infractions, she said.

But Cramp, like other schools, has decided that repetitive-writing assignments
are not acceptable, said Sonia Perez, a regional administrator overseeing
discipline issues at schools in the Kensington area.

"To repeat a sentence is not a form of disciplining a child. It's a form of
punishing a child. Every opportunity that we have, we should be teaching
children self-management," she said.

At the meeting, Creel said he assigned the sentence-writing as a way to let
parents know the infractions that their children were committing and to make
children think about their mistakes.

Students would be required to complete the assignments at home.

There is no districtwide policy that defines repetitive writing as corporal
punishment, said district spokesman Fernando Gallard. But both district
officials and a national discipline expert said the practice increasingly is
frowned upon.

"I don't view it as corporal punishment. It would have to be physically
painful," said Irwin Hyman, a Temple University professor and director of the
National Center for the Study of Corporal Punishment.

"But it's stupid," he added. "Writing is something that kids should learn to
enjoy. I wouldn't object to having them write an essay, something that is
supposed to make you think."

Harvey Rice, the state's safe-schools advocate, condoned the discipline tactic.

"It's better than sending the kid home and suspending him and having him run
the streets," Rice said. "We've got to get back to some kind of basic common
sense here. That's an appropriate way of trying to get a message to someone
about their behavior, and we should support that."

Both Miriam Diaz, president of the Home and School Association, and Jeremy
Centeno, a first-grade teacher and Cramp's teachers' union representative,
backed Creel and said they saw nothing abusive or wrong with his methods.

"When Mr. Creel would go into the lunchroom, you could hear a pin drop. Go in
there now," Diaz said, adding that only three parents complained about Creel
while many more supported him.

One parent, Lourdes Sierra, spoke against Creel at the meeting.

"You look out for him. I'll look out for the children," Sierra said.

Later, she said she had seen Creel manhandle students and belittle them.

"He would grab them by the arm, throw them against the chairs. I saw him grab a
boy by the neck in the yard. The boy was saying, 'Get off me, get off me,' and
he just kept going at him," Sierra said.

At several points, the meeting became a shouting match with lots of
participants. Creel waded into the fray and quieted the crowd, using the same
tactic that he uses with children: "One, hands up. Two, mouths closed."


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Contact staff writer Susan Snyder at 215-854-4693 or .





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© 2004 Philadelphia Inquirer and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.philly.com

Fern5827 wrote:

Officials at Cramp, a 900-student kindergarten-through-fifth-grade school,
decided the writing assignments were a form of corporal punishment, and
corporal punishment is prohibited by the district.

Writing assignments as you describe are punishment, unlikely to deter
the behavior but likely to discourage future enjoyment of writing. They
are to be avoided but they are not corporal punishment.

Creel - who has worked 27 years at Cramp - also was accused of grabbing
students and calling them names.

Grabbing students and calling them names is certainly a poor form of
guidance and discipline and indicates a desperate adult.

Yesterday, Creel said, "Never in my life have I gone after a child to hurt a
child." He said he did restrain children when they were fighting. And he said
he never called children names, but told them: "We have no animals in school.
Animals throw food. Animals spit food. Animals play with food. Animals open
their mouths and show people what they're eating."

So, he compared children to animals. I'm sure this was meant to be a
derogatory comparison or he wouldn't have make such a ridiculous
comparison. I have always had animals in my home -- cats, dogs, guinnea
pigs, mice, gerbils, hamsters, an iguana and a snack. I have yet to see
an animal throw food, spit food, or play with food. I have yet to see
an animal open it's mouth to show people what they are eating.

Creel doesn't sound like the most informed or the brightest bulb on the
planet, does he?

Many parents at the meeting say that Creel's stern touch is needed and that
student behavior has slipped dramatically since he was moved.

Carpenter, who declined to comment on complaints about Creel, said she had
appointed a new assistant principal - formerly a counselor - to oversee
discipline.

"He has the expertise and interventions that children need when they find
themselves in altercations, arguments," she said. "He also has the
interpersonal skills to deal with parents."

