If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
| (Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:34:20 -0700, "bobb"
wrote: More stupid laws. First, consider how many people had to buy a larger vehicle, perhaps even an SUV, in order to fit three or four car seats. Consider how many car seat must be purchased, enriching big business. Consider the hassel of getting three kids in and out of car seats during shopping trips and other places. Consider the distraction to any driver who much reach behind to comfort a child tied into a car seat. How would you like to be secured to a seat for any length of time having your movements severly restricted? I say this because there are NO safety advantages to support the use of car seats. None.. noda. I e-mailed the NTSB as well as the CDC who keep records of accidents and injuries.. but they have not done a vehicle 'hurt' report for years. Fatalities, yes.. but not injuries. Digging into the depths of information I can find on the net suggests there are many, many, more serious injuries caused by so-called safety devices such as airbags, seat belts, and the shoulder harrnness than anyone (the government) wants to admit. For instance, I never found any indication of eye injuries or resulting blindness due to exploding air bags.. and pointed out on a recent episode of Dateline. For some, I'm sure.. that's worse than death! Head and neck injuries, spinal cord damage, and severe concusion have occured under circumstances when either a drive or passenger would've walked away unharmed... including car seats. Others have been trapped in burning vehicles or submerged underwater yet none of these events can be found in any government data. In fact, hospitals do not identify such injuries nor do police reports. I have found articles from General Motors that question the protection said to be afforded by seat belts and/or airbags... and car seats. In fact, for the last five years their study which suggest no advanage, has been continued for further evaluation at the instanace of the federal government. What prompted my interest was the use of child 'safety' seats that have resulted in serioius injury. Complaints from many parents are begining to surface. The tact used today is to blame the parents for improper use of the car seat.. that bull. Think about it. One needs to consider that a baby's head is larger and heavier than the rest of his body. I sudden stop or crash causes the baby's head to thrust forward while is body is held securely in place. The result is had, neck and back injury as well has other internal damage. Injuries such as this are never reported.. and if the media does pick it up.. they report it in the sense that the car seat prevented death without stopping to consider there would have been no injury. Admittedly, most of these injuries are 'minor', meaning they are not pemaently disabling but what of the 100's who are not so lucky. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 500 children are killed every year in fatal car wrecks. Oh... did you think the total was much higher? Car wrecks that not even a car seat could have prevented... but what of the deaths attributed to car seats? Every year, hundreds of children suffer serious and often fatal injuries in automobile accidents, even though they were restrained in child safety seats or booster seats. Many of these injuries and deaths could have been prevented and most of these children could have survived the accidents without any serious injuries if they had not restrained in child safety seats.. a.quote by the National Safety Forum. When only 500 children are killed annually.. yet hundreds suffer serious and fatal injuries as the direct result of car seats... please tell me how you can considered them safe?? We, the public are being deceived. Why? Safety, even imagined safety, sells. Good for business... not good for the people. Before you turn the heat up on me.. do some research yourself. I suggest many in this thread to really too young to recall the history of seat belts, etc.... but it's been a long, open battle. Not unlike that of the air bag which was found in disfavor a few years ago when children and older people were being killed in accidents where no injury would have resulted. Engineers are still trying to 'perfect; the air bag... less pressure, aimed below the eyes, etc.. because of government mandates... not because they are safe. bobb If your analysis is correct this is too important a subject to leave out citations with source access included. Please include actual quotes and the source so we may look for ourselves. By the way, the problem of children's heads being disproportionally large for their bodies, compared to adults, is solved usually by the strong suggestion that child car seats for infants and small toddlers be installed child facing the rear, in the front seat. That also protects them from the airbag, and cars are now coming with passenger airbag disablers. That also removes the problem you stated of having to turn to comfort a distressed child in the back seat. And one more item I noticed that bears comment: children are not unaccustomed to being confined. It's a condition of the womb and is common in many cultures...including our own american native populations. It usually makes them feel more relaxed. Some parents have been known to keep a car seat child carrier in the house for the fussy baby that has trouble falling to sleep. My own boy was an exception. He could get out of any of the primative early car seats, and did, regularly. But then he was special...r r r r. But then he could also fall asleep leaning against a wall if he took the notion. I've no investment in auto child safety devices one way or another other than to care about child safety in general. So, citations and sources please. Thanks, Kane |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
