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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills



 
 
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  #12  
Old September 9th 06, 04:26 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
toto
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Posts: 784
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:45:47 GMT, "Donna Metler"
wrote:

I strongly suspect that an oral exam/discussion given 1-1 would have much
the same benefit a music audition/interview does, if schools decided to do
it that way.


That would eliminate students with speech problems who might to very
well on written exams, but not be able to hold their own in such
interviews. Having an autistic grandson and in talking with autistic
adults online, I know that they might fail face to face oral exams and
yet be perfectly capable of the understanding needed to be accepted on
the basis of their written knowledge.

My ds had problems with interviews when he was job hunting and yet he
is one of the most capable chemical engineers at his company.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #13  
Old September 9th 06, 04:31 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
toto
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Posts: 784
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:41:41 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:

My straight-A kids have rich souls. The D students do, too, for that matter.
So, what are these important things that failing students are so much better
at? I'd love to know.


While I think that straight A students *can* be wonderful people, I
think what Herman means is students who are focused on the grades
alone and there are plenty of those around.

Haven't you had lots of kids who ask *is that going to be on the
test?* as opposed to *is that important enough to learn?*

And, I know kids who are D and F students who are quite simply not
willing to put in the time to *please* the teacher or the system.
They can be quite intelligent and they can be quite focused on
learning when the subject is not required of them by the adults in
their lives.

These are individual things though and not something I would
generalize to *all* or even *most* straight A or D and F students.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #14  
Old September 9th 06, 04:42 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
Mommy of 2
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Posts: 14
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

This topic started, I think, (as I skimmed, not read) as pushing for
Meds, to ADHD, to grades.

Medicating ADD/ADHD children (in MY opinion) is absurd. My 5 year old
was "diagnosed" as ADHD, but I refused any form of meds for her. 6
months after her "diagnosis" it turned out she has sleep apnea, and
holds her pee until she's about to have an accident. These two
combined, caused her to be cranky, hyper, out of control, and annoying.
She couldn't sit still because she had to pee really, really bad. Only
slept 5-6 hours per night, and couldn't fall asleep because by bedtime
she was beyond over tired. One day she went out with my father for
about 7.5 hours, and when they got home he was in such a bad mood. My
daughter wouldn't listen, she wouldn't sit still, she was really "bad."
All she needed was to use the bathroom, but doesn't go because she
doesn't want to miss something.

ASKING for meds for your child is even more absurd.

Grades. I didn't read the whole topic well, but I will say that at 23
years old my High School grades embarass me. I'm taking developmental
math now in college, and I had to get extra help on division because in
Middle, and High Shool, I never showed up to class, and if I did, I
went to sleep. Grades are so important, and the kids with low (who
don't care) grades are probably embarassed to admit they need help,
have parents who aren't involved, are stressed out, depressed . . . my
OPINION list goes on and on.

  #15  
Old September 9th 06, 04:59 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
toto
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Posts: 784
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:42:19 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:

toto wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

Parents want their kids to excel in school, and they've heard about
the illegal use of stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall for
"academic doping." Hoping to obtain the drugs legally, they pressure
pediatricians for them. Some even request the drugs after openly
admitting they don't believe their child has ADHD.

I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory
purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a
high grade and learning the important material may well
be at odds with each other.

This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who
focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the
teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants.


Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard? I am a
teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they
love learning. How many times have you heard a kid say, "I failed that
class because it was boring?" What about "I passed that class because it was
fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do well in class. Pretty simple.


I am a teacher and ime, what you say is not true. I've taught both HS
math and preschool. The preschool kids who are *not* graded are
much more interested in learning everything. I grew up in the 60s
when the ungraded systems were going strong though my own school did
not implement them. All the teachers I talked to loved them, but the
administrations did not and the colleges were not very accepting of
them, so they eventually failed except in a few private schools where
they are in place today. My dgd is 4. She is in love with life and
learning and fortunately, she is in a school that she really loves
right now. I am hopeful that she will not have that love of learning
driven out by the school system. Too many kids start off loving to
learn and are turned off by the methods used in traditional schools.

Also, I was one of those kids who did well without much effort all
through K-12. I can't tell you how bored I was with my honors
classes. I often brought a book and read through them (keeping it
well hidden). I finished my work early quite frequently and finished
my homework in school. I worked 4 to midnight as a waitress in my
junior and senior years and still made As for the most part though I
did have a few Bs when I was just too bored to bother doing the
work to my capacity.

It is interesting to me that the younger kids are often much more
eager to learn than the older ones. And, that the kids who want the
grades are *often* focused ONLY on that and not at all on learning the
material for its own sake.

