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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
Kane wrote:
On 16 Feb 2004 15:14:56 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote: ...and I ask: any particular reason you are hiding this over in misc.kids rather than posting to alt.support.child-protective-services? Or is it just an "ethical nuance" I "fail to grasp"? Or probably just an oversight. I'll help and post it back to apcsp Subject: Many families *at risk* by CPS assessment questions From: (Fern5827) Date: 2/15/2004 3:51 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: Here's a link to a risk assessment used in Michigan: http://www.mfia.state.mi.us/olmweb/ex/cfp/713-11.pdf Own or rent home? Special needs child? Single Mom? Watch out--you're a candidate for your local CPS, child protective services *help.* Single Dad--filling in when Mom bails? Well besides the fact you fail to note what that risk is, risk of investigation, and ignore the fact such lists are assessment tools, not TPR tools, and you can't figure out how to get rid of child abuse, neglect, and infanticide other than by apology so it won't be stopped any more, you are a liar. AND these questions are drawn from abuse and neglect data results as to perps and situations. These are the circumstances found where children are injured, and killed by their bio production units more often. I wonder if you'd like a pilot to do herpreflight on a plane you are taking by walking around doing her makeup rather than the checklist for aircraft safe operation? Or would you claim a doctor is incompetent because he actually takes your vitals and checks his PDR and specific referrance books before making a diagnosis on YOU? Or your kin? Would you prefer he just make an expert guess from the next room while you tell him your symptoms? Tell CPS what you would rather they do to find and stop abuse and neglect. The assessment list can be as powerful a tool in defense of a family as you seem to think it is against a family. Kane Newsgroup alt support child protective services. descriptors; DSS, DHS, DFS, ACS, FIA, TDPRS, DYFS, DFYS,CYFD, CPA, DFACS, DFCS, ILDCFS, DCF,DHR,DCS,DCYF,DSHS,ACF, SRS Yes, but Kane, indicators are one thing, but to paint a family with a dirty brush because previous experience tells us that there might be a problem is just plain wrong. Not all families fall into the same patterns and there does not seem to be any room for subjective thinking that perhaps there can be exceptions to the rule.... |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:06:03 GMT, Sheila J wrote:
Kane wrote: Sheila J wrote in message news:%K7Yb.532826$ts4.251089@pd7tw3no... Greg Hanson wrote: Thanks Linda! http://www.mfia.state.mi.us/olmweb/ex/cfp/713-11.pdf Keep in mind that this list was probably sanitized before it was made public. I have seen lists of "indicators" that caseworkers use that were at least 4 times as long as this one. Exhibit 1 risk of NEGLECT N1 Current complaint is for neglect 1 point N2 # of prior assigned complaints 0=0 1=1 2+=2 points N3 # of kids 3+ = 1 point N4 # adults 2+ =0 one/none = 1 point N5 Age of primary caregiver 29 or less? 1 point N6 Characteristics of primary caregiver not applicable 0 lacks parenting skills 1 point lacks self esteem 1 point apathetic or hopeless 1 point N7 Primary caretaker involved in harmful relationships No 0 Yes but no DV 1 Yes including DV 2 N8 Substance abuse Alcohol 1 Drugs 3 N9 Household experiencing severe financial difficulty Yes 1 point N10 Primary caretaker motivation to improve parenting skills Motivated and realistic 0 Unmotivated 1 Motivated but unrealistic 2 N11 Response to investigation Viewed situation as seriously as investigator and cooperated 0 Less seriously than investigator 1 Failed to cooperate 2 Both 3 Additionally, Exhibit 2 (ongoing or case closed) included many of the same but: R8 excessive or inappropriate discipline R9 Primary caregiver cooperation with treatment R10 Secondary caregiver cooperation with treatment Kane: Please note we're not just talking about underage parents for the age bias. Which of these risk assesment "indicators" do you find objectionable, Kane? Dan? I challenge you to come up with such an official list for your state. These are tabulated IN SECRET on most families, completely guarded from review or correction. In other words, caseworkers can LIE their behinds off and generally get away with abusive false reporting. Both in assessment and on an ongoing basis. In Canada you can request your file under Access to Information. I would strongly advise that anyone who is involved with CPS do this IMMEDIATELY ! We failed their risk assessment. Why were they there? Because the live-in nanny that I fired after 4 days reported us. Why did we fail? 4 children. I under 2. I has Aspergers. Husband was in Afghanistan. I had been subject to abuse as a child. My kidney had just been removed. That's it. That was why we were investigated. My husband and I both have Ph.Ds. Our annual family income is 150,000 plus. We have had professionally trained live-in nannies for our entire parenting life. It took me 16 miscarriages and 10s of thousands of dollars to have those 4 children - They enjoy riding lessons, scouts, guides, beavers, skating/dancing/swimming lessons, soccer, baseball and fencing clubs. We take them to Europe once or twice a year. They wear nothing but Tommy Hilfiger, Gap, Lands End, LL Bean and Ralph Lauren. We have a cleaning lady 3 times a week. They attend church every Sunday. They couldn't even tell you what Hamburger Helper is and they love sushi, dim sum, rare beef, brie and tiger shrimp...We attend every function they have, however small, have large parties for their entire class at their birthdays, Halloween and Christmas, bake hundreds of cookies and cakes for each and every school function and not a decision gets made in our house that doesn't revolve around the welfare of our children. And we were assessed as being potential abusers. And you might wonder why I'm bitter? But we fought back. And we won. The terrifying thing, however, is that we COULD fight back and most people can't. We had both the financial resources and the ability to articulate ourselves in court. We had family support, church support and the support of our military community (It was a civilian agency who did the investigating) And it almost killed me. I don't know how families that do NOT have the above strengths survive this. I went to bed every night for 4 months thinking I would die of sorrow and not believing I would ever function again. It could have easily have destroyed our family but we refused to let it. If you had asked me two years ago what I thought of CPS I would have said they were noble individuals who were doing God's work. Now I say that they are incompetent individuals who greatly abuse the trust they are given. And I offer my help and assistance to anyone who requires it. Enough is enough. And when you have supported a family against CPS and they turn out to having been molesting their own children you'll do what, swing the other way as thoughtlessly and start gunning for parents? You have been hurt and you are in reaction and you are blowing hard. None of the dread outcomes happened did they? You had your day in court and won, didn't you? What plans have you for the nanny? Or do you wish to just join the ranks of folks that have to claim they were mugged when in fact they were investigated? Why have you jumped so easily to taking up the cause of losers when you are a winner? How many cases of others do you know beyond what they or the media tell you? Kane The response I would expect Kane. Gosh are we long time friends then ol' sock? I don't recall meeting you before, as Sheila You've posted 18 times to ascps and only as far back as January 28 this year. My you are "fast" and only on our second or third date. But what I have found is that when one becomes involved in this type of situation, one then finds out about the dozens of other families that have had similiar experiences. Sure one does. And one believes anything one is told by one to another doesn't one, if it fits in ones current bitch and ax to grind and ox goring. People you would have never thought. I believe (strongly) that most people do not mean to harm their children - the cases of true neglect and abuse are few and far between. People you would have thought, etc. have turned out to be secret substance abusers, incestuous child molesters, and in a few cases child killers. Do you think they all were ID tags as molesters and have