"CPS Darren" wrote in message om... By the way, the problem of children's heads being disproportionally large for their bodies, compared to adults, is solved usually by the strong suggestion that child car seats for infants and small toddlers be installed child facing the rear, in the front seat. Thanks for that observation, Kane. It's one I've ranted about for years and I 'heard' there are some new car seats that will be facing to the rear. Which makes me wonder... will the older style be out-lawed? Almost every current convertible model in the USA has a 30, 33 or 35 pound rear-facing limit. Some are tall enough to keep average sized kids rear-facing to 3 years and beyond. Rear-facing is safest, and keeping children rear-facing for as long as possible is the recommendation from the American Academy of Pediatrics and almost every child passenger safety advocacy group. Sweden has an extremely low motor vehicle fatality rate for young kids, in part because they are among the most progressive at keeping kids rear-facing, often up to 3-5 years old. Every year, hundreds of children suffer serious and often fatal injuries in automobile accidents, even though they were restrained in child safety seats or booster seats. Motor vehicle crashes remain the #1 cause of fatal injury for all kids in age groups 1-14. Unrestrained kids account for over half those fatalities, according to the CDC. Various statistics can be found he I note that unrestrained kids account over half of the fatalities... while the lessor half died using restraints. Sounds sorta like 50/50 to me... especially when we nothing of the type of accidents involved. My site found the same observation as yours, except my age group was 1 -11 and I thank you for the additional sites but let me add this.... for the most part, I am speaking of injury.. not the motality rate. I'm sure child seats do not cause many, if any, deaths... but they do cause serious and disabling injury. .. Additionally , and I quote, ..."there were many of these injuries and deaths that could have been prevented and most of these children could have survived the accidents without any serious injuries if they had NOT been restrained in child safety seats". National Safety Forum. However, Every year, hundreds of children suffer serious and often eatal injuries in automobile accidents, even though they were restrained in child safety seats or booster seats" National Safety Forum. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/spotlite/chldseat.htm http://www.safekids.org/tier3_cd.cfm...&folder_id=540 Many of these injuries and deaths could have been prevented and most of these children could have survived the accidents without any serious injuries if they had not restrained in child safety seats... National Safety Forum. Would you kindly link a reference to this organization and quote, please? It seems to me, there is a single belief that thousands of kids under the age of six are being killed or injured in automobile accidents.. which just isn't true either. For the numbers, please access the CDC data for any recent year. In the subgroup for unintentional fatal injury, motor vehicle crashes will be the #1 cause, and be higher than any other cause until the 35-44 age bracket. The CDC also keeps the WiSQARS database for non-fatal injuries. For non-fatal injuries, falls are usually the top cause, though motor vehicle crashes are typically in the top 10 causes. My immeditate recall agrees with your data... missing though, are automobile injuries by a catagory that might suggest a causative factor. Padded dashboards found favor many years age.. but were quickly dropped. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/ Highway fatalities have dropped significantly over the years. Increases in seatbelt and child restraint use are a part of this, along with safer vehicles and better education about impaired driving. While it's possible we're all being duped in some grand conspiracy to force us to use restraints, I personally don't believe this is the case. I have little information about fatalities but I recall reading somewhere that there has been little change since the 60's... but please don't quote me on that. It might be worth talking to professional drivers and looking at their restraint systems to see if the 5-point harnesses in child restraints have any technical merit. A crash reconstructionist at your local, county or state police department is another good source of real world information. They probably see as many grisly crashes as anyone. Actually not so, they do not 'see' much. As you say, though, they try to reconstruct an accident which is darn near impossible except for the obvious