Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"

The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
betters ways to discipline.

"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
inquiries about what's happening."

This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.

Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children are
not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of how
they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is that
what we want our children to learn?

LaVonne

billy f wrote:

The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
betters ways to discipline.

"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
inquiries about what's happening."

Once again your forming a generalization that all children raised with tough
discipline "already have problems". I really don't think you know how the
human mind works. If a child is raised with this kind of discipline from day
one he will except it as the norm and will not question it. Most children
never have a problem with the way their parents raise them until outside
forces feed their minds with crap like "your parents did that to you, that's
child abuse" Its only then that they start resenting their parents for
raising them the way they have. Children raised with military type
discipline that is not to harsh or demeaning are usually from my experience
very strong, competitive, athletic masculine individuals. They are usually
leaders more than followers and they don't go around whining about
everything like children raised in more permissive households do. Of course
if the parents are mean and sadistic like the military can sometimes be the
child could grow up with emotional problems.

The last part of your statement is a very politically correct one. Children
sometimes are humiliated by teachers because the student is humiliating
others including the teacher. Sometimes letting someone see how it feels is
the best solution to a problem. People like you think that your doing right
by sheltering children from reality. The truth is in the real world you
disrespect someone they are going to do the same to you.

"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message
...
This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is
raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.

Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children
are
not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of
how
they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is
that
what we want our children to learn?