snaggle teeth and never shave or bathe? How many child abusers do you think are going to spill their guts to you or anyone honestly? The ALL ARE INNOCENT EVEN WHEN THE MARKS ON THEIR CHILD AND THERE WAS AN EYE WITNESS AND THE CHILD SAYS THEY DID IT. They wake up and try to get honest usually too late, at a show cause for TPR. Kinda doesn't work after months of denial and tons of refusal to do anything to get their children back. Most take the advice of the sickos here that try to engage them in frontal combat (sacrificing them as pawns of course, and their spattered little bootied dance dance dance, onto the next unsuspecting parent that shows up here asking for help.) You might be even better, you sould so plausible. Got a good coach? I think most people that find themselves dealing with CPS are in need of assistance, not accusations, threats etc. And you went to the state capitol and lobbied for funding for these programs, right? And the folks needing help are lined up outside the CPS offices all over the land just asking for some help with ending their drugs, drink, and child burning, beating, and trading for drugs...yup...you got the answer allrighty. I'm not saying there is not a need for these social workers in our society - I am saying that there is a need for controls. Name them. Then finance them. Our case was the perfect example of what can go wrong. What went wrong? You had someone make an accusation. Was CPS to forget it because you are nice? That has been put forth as a claim in these ngs...."the wealthy people with clout are NOT investigated and that's why children are abused and neglected by such folks and get away with it." Baaaad CPS. Dreaded outcomes? Our family was almost destroyed over this. I don't doubt it. You seem near hysteria. As wealthy as you are you couldn't afford a hotshot attorney? I wonder what kinds of fool things your attorny did do? It's possible to get children back home in as little as four months WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY AS SIN FOR USING METH WHILE PREGNANT and similar problems. It's been done by someone in this ng, and he's done a good deal more. 2 years later and we are still recovering. An investigation that failed to convict and you are still recovering? A case you won and you are still recovering? Winning a settlement did nothing but vindicate our reputation. Ah, that IS the purpose of the legal system,...and YOU won a settlement, recovered your reputation and you are still recovering? The settlement is supposed to be to recover your pain and suffering, not to stop it. It's been paid for by the settlement because pain and suffering is real in cases where people are accused and investigated and turn out to be innocent...but that does NOT equate with CPS not doing its job correctly. Exactly what statutes and policies did the investigation break? It did nothing to help put our family back together. And that is precisely WHY settlements are won .... to compensate you for your work having to put your family back together. That was done with love and constant, extreme effort. Like I said. My fears are for those people that do not have that type of strength. I'll try to say this as kindly as possible. I don't believe you. Could you point us to some public sources that tell YOUR story. I'll be happy to apoligize if you are real. At this point I'm beginning to doubt the oh-so-conveniently-fitting-the-nonsense-claims-of-the-fools-in-this-ng story. I don't 'blow hard' before I act. Do I hear the tinkle of a cash register and the ambitious grunts of yet another KILLCPS candidate for president and chair of a group collecting membership fees and contributions? You have a lot of competition. It's a popular gig these days. I have seen too much in this life to ever act before I think. Were you thinking when you hired that nanny? No, of course not. You were doing your job as parent, but you made a mistake. This applies to CPS investigations as well. They do their job, they make mistakes. And for those there needs to be restitution and reform of the system. Unfortunately and the thousands of instances where they do their job and are completly justified and correct in many and outcome, those guilty folks are also free to deny and to come trippin' in here to whine and look for loser company who will back their claims of being "done wrong." But there has to be a stop to all these mistakes. The damage is too great. How would YOU stop it? You have a cure? Does it include destroying CPS and building a new system with the same budget? Wanna guess who would be hired? Where would the trained people come from...why from the ranks of the people fired upon destruction of CPS. Unless you think you have a better sources better trained and more dedicated that will work in the sewers of dysfunctional family life, with the dangerous criminal drug folks, and put up with interfamily soap opera and carry a caseload of 40 to 50 rountinly. Tell us what you will do to "reform" CPS. I love it when people say they need dedicated workers who won't care about income so much as families and children, so over course THEIR children get to go barefoot proving how much they care for families. MmmmmmmHHHmmmmmmmmm.. Sure. I think lawyers should work for half pay, doctors at a third, and those lazy postal people should just volunteer for the healty outdoor life when they are not at a bench all day laughing it up with their cronies and doing those fun skate mailcarting 5 or 6 hundred pounds around the cold or too hot warehouses. I could use some employees that would work for me out of dedication to my business. Got any? In your own case, vis a vis, reform: What was CPS supposed to do, take your word for your innocence? Ignore an allegation of abuse by a trained child care person...that ARE under mandate to report in most states, and obviously she ID'd herself. That's hot stuff and very hard to schelp on by without notice. That cannot be ignored, unless you wish CPS to ignore all allegations unless they are already proven...to NEVER investigate. And if they do, to simply believe the nice people that say they are inncent. So run your story out for us. It's sure to be interesting. And please, something other than your word for supporting evidence of the truth of the story. We've had a rash of socks here lately trying to con the group. The "woe is me" was so thick I considered composting it. And suddenly when asked for some details to work with to understand the story, they just kind of wafted away on the scent rising from the pile. Please stay. Please give us something truthful. It is so extremely rare around here we miss it. Only a half dozen posters that tell the truth, on both sides of the issue, and about 15 from the KILLCPS crowd that seems to have captured your heart who do nothing but lie. They can't even key in a subject field that's moderatly accurate. Have at it. Tell CPS how it should be running its business...and drop the platitudes about more kindly and more carefully and with less mistakes. I'm not asking WHAT at this point, I'm asking HOW to do WHAT you claim they don't. Anybody, just join right in. Though I need a half hour to set a new handle to my manure fork. It's been a rough year so far on your friendly ascps newsgroup. Keep in mind that news media usually friendly to the muckrackers is starting to admit, as is the famous Dr. Geller, that FUNDING is and has been horrible. You might also have heard of the problems with substance abuse, that seems to be a part of almost every one that comes here and fesses up honestly. So line those innocent families up that you know, send them around. If they are still in trouble, even if guilty, they could get some much needed help here. I got an idea. Go work for CPS for a few months. I hear they are becoming increasingly short handed and increasing burdened trying to catch up. I knew for years this wave of CPS failures was coming. In 1990 I bearded a state senator in the halls of capitol and asked what she was prepared to do about the 85 caseload average in her state, and the shellshocked workers that were being introduced to the wonderful world of homebrew meth. and that fallout for children. I think she actually did get things going a bit, caseloads dropped to 60 average per worker. Wheee for the workers, I think they celebrated on one break and then had to get back to their desks, their calls to go out and enter pigstys with camera ready, and guessing if someone would stick a knife in them this time. And then my favorite worker that had a call on a lovely family, professionals, a realtor and a registered nurse, and they were so nice, just so nice, and she backed down just a hair when they said two times on different visits their dear daughter was sleeping....could she come back later, and later the baby was found in a dumpster, dead..and the parents were in needle park kind sorta glazed over. You'd be amazed how good people can look when they are in the right phase of their high. Straight as you and I, well I can only speak to how I look. But stone cold killers. It was hard to find an unbroken bone in the three year olds body, below the neckline. The really knew how to discipline. Kane |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