and ones and again there are many variables. I tried my darnest to find the site with comments from at least on of the big three automakers suggesting car seats and the like offer little protection but I can't find it. It is a rather important and profound statement and wish I could pass on the entire article. Off the subject.. but along with that site I'm looking for was an announcement by three insurance agencies that found anti-lock braking systems the causative factor in many accidents, including roll-overs, and were calling for their elimination. Anti-lock brakes were reviewed in that same light by 60 minutes, 48 hours, or whatever sometime back.... but that was the last word... nothing since. Not surprisingly, many are child passenger safety advocates. Other good people to reference are emergency room surgeons. They have a name for the severe abdominal injuries associated with lap belts, "Seatbelt Syndrome." Unfortunately, this syndrome is often the subject of case studies when kids put the shoulder belts behind their back. This is a common scenario when the seatbelts don't fit them, and a booster isn't used to obtain the correct fit. Hmm... interesting.. I didn't know they had a name for that.. and I'm not sure it is reported for statistical purposes... at least I couldn't find that kind of data. I have yet to seach all of the sites you provided. There's a lot to read. BTW... when was the first time you heard about this 'syndrome'? Has anyone suggested that kids SHOULDN'T use seat belts to prevent that kind of injury? .. I have an e-mail that the NTSB sent me a while back... they used the word 'tunneling' wherein a child does not propertly fit the lap belt of shoulder harrness. They scurried around my original questions and never did give me an answer. I'll post a copy later tonight. I have to say at least you did some homework.. and a rather good job, too, except I'm trying to ferret out Hurt reports.. not Mortaliy reports. Darren http://www.car-safety.org |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
ping darren
Here my e-mail response from the CDC. I only wish to note these injuries
are not known to the general public. I recall the cases made AGAINST lap belts when the shoulder harness was first introducted. I was astounded that the injury data (and deaths) had never before been made public in those cases as well. Anyway, here's the e-mail.... bobb Winston and Durbin (two study groups) note that when children are prematurely graduated to seat belts from child seats, the lap belt rides up over the abdomen and the shoulder belt crosses the neck or face instead of the shoulder. This places the child at risk of submarining (sliding out of the lap belt during a crash) and for injuries to the neck as a result of the poor fit of the shoulder belt. Due to this poor fit, the shoulder belt is sometimes placed under the child's arm or behind their back. This reduces the belt's effectiveness by allowing excessive forward movement in a crash. Rapid bending about a poorly positioned lap belt increases the risk of intra-abdominal and spinal cord injuries, and brain injury due to the impact of the child's head with their knees or the vehicle interior. Citation: Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) June 1999, Vol 281, pages 2070-72. Thank you for your comment, Ann Dellinger, PhD, MPH Epidemiologist and Team Leader Motor Vehicle Injury Prevention Team CDC |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
abacus wrote:
(CPS Darren) wrote in message . com... Motor vehicle crashes remain the #1 cause of fatal injury for all kids in age groups 1-14. Unrestrained kids account for over half those fatalities, according to the CDC. Just a quick point on statistics he Unless we know what percent of children are riding restrained versus unrestrained, the percent of fatalites in each category is not particularly helpful. If 90% of children ride restrained, but account only 50% of fatalities then restraints are saving lives. If 50% of children ride restrained, then restraints aren't making any difference. If only 10% of children ride restrained, but still account for 50% of fatalities, then restraints are making the situation worse. Without a base rate for comparison, no conclusions can be drawn from the statistics presented. Agreed. FWIW, the statistics I have seen show seatbelt compliance for all riders to be in the 65-80% range in most states and since all states mandate the use of restraints for children under the age of 2, one would expect the rate of compliance for children to be higher than for the general population. I think it is probably safe to assume that the use of restraints for infants and toddlers is in the 80-90% range, in the 70-80% range for young children (roughly 3-6yo), and in the general population range of 65-80% for children aged 6 and up. All of which would indicate that the use of restraints *does* make a significant difference in safety. -- Be well, Barbara (Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom) See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop: "Loose weight, feel great!" -- fair booth sign What does it all mean? I have *no* idea. But it's my life and I like it. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
(abacus) wrote in message . com...