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a
course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I
see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's;
the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in
the important things.


Again we agree, but the problem is that colleges do NOT want students
who have poor grades.


There's a good reason for that. Kids get low grades because they don't show
up and don't do the work. Why would a college want someone like that?

My dd had a class she earned a C in that she
says was the best class she ever took in her major. She struggled
with it, but learned more than she did in many classes that were
*easy* As for her.


You know, I LOVE learning -- English and history, that is. I love it so
much I couldn't stop and so I became a teacher. There is nothing like
talking about literature all day long -- FUN! As for math and science --
forget about it. NOT my thing. Anyway, I just ate up everything in all my
literature and history courses, but I would have had a heart attack had I
ever received a C. It's possible to love what you are learning and want to
get a high grade as well.


It's possible, but it's not common these days. The competition for
grades to get into college drives the kids much more than any love of
learning.

Note that you probably wanted the grade in math and science, but it
didn't motivate you to actually love the subjects, did it?

I got good grades in all my subjects. I loved math because of the
logic and that is why I majored in math in college and only went into
teaching it later on after I had my own kids and wanted to do
something with children that would also use my math background.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #16  
Old September 9th 06, 05:06 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
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Posts: 84
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills


karlisa wrote:
snipped
Even the homeschooled
kids have grades recorded on their transcripts. Of course, they're all
A's. ;-)



Interesting. I know a lot of homeschooled kids, including mine, who
*don't* have all A's. :-)

AAMOF, my two youngest both got B's and C's in their biology and
chemistry courses, because they didn't study enough. YD go a B in
biology and a C in chemistry; and YS got a B in chemistry and a C in
biology. Neither of them is earning an A in their required budgeting
and finances course, either.

Kitten

  #17  
Old September 9th 06, 05:18 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
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Posts: 84
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills


nimue wrote:
toto wrote:

snipped
This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who
focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the
teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants.


Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard? I am a
teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they
love learning. How many times have you heard a kid say, "I failed that
class because it was boring?" What about "I passed that class because it was
fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do well in class. Pretty simple.



Hmmm... sometimes. I slept through my high school classes and earned
A's and B's. My younger sister worked her tail off for B's and C's.

I was able to sleep through my classes and earn good grades because I
loved learning enough that I was learning *outside* of class. I keep
telling my grandmother that she homeschooled me and didn't even know
it. I didn't need to focus in most of my classes because I'd already
learned so much of the material at home.

(FWIW, I too am a teacher. I've taught in public and private schools.
I now home educate my children, the youngest of whom will be graduating
in 2 years.)

Kitten

  #18  
Old September 9th 06, 05:29 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
nimue
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Posts: 645
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

toto wrote:
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:42:19 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:

toto wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

Parents want their kids to excel in school, and they've heard
about the illegal use of stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall
for "academic doping." Hoping to obtain the drugs legally, they
pressure pediatricians for them. Some even request the drugs
after openly admitting they don't believe their child has ADHD.

I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory
purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a
high grade and learning the important material may well
be at odds with each other.

This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who
focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the
teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants.


Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard?
I am a teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so
because they love learning. How many times have you heard a kid
say, "I failed that class because it was boring?" What about "I
passed that class because it was fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do
well in class. Pretty simple.


I am a teacher and ime, what you say is not true. I've taught both HS
math and preschool.


I teach high school English. I always failed math. I hate math.

The preschool kids who are *not* graded are
much more interested in learning everything.


Who grades preschool kids? What a ridiculous idea. I have "taught"
preschool, too, and we never graded any kids.

I grew up in the 60s
when the ungraded systems were going strong though my own school did
not implement them. All the teachers I talked to loved them, but the
administrations did not and the colleges were not very accepting of
them, so they eventually failed except in a few private schools where
they are in place today. My dgd is 4. She is in love with life and
learning and fortunately, she is in a school that she really loves
right now. I am hopeful that she will not have that love of learning
driven out by the school system. Too many kids start off loving to
learn and are turned off by the methods used in traditional schools.


That can be true.

Also, I was one of those kids who did well without much effort all
through K-12. I can't tell you how bored I was with my honors
classes. I often brought a book and read through them (keeping it
well hidden). I finished my work early quite frequently and finished
my homework in school. I worked 4 to midnight as a waitress in my
junior and senior years and still made As for the most part though I
did have a few Bs when I was just too bored to bother doing the
work to my capacity.