Kane wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:06:03 GMT, Sheila J wrote: Kane wrote: Sheila J wrote in message news:%K7Yb.532826$ts4.251089@pd7tw3no... Greg Hanson wrote: Thanks Linda! http://www.mfia.state.mi.us/olmweb/ex/cfp/713-11.pdf Keep in mind that this list was probably sanitized before it was made public. I have seen lists of "indicators" that caseworkers use that were at least 4 times as long as this one. Exhibit 1 risk of NEGLECT N1 Current complaint is for neglect 1 point N2 # of prior assigned complaints 0=0 1=1 2+=2 points N3 # of kids 3+ = 1 point N4 # adults 2+ =0 one/none = 1 point N5 Age of primary caregiver 29 or less? 1 point N6 Characteristics of primary caregiver not applicable 0 lacks parenting skills 1 point lacks self esteem 1 point apathetic or hopeless 1 point N7 Primary caretaker involved in harmful relationships No 0 Yes but no DV 1 Yes including DV 2 N8 Substance abuse Alcohol 1 Drugs 3 N9 Household experiencing severe financial difficulty Yes 1 point N10 Primary caretaker motivation to improve parenting skills Motivated and realistic 0 Unmotivated 1 Motivated but unrealistic 2 N11 Response to investigation Viewed situation as seriously as investigator and cooperated 0 Less seriously than investigator 1 Failed to cooperate 2 Both 3 Additionally, Exhibit 2 (ongoing or case closed) included many of the same but: R8 excessive or inappropriate discipline R9 Primary caregiver cooperation with treatment R10 Secondary caregiver cooperation with treatment Kane: Please note we're not just talking about underage parents for the age bias. Which of these risk assesment "indicators" do you find objectionable, Kane? Dan? I challenge you to come up with such an official list for your state. These are tabulated IN SECRET on most families, completely guarded from review or correction. In other words, caseworkers can LIE their behinds off and generally get away with abusive false reporting. Both in assessment and on an ongoing basis. In Canada you can request your file under Access to Information. I would strongly advise that anyone who is involved with CPS do this IMMEDIATELY ! We failed their risk assessment. Why were they there? Because the live-in nanny that I fired after 4 days reported us. Why did we fail? 4 children. I under 2. I has Aspergers. Husband was in Afghanistan. I had been subject to abuse as a child. My kidney had just been removed. That's it. That was why we were investigated. My husband and I both have Ph.Ds. Our annual family income is 150,000 plus. We have had professionally trained live-in nannies for our entire parenting life. It took me 16 miscarriages and 10s of thousands of dollars to have those 4 children - They enjoy riding lessons, scouts, guides, beavers, skating/dancing/swimming lessons, soccer, baseball and fencing clubs. We take them to Europe once or twice a year. They wear nothing but Tommy Hilfiger, Gap, Lands End, LL Bean and Ralph Lauren. We have a cleaning lady 3 times a week. They attend church every Sunday. They couldn't even tell you what Hamburger Helper is and they love sushi, dim sum, rare beef, brie and tiger shrimp...We attend every function they have, however small, have large parties for their entire class at their birthdays, Halloween and Christmas, bake hundreds of cookies and cakes for each and every school function and not a decision gets made in our house that doesn't revolve around the welfare of our children. And we were assessed as being potential abusers. And you might wonder why I'm bitter? But we fought back. And we won. The terrifying thing, however, is that we COULD fight back and most people can't. We had both the financial resources and the ability to articulate ourselves in court. We had family support, church support and the support of our military community (It was a civilian agency who did the investigating) And it almost killed me. I don't know how families that do NOT have the above strengths survive this. I went to bed every night for 4 months thinking I would die of sorrow and not believing I would ever function again. It could have easily have destroyed our family but we refused to let it. If you had asked me two years ago what I thought of CPS I would have said they were noble individuals who were doing God's work. Now I say that they are incompetent individuals who greatly abuse the trust they are given. And I offer my help and assistance to anyone who requires it. Enough is enough. And when you have supported a family against CPS and they turn out to having been molesting their own children you'll do what, swing the other way as thoughtlessly and start gunning for parents? You have been hurt and you are in reaction and you are blowing hard. None of the dread outcomes happened did they? You had your day in court and won, didn't you? What plans have you for the nanny? Or do you wish to just join the ranks of folks that have to claim they were mugged when in fact they were investigated? Why have you jumped so easily to taking up the cause of losers when you are a winner? How many cases of others do you know beyond what they or the media tell you? Kane The response I would expect Kane. Gosh are we long time friends then ol' sock? No. I meant that is the response that I would expect from any rationale person and the response I was anticipating. I have no idea who you are, nor do you know who I am. I don't recall meeting you before, as Sheila You've posted 18 times to ascps and only as far back as January 28 this year. My you are "fast" and only on our second or third date. But what I have found is that when one becomes involved in this type of situation, one then finds out about the dozens of other families that have had similiar experiences. Sure one does. And one believes anything one is told by one to another doesn't one, if it fits in ones current bitch and ax to grind and ox goring. Not at all. But these are families I know personally. That I see at church and at my children's events. That I've been to their houses for functions. Great families. To find out they had similiar experiences is ground shaking. I had no idea that these things were as common as they were. People you would have never thought. I believe (strongly) that most people do not mean to harm their children - the cases of true neglect and abuse are few and far between. People you would have thought, etc. have turned out to be secret substance abusers, incestuous child molesters, and in a few cases child killers. Do you think they all were ID tags as molesters and have snaggle teeth and never shave or bathe? No, not at all. Please don't insult my intelligence. My point , or should I say my opinion, is that MOST parents want to be good parents. Some might not have the tools they need and DO NEED assistance. But charging in and making accussations is NOT the way to go about helping families. Subjecting them to incredible amounts of further stress is NOT the way to help. Putting them under financial constraints by forcing them to hire a lawyer is NOT the way to effectively case manage a family in crisis. If more time/energy/pressure/money was put to really find the children that are in serious danger, then social workers would not be so overworked and mistakes would not be made. How many child abusers do you think are going to spill their guts to you or anyone honestly? The ALL ARE INNOCENT EVEN WHEN THE MARKS ON THEIR CHILD AND THERE WAS AN EYE WITNESS AND THE CHILD SAYS THEY DID IT. They wake up and try to get honest usually too late, at a show cause for TPR. Kinda doesn't work after months of denial and tons of refusal to do anything to get their children back. As I said before, I think parents for the most part want to be good parents. If there is physical abuse in the home, then yes, intervention is crucial. I have no tolerance for abuse of any sort. But there must be better ways of assisting a family than tearing it apart. Most take the advice of the