(CPS Darren) wrote in message . com... Motor vehicle crashes remain the #1 cause of fatal injury for all kids in age groups 1-14. Unrestrained kids account for over half those fatalities, according to the CDC. Just a quick point on statistics he Unless we know what percent of children are riding restrained versus unrestrained, the percent of fatalites in each category is not particularly helpful. If 90% of children ride restrained, but account only 50% of fatalities then restraints are saving lives. If 50% of children ride restrained, then restraints aren't making any difference. If only 10% of children ride restrained, but still account for 50% of fatalities, then restraints are making the situation worse. Without a base rate for comparison, no conclusions can be drawn from the statistics presented. Various statistics can be found he http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/spotlite/chldseat.htm http://www.safekids.org/tier3_cd.cfm...&folder_id=540 You are exactly right. The same logic can be used to counter the data "supporting" the hypothesis that restraining passengers with seatbelts causes more injuries/fatalities. In any case, I hope there is no dispute that motor vehicle crashes are the #1 cause of death for all children ages 1 and higher. If you believe that the proper use of child restraints is a danger to your child, then by all means you have the choice not to use them (subject to traffic violations in some states, of course). I hope anyone making such a choice studies this topic carefully and personally accepts the consequences of their actions. At the very least, perhaps this statistic will make those who shun restraints consider more carefully their choices on vehicle selection and impaired driving when kids are onboard. Incidentally, some usage statistics can be found at the links I provided. Relevant to this thread on booster laws, this one is given at one of the links you may have read: "Booster seats have been shown to decrease injuries for children ages 4 to 8 when compared with seat belt use alone. During 2000, 376 children ages 4 to 8 years died in motor vehicle crashes in the United States. Of these, 46% were unrestrained and 36% were restrained in a car seat belt, without a booster seat (NHTSA 2001)." If I read it correctly, that would seem to indicate that 8% of these cases were using boosters seats. Plus, some of those 8% using boosters may not have used them correctly (more than half based on those we see at local events). Regards, Darren |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:27:56 -0700, "bobb"
wrote: Friends of mine in the emergency medical professions have seen many infants and children being hospitalized as a direct result of restraint systems.... How many of these, however, are a direct result of improper use of such systems. As with seat belts and shoulder belts when the restraint is not properly fitted, they can cause injury As a short woman, the shoulder belt is a problem for me because it does not stay in the proper position unless I get special positioners for it. To use a carseat properly for the best protection for infants and children: http://www.child-safety-alerts.com/c...ety-seats.html Child Safety Seats Using a child safety seat correctly makes a big difference. A child safety seat may not protect your child in a crash if it isn't used correctly and installed properly in your vehicle. Take a minute to Check To Be Sure...... All Children age 12 and under should ride properly restrained in the back seat!!!! Do You Have The Instructions? * Always read the child seat use and installation instruction manual. Also, read your vehicle owner manual seat belt and child seat installation section. Does Your Child Ride in the Correct Safety Seat? Infants, from birth to about age 1 and at least 20 pounds should ride in rear facing safety seats, in the back seat - never in the front seat where a front mounted passenger air bag is present. * Harness straps should be at or below the infants shoulders, and the straps should be snug. When snug only one adult finger should fit between the child's chest and the harness and the straps should lie in a relatively straight line without sagging. * Place the harness retainer clip at armpit level, this helps to keep the harness straps positioned properly. * Infants who weigh 20 lbs. or more before 1 year should ride in a safety seat rated for heavier infants, some convertible seats are rated up to about 30 pounds rear facing. Children 1 year and over 20 pounds may ride forward facing in the back seat * Children should ride in a safety seat with full harness until they are 40 pounds. * Harness straps should be at or above child's shoulders which means that harness straps should be threaded through the top slots of the child seat in most cases. Harness should be snug so that only one adult finger can fit between the child's chest and the harness and straps should lie in a relatively straight line without sagging. * Harness retainer clips, when provided, should be at armpit level which helps keep the harness straps positioned properly on the child's shoulders. Children between 40 -80 pounds should ride in a belt-positioning booster seat, using the adult lap and shoulder belt, in the back seat. Booster seats should be used until the adult lap and shoulder belt fit them properly. Boosters are just that - they "boost a child up" providing a taller sitting height so the adult lap and shoulder belt fit * Most children will not fit the adult lap and shoulder belt alone until they can sit with their back against the vehicle seat back cushion with their knees bent over the seat cushion edge and feet on the floor. * Boosters should be used as "in between" safety devices for children who have outgrown a convertible seat at 40 pounds and the lap and shoulder belt alone, because the adult lap and shoulder belt typically do not fit a child this size. * Belt-positioning boosters can only be used with both the lap and shoulder belt across the child. The shoulder belt should be snug against the child's chest, resting across the collar bone and the lap belt should lay low across the child's lap/upper thigh area - never across the stomach. ****If only a lap belt is available in the rear seating positions, an option may be to contact the vehicle dealer to see if retrofit shoulder belts can be installed. Another option may be to install products which can be used with a lap belt only such as a speciality-made harness or vest. Contact the Auto Safety Hotline at (888) 327-4236 for additional information. Boosters with harness systems, and high-backs are fairly new products. When used with the harness, these seats are typically recommended for use by children who weigh between 30 and 40 pounds, after 40 pounds the harness should be removed, converting to a belt-positioning booster which can be used up to 60-80 pounds. Belt-positioning boosters are recommended for children who are not yet physically mature enough to properly fit an adult lap and shoulder belt. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. Outer Limits |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