The school continues to support sending disruptive children to a time-out room
if needed and will suspend students for serious infractions, she said.

He may have better skills than Creel (who doesn't?) but if he views
guidance and disipline as only time out and suspension, he's only a
slight improvement.

But Cramp, like other schools, has decided that repetitive-writing assignments
are not acceptable, said Sonia Perez, a regional administrator overseeing
discipline issues at schools in the Kensington area.

"To repeat a sentence is not a form of disciplining a child. It's a form of
punishing a child. Every opportunity that we have, we should be teaching
children self-management," she said.

And, if we want literate children who enjoy reading and writing, do we
want to use writing as a punishment?

Sounds like good-bye and good riddance to Mr. Creel.

LaVonne

At the meeting, Creel said he assigned the sentence-writing as a way to let
parents know the infractions that their children were committing and to make
children think about their mistakes.

Students would be required to complete the assignments at home.

There is no districtwide policy that defines repetitive writing as corporal
punishment, said district spokesman Fernando Gallard. But both district
officials and a national discipline expert said the practice increasingly is
frowned upon.

"I don't view it as corporal punishment. It would have to be physically
painful," said Irwin Hyman, a Temple University professor and director of the
National Center for the Study of Corporal Punishment.

"But it's stupid," he added. "Writing is something that kids should learn to
enjoy. I wouldn't object to having them write an essay, something that is
supposed to make you think."

Harvey Rice, the state's safe-schools advocate, condoned the discipline tactic.

"It's better than sending the kid home and suspending him and having him run
the streets," Rice said. "We've got to get back to some kind of basic common
sense here. That's an appropriate way of trying to get a message to someone
about their behavior, and we should support that."

Both Miriam Diaz, president of the Home and School Association, and Jeremy
Centeno, a first-grade teacher and Cramp's teachers' union representative,
backed Creel and said they saw nothing abusive or wrong with his methods.

"When Mr. Creel would go into the lunchroom, you could hear a pin drop. Go in
there now," Diaz said, adding that only three parents complained about Creel
while many more supported him.

One parent, Lourdes Sierra, spoke against Creel at the meeting.

"You look out for him. I'll look out for the children," Sierra said.

Later, she said she had seen Creel manhandle students and belittle them.

"He would grab them by the arm, throw them against the chairs. I saw him grab a
boy by the neck in the yard. The boy was saying, 'Get off me, get off me,' and
he just kept going at him," Sierra said.

At several points, the meeting became a shouting match with lots of
participants. Creel waded into the fray and quieted the crowd, using the same
tactic that he uses with children: "One, hands up. Two, mouths closed."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Contact staff writer Susan Snyder at 215-854-4693 or .





--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

© 2004 Philadelphia Inquirer and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.philly.com

It amazes me how parents of children who misbehave in school are always
there to defend there poor little children when the school disciplines them.
This sends the message to the child that in life they should not be held
accountable for their actions. It's no surprise why these children cause so
much trouble in schools today. And people wonder why zero tolerance laws and
suspension in schools are so common. What other alternatives do you have
when reasoning does not work? I guess these parents would rather their child
be suspended and have a mark on their school records instead of having to
write 100 sentences. BTW I had a coworker who's parents made her brothers
write 500 sentences before while kneeling in rice! They got the punishment
because they hurt their sister to the point where she had to go to the
hospital. One hundred lines is nothing. Actually these parents are brats
themselves and cause the same problems with their bosses at work that their
children cause in school.

Billy sent in:

And people wonder why zero tolerance laws and
suspension in schools are so common

Wasn't there a murder of a sub teacher yesterday in WI by an Eagle scout &
Honor student?

I guess these parents would rather their child
be suspended and have a mark on their school records instead of having to
write 100 sentences. BTW I had a

I remember in 2nd grade having to miss assembly to practing cursive writing my
"R" 's.

I had a coworker who's parents made her brothers
write 500 sentences before while kneeling in rice! They got the

....Ouch. Sounds like a religious school.....


My family pretty much supported the school. Then again, I was a good student.