sickos here that try to engage them in frontal combat (sacrificing them as pawns of course, and their spattered little bootied dance dance dance, onto the next unsuspecting parent that shows up here asking for help.) You might be even better, you sould so plausible. Got a good coach? Yes, my father. Who is a police chief of a large force and who raised me by himself. I was the product of an incredible amount of abuse as a child. Abuse my father never knew about because I never told him. I'm not just pontificating here. I needed help and received none. But I didn't let it destroy me and it made me a much stronger person. I have seen babies murdered in Rwanda and children killed by landmines in Croatia. I'm an old soul in a young body. It's called perspective. I think most people that find themselves dealing with CPS are in need of assistance, not accusations, threats etc. And you went to the state capitol and lobbied for funding for these programs, right? Not American. But yes to your above. And the folks needing help are lined up outside the CPS offices all over the land just asking for some help with ending their drugs, drink, and child burning, beating, and trading for drugs...yup...you got the answer allrighty. Why the heck would they line up when they know they ARE NOT going to get help - they will get accusations and threats. They might lose their children. Why would they ask for help if that is the risk?? I'm not saying there is not a need for these social workers in our society - I am saying that there is a need for controls. Name them. Then finance them. As half our family income goes in taxes, I would say that I am financing them. Our case was the perfect example of what can go wrong. What went wrong? You had someone make an accusation. Was CPS to forget it because you are nice? That has been put forth as a claim in these ngs...."the wealthy people with clout are NOT investigated and that's why children are abused and neglected by such folks and get away with it." Baaaad CP They put us through 4 months of hell. My husbands career was seriously jeopardized because he needed to be returneed home for 'family problems'. They made our family jump through a dozen hoops and we were submitted to any number of personal indignities. Dreaded outcomes? Our family was almost destroyed over this. I don't doubt it. You seem near hysteria. As wealthy as you are you couldn't afford a hotshot attorney? I wonder what kinds of fool things your attorny did do? Yes, we did have a good attorney. Which is why we won a large settlement. Which is why our children were never taken. . Which is why our ordeal only lasted 4 months and we had the outcome we did. My concern, however, is for those families that DO NOT have those resources. How do they cope? How do they manage? My heart bleeds for them. Near hysteria? You have no idea! It's possible to get children back home in as little as four months WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY AS SIN FOR USING METH WHILE PREGNANT and similar problems. It's been done by someone in this ng, and he's done a good deal more. Well, certainly not in Canada. 2 years later and we are still recovering. An investigation that failed to convict and you are still recovering? A case you won and you are still recovering? Of course. It's the accussation that kills the family. Its the thought that someone COULD possibly think that you would ever do anything to harm your children. That someone out there honestly believed that we would could abuse the children that we adore. Having to turn open our lives to one and all. To have people come into our home three times a week and assess our parenting. It is a violation of one's most basic civil liberties and it's a affront to the most sacred of all things in our society - the family unit. It's the terror on the kids faces when the doorbell rings because they too, still feel the stress of the ordeal. How can you be so flippant and callous to a families feelings? It brought back to the surface every fear and feeling of shame I felt as a child. To be judged the same as my abusers? How does one ever recover from that? Winning a settlement did nothing but vindicate our reputation. Ah, that IS the purpose of the legal system,...and YOU won a settlement, recovered your reputation and you are still recovering? See above. The settlement is supposed to be to recover your pain and suffering, not to stop it. It's been paid for by the settlement because pain and suffering is real in cases where people are accused and investigated and turn out to be innocent...but that does NOT equate with CPS not doing its job correctly. We didn't need the money. We needed closure. But that doesn't make the feelings go away Exactly what statutes and policies did the investigation break? It did nothing to help put our family back together. And that is precisely WHY settlements are won .... to compensate you for your work having to put your family back together. That was done with love and constant, extreme effort. Like I said. My fears are for those people that do not have that type of strength. I'll try to say this as kindly as possible. I don't believe you. You don't know me. Nor do I care about your opinion. Said as kindly as possible. Could you point us to some public sources that tell YOUR story. I'll be happy to apoligize if you are real. At this point I'm beginning to doubt the oh-so-conveniently-fitting-the-nonsense-claims-of-the-fools-in-this-ng story. I'm not THAT public, Kane. NOr do I need your validation. Sorry. I don't 'blow hard' before I act. Do I hear the tinkle of a cash register and the ambitious grunts of yet another KILLCPS candidate for president and chair of a group collecting membership fees and contributions? You have a lot of competition. It's a popular gig these days. That makes no sense to me. But then I'm Canadian. I have seen too much in this life to ever act before I think. Were you thinking when you hired that nanny? No, of course not. You were doing your job as parent, but you made a mistake. I trusted the agency. That is why they were paid 2500 dollars. To NOT make mistakes. This applies to CPS investigations as well. They do their job, they make mistakes. And for those there needs to be restitution and reform of the system. Unfortunately and the thousands of instances where they do their job and are completly justified and correct in many and outcome, those guilty folks are also free to deny and to come trippin' in here to whine and look for loser company who will back their claims of being "done wrong." Is this not a support group for those very people? Should this not be the place for them? I would think alt.support.CPS workers would be the place for you? But there has to be a stop to all these mistakes. The damage is too great. How would YOU stop it? You have a cure? Does it include destroying CPS and building a new system with the same budget? Wanna guess who would be hired? No, it includes being vigalent. And helping other families who require help. Where would the trained people come from...why from the ranks of the people fired upon destruction of CPS. Unless you think you have a better sources better trained and more dedicated that will work in the sewers of dysfunctional family life, with the dangerous criminal drug folks, and put up with interfamily soap opera and carry a caseload of 40 to 50 rountinly. Tell us what you will do to "reform" CPS. I love it when people say they need dedicated workers who won't care about income so much as families and children, so over course THEIR children get to go barefoot proving how much they care for families. MmmmmmmHHHmmmmmmmmm.. Sure. People who have the general interests of family at heart. Not people who get off on the high of having this much power. Not the cynics. Not the paranoid. The compassionate. I think lawyers should work for half pay, doctors at a third, and those lazy postal people should just volunteer for the healty outdoor life when they are not at a bench all day laughing it up with their cronies and doing those fun skate mailcarting 5 or 6 hundred pounds around the cold or too hot warehouses. I could use some employees that would work for me out of dedication to my business. Got any? In your own case, vis a vis, reform: What was CPS supposed to do, take your word for your innocence? Ignore an allegation of abuse by a trained child care person...that ARE under mandate to report in most states, and obviously she ID'd herself. That's hot stuff and very hard to schelp on by without notice. Perhaps put in perspective that she was fired after 