I'm still doing a lot of reading and will withhold comment for the moment. Both you and Abacus present thoughful and intelligent arguments. I will admit a long time bias against lap belts and later, the shoulder harness. My dander really got up when air bags killed and injured more people than than then number of lives the experts 'estimated' were being saved. With a great sense of never before seen logic... these same experts suggested passenger airbags could be disabled... yet in the face of this outstanding logic many (as reported by the media) were fighting against that option. Most recent change now calls for slower inflation time and the air bag is to be directed below the face to prevent blindness. Yes, there are beleivers, and there are cynics. Friends of mine in the emergency medical professions have seen many infants and children being hospitalized as a direct result of restraint systems.... when in all probability the injuries would be of a lessor nature if the children were not restrained. On the other hand they will also tell of instnaces where they thought a restraint system really worked but I am talking about the slow speed crash... the typical fender bender. These are the most common types of accidents and the most frequent, yet the serious injury rate seems awfully high. I guess we'd have to have to first agree a broken arm is less serious than neck and spinal injuries... all of which are probably due to restraint systems. For these types of injuries the onus in recent years has been to point fingers at parent's misuse of car seats. When it was pointed out that the shoulder harness was causing all too many serious injuries the 'experts' claimed they were due to misuse, too. The obvious intent of the air bag is to over-come the 'misuse' of the shoulder harness. What is not often mentiioned is that the suggested 'misuse' often results in life-long disabling neck and back injuries.. including parapalgia... which some would gladly exchange for a broken nose or broken teeth. To merely look that the worst cases where mortality is a factor distorts the entire picture. I could suggest in those instances we peak beyond the intention of any restraint system because they are so many other contributing factors that are unknown. Medical services in some areas are really out-standing peform real life-saving techniques... in other areas victim might well bleed to death or suffer additional injury during transport to a hospital. In those instances is it really important to know if a restraint system was effective or not? For statistical purposes the death is enter on either side of the ledger. Often given little merit, is the loose cargo carried inside the vehicle at the time of impact. These become missiles as the car suddenly stops or changes direction upon impact and death or injury is not dependant upon restraint systems. Once again, for statiscal purposes, a record is made to note if a restraint system was in place or not. It could be implied the cause of death is less important...he died of injuries. Thanks for the reading materials... and your insights bobb |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
If booster seats work, great! But too many laws like this
are like buying version 1.00 of a computer software package. California REQUIRED fire retardant chemicals in all furniture. This crept into stores nationwide. Firefighters learned that smoke from them was WORSE, more dangerous. But that was glossed over UNTIL they discovered kids living around the furniture had minute traces of the harmful chemicals in their bloodstreams. NOW California is requiring all of those chemicals to be removed from furniture manufacture. I for one am really tired of these UNFORESEEN consequences sneaking up on us all the time. I could cite numerous examples where somebody comes up with some bright idea, and knee jerk it into place imposed on everybody. THEN they realize that they probably should have tested it out a little more carefully. A big issue in Child Protection is PREVENTIVE REMOVALS. I concede that for known threats like MENTAL ILLNESS, alcoholism and addiction to hard drugs like Meth, that PREVENTIVE removals are wise. But using that label when there is no major factor like those, that sort of Carte Blanche leads to large agency abuses based on whim. Having only touched a booster maybe twice in my lifetime, I have a concern that propping the kid up higher in the car could lead to more torque/leverage applied in an accident. In other words, while the straps might work better, the kids life depends EVEN MORE on the straps because of the jacked up height and center of gravity. To point out the forces I'm thinking about, magine if the booster seat jacked the kid up 2 feet higher and miraculously the straps could still fit perfectly. The "top heavy" effect exaggerated here is what I'm concerned with on normal booster seats. Goes against the ideas of low slung, low to the ground that usually work to your advantage. But I wouldn't want this to be applied "knee jerk fashion" without exhaustive testing. Unlike a lot of knee jerk political impositions, I reserve an element of uncertainty. But I am also quite dismayed about NHTSA deliberately concealing deadly facts on early SUV's. For a safety agency to put politics over safety like that is the worst kind of hypocrisy, that which causes harm. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
| (Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children
|
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
(Illinois) Car-seat law aims to protect children | Thumbunny | General | 6 | July 14th 03 08:08 AM |
(Illinois) Kids Count study finds high infant mortality rates in Coles, Edgar counties | [email protected] | General | 1 | June 28th 03 11:49 AM |