Unfortunately, when the little children become teens, lock-up is the preferred
punishment. It is a rite of passage in some inner-cities for boys AND GIRLS.

We as a society have no compunctions locking up these teens. We did not act
early enough to re-direct the youngsters toward more productive behavior.

Then....the legal system GETS 'em.

On 26 Feb 2004 13:58:14 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

Billy sent in:

And people wonder why zero tolerance laws and
suspension in schools are so common

Wasn't there a murder of a sub teacher yesterday in WI by an Eagle
scout &
Honor student?

Just not spanked enough, presumably.

I guess these parents would rather their child
be suspended and have a mark on their school records instead of
having to
write 100 sentences. BTW I had a

I remember in 2nd grade having to miss assembly to practing cursive
writing my
"R" 's.

Memoreeeeeees, memoreeeeeeees, good old timer,
memoreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

I had a coworker who's parents made her brothers
write 500 sentences before while kneeling in rice! They got the

...Ouch. Sounds like a religious school.....

Naw, just one of those "alternatives to spanking that are proven not
to work any better than spanking" thus proving that spanking
alternatives don't work.


My family pretty much supported the school. Then again, I was a good
student.

Were you lying then, 2 years ago, or are you lying now?

Or are you suggesting that while you were raised one way other
children should be raised another....cause they are all baaaaaaaad
children?

http://tinyurl.com/2abzj

Unfortunately, when the little children become teens, lock-up is the
preferred
punishment. It is a rite of passage in some inner-cities for boys
AND GIRLS.

That didn't happen to your sibs and you? Now what would have been the
difference and all, your family and inner-cities kids being raised the
same with severe discipline measures and all? smile

We as a society have no compunctions locking up these teens. We did
not act
early enough to re-direct the youngsters toward more productive
behavior.

What DID the parents do with those children "early enough to re-direct
the youngsters toward more productive behavior" Pistel?

You turned out fine and your parents certainly disciplined you with
good old fashioned punishment, right?

http://tinyurl.com/2abzj

Then....the legal system GETS 'em.

Must be because they were among that 5 to 10% of kids that weren't
properly spanked. Those unspanked kids just grow up to be spoiled
brats lying, committing violent criminal acts, and doing drugs.

That Your problem, Petunia?

http://tinyurl.com/2abzj

Kane

Fern5827 wrote:

Billy sent in:


And people wonder why zero tolerance laws and
suspension in schools are so common


Wasn't there a murder of a sub teacher yesterday in WI by an Eagle scout &
Honor student?

I don't know, Fern. Was "there a murder of a sub teacher yesterday in
WI by an Eagle scout & Honor student"? And if there was, what do you
think is the relevance

I remember in 2nd grade having to miss assembly to practing cursive writing my
"R" 's.

I certainly hope you have great cursive "R's." What did that teach you
about why you had to miss assembly?


I had a coworker who's parents made her brothers
write 500 sentences before while kneeling in rice! They got the


...Ouch. Sounds like a religious school.....

Why would this sound like a religious school?


My family pretty much supported the school. Then again, I was a good student.

Because you learned to write "R's" as a punishment?

Unfortunately, when the little children become teens, lock-up is the preferred
punishment. It is a rite of passage in some inner-cities for boys AND GIRLS.

Perhaps passing a law that sends a clear message to parents that
discipline is about teaching, not punishment, would help. Perhaps
passing a law that protects the rights of children from assault would
help. Perhaps a massive education program that teaches parents how to
parent and provide guidance without punishing, hitting, or hurting their
children would help achieve your goals.

So why do you fight so hard for the supposed rights of families to abuse
their children? You supported a church that hung children naked in
front of the congregation and beat those children, as long as there was
parental consent.

We as a society have no compunctions locking up these teens. We did not act
early enough to re-direct the youngsters toward more productive behavior.

Yes, we need to re-direct teenagers toward more productive behavior.
Why do you fight so hard against agencies trying to do exactly what you
recommend, and fight so hard for parental rights, while ignoring the
rights of children and teens that suddenly seem to be in your "concern"
in box.

Then....the legal system GETS 'em.