4 days. Check into her past. She hadn't lasted more than 3 months at any nanny job she had. The agency neglected to tell us this. They refused to talk to any of her previous employers. They could, at the very least, just LISTENED to us. They never did. That cannot be ignored, unless you wish CPS to ignore all allegations unless they are already proven...to NEVER investigate. And if they do, to simply believe the nice people that say they are inncent. That is why I let them in that day. Investigate I said. We have nothing to hide. I never knew what lengths they would go to show that an upper middle class white family might have problems too. So run your story out for us. It's sure to be interesting. And please, something other than your word for supporting evidence of the truth of the story. We've had a rash of socks here lately trying to con the group. I have no care whether you believe me or not. This is my therapy, not yours. The "woe is me" was so thick I considered composting it. And suddenly when asked for some details to work with to understand the story, they just kind of wafted away on the scent rising from the pile. Ask any question you like about the case. Perhaps it might serve as an education. Please stay. Please give us something truthful. It is so extremely rare around here we miss it. Only a half dozen posters that tell the truth, on both sides of the issue, and about 15 from the KILLCPS crowd that seems to have captured your heart who do nothing but lie. They can't even key in a subject field that's moderatly accurate. The only people that have captured my heart are my family. I'm an old army officer - I wrote the book on cynical. Have at it. Tell CPS how it should be running its business...and drop the platitudes about more kindly and more carefully and with less mistakes. I'm not asking WHAT at this point, I'm asking HOW to do WHAT you claim they don't. Anybody, just join right in. Though I need a half hour to set a new handle to my manure fork. It's been a rough year so far on your friendly ascps newsgroup. Keep in mind that news media usually friendly to the muckrackers is starting to admit, as is the famous Dr. Geller, that FUNDING is and has been horrible. You might also have heard of the problems with substance abuse, that seems to be a part of almost every one that comes here and fesses up honestly. So line those innocent families up that you know, send them around. If they are still in trouble, even if guilty, they could get some much needed help here. I got an idea. Go work for CPS for a few months. I hear they are becoming increasingly short handed and increasing burdened trying to catch up. I have worked in the social services field. In detention centres for at risk youth. I know the story. I knew for years this wave of CPS failures was coming. In 1990 I bearded a state senator in the halls of capitol and asked what she was prepared to do about the 85 caseload average in her state, and the shellshocked workers that were being introduced to the wonderful world of homebrew meth. and that fallout for children. I think she actually did get things going a bit, caseloads dropped to 60 average per worker. Wheee for the workers, I think they celebrated on one break and then had to get back to their desks, their calls to go out and enter pigstys with camera ready, and guessing if someone would stick a knife in them this time. And then my favorite worker that had a call on a lovely family, professionals, a realtor and a registered nurse, and they were so nice, just so nice, and she backed down just a hair when they said two times on different visits their dear daughter was sleeping....could she come back later, and later the baby was found in a dumpster, dead..and the parents were in needle park kind sorta glazed over. Cases like that are one in a mililion and you know it. You'd be amazed how good people can look when they are in the right phase of their high. Straight as you and I, well I can only speak to how I look. But stone cold killers. It was hard to find an unbroken bone in the three year olds body, below the neckline. The really knew how to discipline. Kane I think you have some seriously repressed issues. Care to chat sometime? Cheers, Sheila |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
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(Kane) wrote in message . com... I wonder if you'd like a pilot to do herpreflight on a plane you are taking by walking around doing her makeup rather than the checklist for aircraft safe operation? Or would you claim a doctor is incompetent because he actually takes your vitals and checks his PDR and specific referrance books before making a diagnosis on YOU? Or your kin? looking up the risks on a medication, which does not have a constitutional right to parent or privacy, looking up the risk on machine problems, and looking up the similarities between child abusers and normal parents are completely different. When you get a red light during a preflight check it MEANS problem.. when you have a parent with previous unsubstantiated abuse allegations or more than 2 kids or financial problems.. that doesn't mean abuse. I've been on this NG off and on for a year now, but damn, Kane. If you are willing to give up your freedom and that of your child due to this type of silly assessment / risk sheet.. fine. be my guest. I for one will not. Furthermore, just because you're willing to waive your rights, doesn't mean that those of us who choose not to are below you. In fact, I'd say anyone willing to invite unspervised scrutiny and waive the rights that our forefathers fought for is probably lower on the intellectual totem poll than I am. The fact that I was on low-dose, extended morphine at the time of investigation ( I had just had my kidney/part of my liver/hysterctomy removed) was brought up by DFS in court - they tried to use this a potential indication of drug abuse. The judge told them that they were being ridiculous and he, himself, was on the same medication and had been for years. |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:04:29 GMT, Sheila J wrote:
Kane wrote: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:06:03 GMT, Sheila J wrote: superfluous matter snipped.................... The response I would expect Kane. Gosh are we long time friends then ol' sock? No. I meant that is the response that I would expect from any rationale person and the response I was anticipating. I have no idea who you are, nor do you know who I am. Yes. I know. And okay, my response was rational. I don't recall meeting you before, as Sheila You've posted 18 times to ascps and only as far back as January 28 this year. My you are "fast" and only on our second or third date. But what I have found is that when one becomes involved in this type of situation, one then finds out about the dozens of other families that have had similiar experiences. Sure one does. And one believes anything one is told by one to another doesn't one, if it fits in ones current bitch and ax to grind and ox goring. Not at all. But these are families I know personally. That I see at church and at my children's events. That I've been to their houses for functions. Great families. To find out they had similiar experiences is ground shaking. I had no idea that these things were as common as they were. How common is that? And you've never been surprized to learn that such a family might be maintaining a facade? Where do all the abusers come from if not a few from "nice" families? And is CPS to judge soley on the nice externals? People you would have never thought. I believe (strongly) that most people do not mean to harm their children - the cases of true neglect and abuse are few and far between. People you would have thought, etc. have turned out to be secret substance abusers, incestuous child molesters, and in a few cases child killers. Do you think they all were ID tags as molesters and have snaggle teeth and never shave or bathe? No, not at all. Please don't insult my intelligence. You seem quite ready to assume that "nice" families like yours don't abuse. That's hardly an insult to your intelligence, but rather an observation that you haven't refuted yet. My point , or should I say my opinion, is that MOST parents want to be good parents. Man of Straw. No one, least of all me, who has had ample opportunity to not only make comparisons, but up close with both kinds of families. I can assure you you are correct...and that STILL does not address the need for investigation should allegations be made. Some might not have the tools they