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  #21  
Old December 2nd 03, 09:23 PM
CME
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Default Dr. Phil


"HanK" wrote in message
...

"CME"

Its funny I was thinking of you lot last Saturday night when some bint was
trying to remove my tonsels whilst telling me how much she loved her

husband
and kids. women are like female spiders. Still another enemy diffused

HanK


And you let her? I think that says more about you than her, proving our
point all along.

Christine


  #22  
Old December 2nd 03, 09:41 PM
Paul Fritz
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Default Dr. Phil


"CME" wrote in message
news:Mw6zb.236029$jy.34561@clgrps13...

"HanK" wrote in message
...

"CME"

Its funny I was thinking of you lot last Saturday night when some bint

was
trying to remove my tonsels whilst telling me how much she loved her

husband
and kids. women are like female spiders. Still another enemy diffused

HanK


And you let her? I think that says more about you than her, proving our
point all along.

Christine



More likely hank was out in the barn piling it high.


  #23  
Old December 2nd 03, 11:07 PM
Joelle
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Default Dr. Phil

I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit for

what
they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't do

it.


So rather than talk about what is going on, they withdraw help to teach
the little woman a lesson?

Well that really puts it back on men to look at it that way. I doubt they are
thinking about "teaching her a lesson" - my guess is, they don't like being
criticized so they don't do it. Kids are like that. People are like that.
Yea, talking about it helps. I'm just offering the counter to the stereotype
that "men never help around the house" with the other side that when they do,
it's often not good enough.

I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge" of
the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared
responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle
  #24  
Old December 3rd 03, 12:37 AM
Tiffany
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Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


'Kate wrote in message ...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany"

Joelle wrote in message
...
There are, of course, exceptional men and women who shared duties

from
the start or have adopted non-traditional roles by choice.

'Kate

Yeah and where can I meet them??? lol

My husband did more housecleaning than me.

He was older - 35 and had to live on his own and clean his own house.

I
think
that makes a difference.

Being somone that doesn't care if the bathtub gets disinfected every

day
or
even every week, I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have

higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit

for
what
they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't

do
it.

Joelle



That is very true. So many of my friends complain about how the husband
can't clean right or do laundry right. If someone else is cleaning, how

can
it be wrong? lol


When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do
something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn
well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the
white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked
to do laundry in the house.

'Kate


Maybe you should spank them like kids then. lol

T


  #25  
Old December 3rd 03, 12:40 AM
Tiffany
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Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


'Kate wrote in message ...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany"

Joelle wrote in message
...
There are, of course, exceptional men and women who shared duties

from
the start or have adopted non-traditional roles by choice.

'Kate

Yeah and where can I meet them??? lol

My husband did more housecleaning than me.

He was older - 35 and had to live on his own and clean his own house.

I
think
that makes a difference.

Being somone that doesn't care if the bathtub gets disinfected every

day
or
even every week, I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have

higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit

for
what
they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't

do
it.

Joelle



That is very true. So many of my friends complain about how the husband
can't clean right or do laundry right. If someone else is cleaning, how

can
it be wrong? lol


When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do
something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn
well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the
white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked
to do laundry in the house.

'Kate


What does surprise me is that women blame it on the man for his behavior
when chances are it is learnt behavior. If the man is someone who would
purposely ruin clothes to get out of helping around the house, then in my
opinion, he wouldn't be around the house. T


  #26  
Old December 3rd 03, 01:17 AM
Andrew
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Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


"Joelle" wrote in message
...
I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in charge"

of
the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a shared
responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well.