I went to a highly -- I cannot stress how highly -- competitive private
school at which I got As in English and social studies and Ds and Fs in
science and math. I don't know why they kept me, but I am thankful they
did. Anyway, I was never bored in English or social studies, ever. Then
again, I had great teachers and was constantly given enriching, challenging
material and lots of positive feedback. Math and science bored me, though.

It is interesting to me that the younger kids are often much more
eager to learn than the older ones. And, that the kids who want the
grades are *often* focused ONLY on that and not at all on learning the
material for its own sake.

Man, I wanted my grades. I wanted them more and more the older I got. When
I was in college and could finally focus on the classes I wanted to take (I
got the math and science requirement out of the way) I wanted those As (and
I got them, too) but god did I just LOVE the classes I was taking. There
was nary a math or science class among them.

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a
course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I
see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's;
the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in
the important things.

Again we agree, but the problem is that colleges do NOT want
students who have poor grades.


There's a good reason for that. Kids get low grades because they
don't show up and don't do the work. Why would a college want
someone like that?

My dd had a class she earned a C in that she
says was the best class she ever took in her major. She struggled
with it, but learned more than she did in many classes that were
*easy* As for her.


You know, I LOVE learning -- English and history, that is. I love
it so much I couldn't stop and so I became a teacher. There is
nothing like talking about literature all day long -- FUN! As for
math and science -- forget about it. NOT my thing. Anyway, I just
ate up everything in all my literature and history courses, but I
would have had a heart attack had I ever received a C. It's
possible to love what you are learning and want to get a high grade
as well.


It's possible, but it's not common these days. The competition for
grades to get into college drives the kids much more than any love of
learning.


I work in an inner city high school and that has not been my experience.
Most kids are happy to get a 65. Many don't care about the subject. They
just want to pass. The few who want high grades, in my experience, really
do care about the subject and work hard.


Note that you probably wanted the grade in math and science, but it
didn't motivate you to actually love the subjects, did it?


Oh, god no. I didn't give a rat's behind about my grades in science and
math. I didn't care about them. I thought they were pointless and I didn't
care what grades I got in either of those two subjects. I had such contempt
for those subjects. They didn't open up my heart or fascinate me or seem to
serve any purpose in my life. I felt they should be left to those who could
use them for good -- they can be used for good, but I am not the one who can
do that.

I got good grades in all my subjects. I loved math because of the
logic and that is why I majored in math in college and only went into
teaching it later on after I had my own kids and wanted to do
something with children that would also use my math background.


This past summer I took a practice GRE just for the fun of it. It was free,
after all. I scored in the 99th percentile for English. Math? I scored in
the 5th percentile. No one who knew me was surprised.

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah


  #19  
Old September 9th 06, 06:05 AM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
[email protected]
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Posts: 153
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills


toto wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:


I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory
purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a
high grade and learning the important material may well
be at odds with each other.

This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who
focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the
teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants.


I went to UC Santa Cruz for grad school, and in the middle of my (very
many) years there, they got rid of the no-grades system. Originally,
UCSC didn't give out any grades at all -- all classes were taken
pass-fail, and instead of a grade, students got a narrative evaluation.
By the time I got there, students had the option of taking classes for
grades, and by the time I finished, all classes were graded although
you had the option of taking a few pass-no pass. Students still get
the narrative evaluations, which I like in theory (they're much more
informative than a simple grade, and you can really talk about the
students' strengths and weaknesses), although in practice, they're very
unwieldy if you're teaching a large class.

But my main point is that I saw over the course of my time there, a
steady decline in the quality of students, a steady decline in
creativity and risk-taking, and a steady increase in grade-mongering.
(I was in history, and I TA'd and taught dozens of classes and had
hundreds of students.) I don't know if this trajectory is totally or
even partially due to the change in grade policy, but it was very
noticeable.

And just to add -- I still have plenty of bright, motivated, engaged
students who are clearly taking the class for more than a grade. I
also have plenty of engaged, bright students who love talking about the
material and have interesting and insightful things to say, but who
don't do the work and are not getting As. I haven't found that what
grade a student receives *consistently* corresponds to their
intellectual curiosity.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

  #20  
Old September 9th 06, 01:39 PM posted to misc.kids,misc.education,alt.parenting.solutions,misc.kids.health,alt.support.attn-deficit
Raving Beauty
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Posts: 20
Default Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills


nimue wrote:
toto wrote:
I am a
teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they
love learning.


Bull****.

Getting straight A's necessitates one PLAY THE GAME

A) Feed teachers demand for narcissistic supply

B) Appease teachers demand for form over substance

C) Always subordinate the truth to being an A student

etc.

 




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