need and DO NEED assistance. Yes? And? Have you been to the legislature to lobby and speak in favor of the change you wish and are you ready to be taxed to pay for it? But charging in and making accussations is NOT the way to go about helping families. Well, your hyperbolic choice of emotionaly charged words aside, what would constitute in investigation without "accusations" and "charging in?" Shall they NOT tell the parents what the allegations are, and what points, in an objective assessment list (by the way, I've heard some thoughts that "the list" has been routinely screening out families and lowering caseloads....you heard anything contrary?) should they NOT ask. Subjecting them to incredible amounts of further stress is NOT the way to help. Did you not win a settlement on this? Putting them under financial constraints by forcing them to hire a lawyer is NOT the way to effectively case manage a family in crisis. Did you not win a settlement on this? How would you, outside of cutting the family loose without and investigation, "effectively case manage a family in crisis" and convince the tax payers that was the way to do it....you do know that more resources cost more money, do you not? Take more time. Use more people (or do you think the person doing the investigation should also being the one to "manage a family in crisis?") If more time/energy/pressure/money was put to really find the children that are in serious danger, then social workers would not be so overworked and mistakes would not be made. And that is done without investigation how again? The phrase "really find the children that are in serious danger," propaganda like in it's presumption that that isn't already being done is bandied about here frequently....but, no one seems to actually be able to come up with a formula for sorting, other than a suggestion that cases that haven't resulted in injury or death yet be passed over and only the injury and death cases be investigated....like it takes much at that point. How many child abusers do you think are going to spill their guts to you or anyone honestly? The ALL ARE INNOCENT EVEN WHEN THE MARKS ON THEIR CHILD AND THERE WAS AN EYE WITNESS AND THE CHILD SAYS THEY DID IT. No answer....well I expected as much. They wake up and try to get honest usually too late, at a show cause for TPR. Kinda doesn't work after months of denial and tons of refusal to do anything to get their children back. As I said before, I think parents for the most part want to be good parents. Yes, repeating it is building a larger strawman. The issue is not "good parents" or those that want to be, but bad parents and those that do not know how to be good parents. If there is physical abuse in the home, then yes, intervention is crucial. I have no tolerance for abuse of any sort. But there must be better ways of assisting a family than tearing it apart. Name them. Most take the advice of the sickos here that try to engage them in frontal combat (sacrificing them as pawns of course, and their spattered little bootied dance dance dance, onto the next unsuspecting parent that shows up here asking for help.) You might be even better, you sould so plausible. Got a good coach? Yes, my father. Who is a police chief of a large force and who raised me by himself. I was the product of an incredible amount of abuse as a child. Abuse my father never knew about because I never told him. I'm not just pontificating here. I needed help and received none. Your father didn't know, but you needed help and received none. Why did you not receive help? Who else didn't know? But I didn't let it destroy me and it made me a much stronger person. I have seen babies murdered in Rwanda and children killed by landmines in Croatia. I'm an old soul in a young body. When were you in Rwanda, and I find it odd you'd just mention babies, as if you were there you'd more likely have known that everyone was killed, young, old, male, female. And would more likely have mentioned the collective slaughter unless your focus on babies had a more powerful emotional impact you wanted. Yes, I'd say you are definately an old sould in a young body. Me, I'm a young soul in an old body. And the old body has seen a great deal that tells me you are shinin' us on. It's called perspective. It's called hyperbole when you leave out the facts, and use a lot of emotionally charged wording. When you have you been a CPS worker, or have ridden herd on them as long as I have get back to me. For all the harsh criticisms I've had of CPS and all the methods I've taught families to use to get around CPS interestingly the only comeback I ever had was a complaint that I mentioned the 23rd Psalm (I'm an athiest) in relation to that old saw about the "spare the rod and spoil the child" that the spanking compulsives like to come up with. CPS LET me, in fact urged me, to educate people, relatives mostly, in the very things that would make casework better. How to force a worker to respond. How to use misinformation in behalf of the family and child. How to get correct information. How to access services for child and family. How to support the client family if you were a relative. I think most people that find themselves dealing with CPS are in need of assistance, not accusations, threats etc. And you went to the state capitol and lobbied for funding for these programs, right? Not American. But yes to your above. Provincial capitol then. What did you do and is there a citation that will support your claim....and I find it odd that if there is you wouldn't have pointed to it here. And the folks needing help are lined up outside the CPS offices all over the land just asking for some help with ending their drugs, drink, and child burning, beating, and trading for drugs...yup...you got the answer allrighty. Why the heck would they line up when they know they ARE NOT going to get help - they will get accusations and threats. Actually in the U.S. they do get help. What slows down the requests is the lie that they will have their children taken from them, and that lie by yahoos such as in this ng. Even families that ARE investigated, and ARE found to be putting their children at risk, have them returned and are afforded services, just like you request...even homemaking, job search, drug rehab, educational support. What happened in the last 20 years in the US, marked from about the end of Regan years, was a gradual erroding of those services and funding for them. It's been ebb and retreat for all of that time, and never a full return to the levels of the last 70's when every little burg had a youth center or two, and CPS staffed by trained social workers. They might lose their children. Why would they ask for help if that is the risk?? They wouldn't and that's a lie. That simple. That a few have lost their children is NOT a trend. It's just a lie. Mostly when they do it is by neglect connected to incapacity from substance abuse. And even then 20 to 30% are placed with relatives while the family get's their act together if they can. The yahoos here claim that the "services" are punitive, when they are rehab and child development and parenting education, yet most of the yahoos exhibit that THEY THEMSELVES badly need those kinds of services. I'm not saying there is not a need for these social workers in our society - I am saying that there is a need for controls. Name them. Then finance them. As half our family income goes in taxes, That's what happens in a socialist country when you have a large income. Frankly I'm all for it. The extremely wealthy in our country are undertaxed, and often pay NO taxes. I would say that I am financing them. YOU DID NOT NAME THEM as I asked. You are attempting to build an argument based on opinion. I'm happy to share opinions, but then that ends pretty quickly. I want specifics because specifics are what is needed to correct failings in the system, if they actually exist. And you have not pointed to budget items in comparison to other items that would suggest to me that an adequate proportion of budget going ot child welfare. Our case was the perfect example of what can go wrong. What went wrong? You had someone make an accusation. Was CPS to forget it because you are nice? That has been put forth as a claim in these ngs...."the wealthy people with clout are NOT investigated and that's why children are abused and neglected by such folks and get away with it." Baaaad CP They put us through 4 months of hell. You may know that. I cannot if you don't say what they subjected you to. My husbands career was seriously jeopardized because he