Joelle


Yeah, interesting that you should say so. When I was living with my wife and
I was working full time she had a part time job two evenings a week, I
suggested getting someone to help with managing the housework as it was a
big load and my sister knew someone who did that for a living. My wife 'did
not want someone else in her house' but admitted it was hard to manage. I
thought I helped as much as possible when I was home (now I am alone I know
the difference between the 'showy' help and the real help but thats a topic
for another day!). I guess it gets very territorial. Sometimes my attempts
to help out with something would be met with a 'you don't know how to do
that properly'. That's not to say that I am denying the 'men are inherently
lazy argument' as I think many humans (can we count ourselves here?) will
avoid tedious work if they think they can and men in a 'normal' (note the
quotes) marriage have every opportunity to do this. Douglas Adams SEP field
applies (Someone Else's Problem). Hate to get contentious but some people
can also project a real 'o woe is me, I work so hard, I am such a troubled
person, life is just so tough, o woe' and don't seem to want to get out of
it or be relieved of it. (Not my wife by the way who did lots, was great and
I just wish it had worked out). Also standards alone and standards with a
kid in the house, the stuff they do and the time you have to spend on them
rather than cleaning have got to be different in the real world.

Like someone recently posted there is a problem with 'traditional' roles and
current real life. Anyone who is a fan of science fiction should have a read
of the books of Sherri Tepper, feminist writer with some very interesting
ideas about the way we ought to structure society with the genders behaviour
as it is. If any of you do read her books I would be interested in your
views on the differing social structures she posits as better or at least
alternatives.

Andrew

PS Joelle, don't say things like 'he was older, 35'. It hurts. 35 is not
older, it is prime rib from there till at least 45. (Dennis, help me out
here?? 35-55, your sexiest years???) :-)

PPS As an aside there are some things I am obsessive about in the standards
front, such as how clean cutlery and crockery should be. Although once
having a kid some things do change, five years ago I would never have
imagined being in a position of sticking my poor, naked hand into a toilet
bowls water for any reason whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All we need now is me
in the kitchen with pots and pans, Kat dealing with the floors and a
volunteer for the laundry and bedmaking and we're set as a pretty groovy
commune. I also peel potatoes like a demon, its a primary skill of mine.


  #27  
Old December 3rd 03, 01:31 AM
Andrew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


'Kate wrote in message ...
On 02 Dec 2003 22:07:02 GMT, oaway (Joelle)
I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit

for
what
they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't

do
it.


So rather than talk about what is going on, they withdraw help to teach
the little woman a lesson?

Well that really puts it back on men to look at it that way. I doubt

they are
thinking about "teaching her a lesson" - my guess is, they don't like

being
criticized so they don't do it. Kids are like that. People are like

that.
Yea, talking about it helps. I'm just offering the counter to the

stereotype
that "men never help around the house" with the other side that when they

do,
it's often not good enough.

I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in

charge" of
the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a

shared
responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well.


I agree. Women do need to give up control to share control of the
housework, children, etc....

In the same way that men are needed to assume a more equitable level of
work in the home, women need to adjust the way that we think about that
work and learn to share responsibility. Sharing responsibility does
mean that women will have to stop taking total responsibility, give up
control, and learn to effectively communicate needs - to ask and to be
heard. It's not easy to change tradition. Mothers/women gain a measure
of self-esteem from their ability to parent well, to keep a clean home,
to cook and perform other domestic chores well. Some men aren't
thrilled with the idea of having more responsibility in the home. It
isn't what they've learned "fatherhood" is. A request by the wife could
easily be addressed as "she's nagging." Our roles as parents in a
two-earner family has changed so fast and we don't have the tools
(communication skills, models of functional families, learned roles and
scripts) to keep up with that change. It is no wonder the divorce rate
has increased. We know the "ideal" but it's awfully hard to find it for
ourselves because we're building a brand new framework for the idea of
"family." Adjustments like that require constant tweaking and both
people in the marriage need to be willing to change how they think of
their roles.

'Kate


Very good point, it is considered a mark of a 'good woman' to maintain a
clean home. Tradition has defined roles. Question. Do you think that both
genders should have the same roles? There are some physical differences such
as the male inability to breast feed. Should this mean that we take on
different roles and if so what should they be, should it affect housework,
income generation roles or only child rearing roles. Should mothers be
closer to children and fathers more or less superfluous? Not so long ago a
dad would have very little to do with child rearing, would they have been
missed by the child? Should they be missed? What would you personally
consider makes a 'good man' all political considerations aside? Is that what
you would have bred with at breeding time or would traditional values have
ruled your choice? (not to put too fne a point on it)

Andrew

(once you have dealt with the above lets move on to the questions of the
economy and global warming)


  #28  
Old December 3rd 03, 04:08 AM
Joelle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil

es. Should mothers be
closer to children and fathers more or less superfluous?