needed to be returneed home for 'family problems'. Unlike other family crises? Like all families exprience from time to time? Deaths, jobs loss, natural catastrophe, illnesses? They made our family jump through a dozen hoops And those were? and we were submitted to any number of personal indignities. And those were? Hell, I've had the postal service picking in me since I use them a lot. The money and time I've had to invest in meeting their ever increasingly higher set "hoops" over the years would make a saint sob. And I get no settlement to ease my pain. You did yet you are still howling as though you are injured without compensation. Dreaded outcomes? Our family was almost destroyed over this. I don't doubt it. You seem near hysteria. As wealthy as you are you couldn't afford a hotshot attorney? I wonder what kinds of fool things your attorny did do? Yes, we did have a good attorney. Which is why we won a large settlement. Which is why our children were never taken. . Which is why our ordeal only lasted 4 months and we had the outcome we did. My concern, however, is for those families that DO NOT have those resources. How do they cope? How do they manage? My heart bleeds for them. So the answer is to cut back on investigations from allegations, be nice when investigating, leave the children with the alledged perps (as is often demanded in these ngs), and up the rate of child fatalities and injuries at the hands of family. Or you have another answer, possibly? Near hysteria? You have no idea! Of course not. But you do seem so. It's possible to get children back home in as little as four months WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY AS SIN FOR USING METH WHILE PREGNANT and similar problems. It's been done by someone in this ng, and he's done a good deal more. Well, certainly not in Canada. I don't doubt, given that his ability is as much a matter of tactical good sense as knowledge he's dug up with hard work, he could DO Canada just as well as he flattened NY CPS. And that was rather well, R R R R I suspect they still put on Depends before dealing with him anymore. 2 years later and we are still recovering. An investigation that failed to convict and you are still recovering? A case you won and you are still recovering? Of course. It's the accussation that kills the family. Did CPS put your name in the paper with the accusation? Are they to NOT tell you the allegation made about you? Are you aware that when a cop or any other investigator asks questions that they appear as accusations to the subject being questioned? Hell, I once had a storage building broken into and thousands of dollars of tools and machinery stolen, and when the cop came to respond to my complaint of the robbery....I FELT LIKE THE SUSPECT BEING INTERROGATED. Fortunately for me I used to teach interrogation ... we called it "interview" techiques so burst out laughing when he hit on one of my old ones...that I invented...."are you going to tell me." Even with all that, the words coming from a large man in uniform with a gun, got to me for a second. There is no way to do an investigation. without screwing it up badly, and tend to the feelings of the one being interrogated. Its the thought that someone COULD possibly think that you would ever do anything to harm your children. Yep, and to the investigator it is also the thought (they know you are under exactly that pressure) that you COULD be harming your children and they can't tell until they investigate, and sometimes a court decides. What would you have them do? That someone out there honestly believed that we would could abuse the children that we adore. I have read the reports and I have heard the same words and more exclaimed by parents that were molesting and selling their children for drugs....it's an old refrain, "Don't take my babies, I love them so." but of course they love their habit more. Having to turn open our lives to one and all. What? That IS criminal. The public got the full file on you? Because your CPS released it? To have people come into our home three times a week and assess our parenting. Yes, that IS difficult. It is a violation of one's most basic civil liberties Unless your constitution is considerably different than ours (and I've read yours so I know better) our "basic civil liberties" in an investigation and supervision were not violated. Your children's were protected. That is hard. Moreso for an innocent parent most likely. But it is NOT a violation of any such thing. It's a violation of your FEELINGS, not your rights. And YOUR feelings and YOUR right don't come before your children's. and it's a affront to the most sacred of all things in our society - the family unit. Oh, here we go again. No. The most sacred thing of all in society is LIFE. And that IS the concern of CPS, the child's life. It's the terror on the kids faces when the doorbell rings because they too, still feel the stress of the ordeal. I'm sure they do with your attitude. You did not have the courage to teach them the truth, but only spewed your feelings on them. How can you be so flippant and callous to a families feelings? I am not the least flippant. I am telling you flat out that "feelings" take second ranking to LIVES. Children's lives. How can YOU be so flippant about the thousands of children whose lives are saved by intervention? And the thousands that are NOT saved by it happening in time? It brought back to the surface every fear and feeling of shame I felt as a child. Of course. I'm not the least surprised nor minimizing it. I am just not focusing on YOUR distress, but on the risk to the children should you have been a family that WAS abusing and or neglecting. To be judged the same as my abusers? I beg your pardon. You told me that you won in court. An accusation, an investigation, are neither judgements of you. They are speculations to be cleared up. The judicial process did that. And those poor families you are sooooo concerned about? I've heard of poor families doing quite well in court with good coaching. The reason you hear of so few is that cases don't get to court unless the DA, our equivolent of the Crown Prosecutor, or whatever you call them, doesn let cases GET TO COURT unless all the ducks are in a row for proof of guilt and conviction. This fact alone lets the whiners pretend they are victims, like our own Whore and The Plant. When NOTHING at all happened to them. They simply get investigated. How does one ever recover from that? Well I recovered from live crises as severe or worse so I'll happily tell you. Some help, some of it from friends, some from paid experts in dealing with the issues, some from one's past experiences in recovering, and some by the passage of time. We are tough creatures. But more importantly, let me volunteer how NOT to recover. First you must do a lot of blaming. Then a lot of lying to yourself. Then some more blaming. Heap on the catastrophizing, like "how does one ever" and look for losers to hang out with. One can keep healing at bay for decades, even a lifetime doing that. Let me suggest some truth finding. Go to your local child welfare office. Ask for their data and information packets about the real nature and size of child abuse in your country. Dig out facts. You'll start to understand the issue better and give yourself a break. If you were an abused child I can assure you you are NOT alone, nor were you then, except you didn't know there were others. Thousands of others, hundreds each time you experienced abuse...hundreds of other children were abused similarly. When you start looking for facts instead of reinforcment of your helplessness and claim that it's all just a huge conspiracy against parents, you'll start healing...as in getting over it. Winning a settlement did nothing but vindicate our reputation. Ah, that IS the purpose of the legal system,...and YOU won a settlement, recovered your reputation and you are still recovering? See above. You miss the point. It isn't supposed to do more than that. The compensation is for what you claim is your pain NOW, and the trouble you are going to to get over it. The settlement is supposed to be to recover your pain and suffering, not to stop it. It's been paid for by the settlement because pain and suffering is real in cases where people are accused and investigated and turn out to be innocent...but that does NOT equate with CPS not doing its job correctly. We didn't need the money. We needed closure. Which you appear to be holding off nicely. One of the surest ways to stop closure is to pick at the scab and whine over the pain of