Obviously fathers are not superfluous but I will say and this is only one
experience, my husband stayed home and took care of the kids, but there were
days when my son was a baby where he would cry all day long and would not be
comforted until I came home. He would cry as soon as I picked up the keys to
leave (this is at 3 months old!) and he would stop crying when I came in the
house. It was really horrible...my husband felt terrible and I don't think he
was incompetent or mean to the kid, I think the baby just wanted his mama. I
think young babies need mama's in a way that men can't fulfill. It was bad
enough to convince me to rearrange things so that when I had my daughter I was
home more.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle
  #29  
Old December 3rd 03, 04:24 AM
CME
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


"Andrew" wrote in message
...

"Joelle" wrote in message
...
I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in

charge"
of
the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a

shared
responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well.

Joelle


Yeah, interesting that you should say so. When I was living with my wife

and
I was working full time she had a part time job two evenings a week, I
suggested getting someone to help with managing the housework as it was a
big load and my sister knew someone who did that for a living. My wife

'did
not want someone else in her house' but admitted it was hard to manage. I
thought I helped as much as possible when I was home (now I am alone I

know
the difference between the 'showy' help and the real help but thats a

topic
for another day!). I guess it gets very territorial. Sometimes my attempts
to help out with something would be met with a 'you don't know how to do
that properly'. That's not to say that I am denying the 'men are

inherently
lazy argument' as I think many humans (can we count ourselves here?) will
avoid tedious work if they think they can and men in a 'normal' (note the
quotes) marriage have every opportunity to do this. Douglas Adams SEP

field
applies (Someone Else's Problem). Hate to get contentious but some people
can also project a real 'o woe is me, I work so hard, I am such a troubled
person, life is just so tough, o woe' and don't seem to want to get out of
it or be relieved of it. (Not my wife by the way who did lots, was great

and
I just wish it had worked out). Also standards alone and standards with a
kid in the house, the stuff they do and the time you have to spend on them
rather than cleaning have got to be different in the real world.

Like someone recently posted there is a problem with 'traditional' roles

and
current real life. Anyone who is a fan of science fiction should have a

read
of the books of Sherri Tepper, feminist writer with some very interesting
ideas about the way we ought to structure society with the genders

behaviour
as it is. If any of you do read her books I would be interested in your
views on the differing social structures she posits as better or at least
alternatives.

Andrew

PS Joelle, don't say things like 'he was older, 35'. It hurts. 35 is not
older, it is prime rib from there till at least 45. (Dennis, help me out
here?? 35-55, your sexiest years???) :-)

PPS As an aside there are some things I am obsessive about in the

standards
front, such as how clean cutlery and crockery should be. Although once
having a kid some things do change, five years ago I would never have
imagined being in a position of sticking my poor, naked hand into a toilet
bowls water for any reason whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All we need now is

me
in the kitchen with pots and pans, Kat dealing with the floors and a
volunteer for the laundry and bedmaking and we're set as a pretty groovy
commune. I also peel potatoes like a demon, its a primary skill of mine.


LOL can I buy you a plane ticket to Canada? Kat and I are almost neighbours
and I make a mean dinner as well as do laundry.

Christine


  #30  
Old December 3rd 03, 04:26 AM
CME
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dr. Phil


'Kate wrote in message ...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:37:28 -0500, "Tiffany"

'Kate wrote in message

...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:50:50 -0500, "Tiffany"


When they should be grateful that he ever lifted a finger to do
something to contribute? This may surprise you but some men know darn
well that if they shrink a few sweaters or put something dark in the
white wash a few times, that will be the last time they are ever asked
to do laundry in the house.

'Kate


Maybe you should spank them like kids then. lol

T


I've never had to spank a child. I have, on the other hand, been asked
to spank.... ah, that's another story altogether.

'Kate


That we all need to hear... lol

Christine


 




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