the picking. But that doesn't make the feelings go away. Nope. You are really not on a path to recovery either, with what you've shared so far. You are drawing your own blood, and the little dancers here just looooove it. You are unaware that the pain you felt on accusation and investigation is OUT IN THE OPEN and was then. The pain here is subrosa, sneaky, slow, poisonous. The hyenas circle and nip you with little encouragements to join in their loserhood. You are relishing the chance to blame and to declare helplessness. Yet you have shown nothing, nothing at all, factually, just your "feelilngs." I'm okay with folks showing their feelings, but for healing doing that here is like blood in the water to sharks. They don't want you to heal, they want to cruise through the blood and drink deeply and wound you further. It's the KILLCPS modus operandi. Exactly what statutes and policies did the investigation break? Nothing? You don't want to heal. You want to wallow. It did nothing to help put our family back together. And that is precisely WHY settlements are won .... to compensate you for your work having to put your family back together. That was done with love and constant, extreme effort. Like I said. My fears are for those people that do not have that type of strength. I'll try to say this as kindly as possible. I don't believe you. You don't know me. Yep, but you seem to want to use my ignorance of you. Nor do I care about your opinion. That's obvious. But then why are you posting and replying to me? Said as kindly as possible. There is nothing quite so sad as the fake kindly declaration, when it's so obvious the intent isn't. Could you point us to some public sources that tell YOUR story. I'll be happy to apoligize if you are real. At this point I'm beginning to doubt the oh-so-conveniently-fitting-the-nonsense-claims-of-the-fools-in-this-ng story. I'm not THAT public, Kane. NOr do I need your validation. Sorry. I see, just a little public, just a little within the limits of eliciting sympathy but that's all. Okay, no problem. And of course you don't need my validation. I'm not asked to validate you. I'm asking you not to continue to con me and other readers by putting out the bathos and withholding the fact. Don't fret. It's very common here. You aren't the first. I don't 'blow hard' before I act. Do I hear the tinkle of a cash register and the ambitious grunts of yet another KILLCPS candidate for president and chair of a group collecting membership fees and contributions? You have a lot of competition. It's a popular gig these days. That makes no sense to me. But then I'm Canadian. Less competition then? You are writing very like a few KILL CPS organization heads were writing before they went into the business. I have seen too much in this life to ever act before I think. Were you thinking when you hired that nanny? No, of course not. You were doing your job as parent, but you made a mistake. I trusted the agency. That is why they were paid 2500 dollars. To NOT make mistakes. Yep. Sue'em into poverty. But don't use that as an excuse for CPS to NOT do their job as mandated. This applies to CPS investigations as well. They do their job, they make mistakes. And for those there needs to be restitution and reform of the system. Unfortunately and the thousands of instances where they do their job and are completly justified and correct in many and outcome, those guilty folks are also free to deny and to come trippin' in here to whine and look for loser company who will back their claims of being "done wrong." Is this not a support group for those very people? Yes. It is. Does "support" include a place where victims clump together so blood suckers won't have to work so hard to find them? You really must google on some of our regulars. I'd suggest The Plant for a start, then the alwas whining The Whore/Gigolo, then Dennis Deakin...he's a laugh a minute when it comes to helping families. There are others you'll met along the way. Should this not be the place for them? I would think alt.support.CPS workers would be the place for you? Since I'm not one, that wouldn't compute, and if there was such a place and I went there and they knew my history I'd not be very welcome. I've been known to speak to some workers just like I do to some yahoos here, and get a couple fired over the years. But there has to be a stop to all these mistakes. The damage is too great. How would YOU stop it? You have a cure? Does it include destroying CPS and building a new system with the same budget? Wanna guess who would be hired? No, it includes being vigalent. And helping other families who require help. Sounds great to me. Where do I sign up? And what's the membership "contribution." And are you fundy christian and have other agendas I don't agree with? And why YOU and not me, for ways to improve the system? Interestingly, your suggestion is what I already do. Are YOU doing it? How have you helped families? What have you found in your vigilence so far? I've asked for facts and you seem short on them. Mostly you've spewed the platitudes of the lying I've seen on websites. Half truths, outlandish claims based on partial revelations, nonsense. Where would the trained people come from...why from the ranks of the people fired upon destruction of CPS. Unless you think you have a better sources better trained and more dedicated that will work in the sewers of dysfunctional family life, with the dangerous criminal drug folks, and put up with interfamily soap opera and carry a caseload of 40 to 50 rountinly. Tell us what you will do to "reform" CPS. I love it when people say they need dedicated workers who won't care about income so much as families and children, so over course THEIR children get to go barefoot proving how much they care for families. MmmmmmmHHHmmmmmmmmm.. Sure. People who have the general interests of family at heart. I believe I asked you who and where much more specifically than that. Not a description of their sainthood. So, what people, class, profession, do you think these paragons will come from and how shall you test them? Does your neighborhood overflow with budding Mother Teresa's (who by the way was revealed as a death watcher and NOT a healer) Not people who get off on the high of having this much power. I've met very few child welfare workers that got off on a high or though they had "this much power." I've met a lot of ignorant folks that think they do though. In fact I've heard workers say explicitly it is one of the more onerous aspects of their job, that they are FORCED by it, to make decisions that are so powerful in affect. I hear that's one of the reasons for supervisors, review committees, and the courts. Not the cynics. I don't don't know about that. There is a resident cynic here, a bobb person, that was recently entertaining the idea of taking up my challenge to fix the system personally. He would be more or less on your side, I think. Not the paranoid. The day to day work of the child welfare worker makes them very clear on what is and isn't a danger. They are right more often than wrong. That seems to negate any concerns I have about paranoia. In fact I note a great deal of paranoia by parents, when the vast major...huge majority,....SUPER majority...will never come into contact with CPS in their lifetime. They would be better served to keep their auto brakes in good condition, as something to worry about. The compassionate. Well, this will send up a howl, I'm sure, but on visits to court, and to CPS offices, and the places where they go for lunch, I don't think I've ever met a group of people with more compassion than child welfare workers. Even what you complain about is of concern of them...who to better care for the families they must investigate...it's a theme over lunch. And the subject of consultations and special issue committees I've both attended and read the minutes of. The consensus and I agree, is that they would have to sacrifice children to MORE delicate in handling the "feelings" of parents, and in the end, the child is their primary client...his or her situation draws the larger measure of compassion. I think lawyers should work for half pay, doctors at a third, and those lazy postal people should just volunteer for the healty outdoor life when they are not at a bench all day laughing it up with their cronies and doing those fun skate mailcarting 5 or 6 hundred pounds around the cold or too hot warehouses. I could use some employees that would work for me out of dedication to my business. Got any? In your own case, vis a vis, reform: What was CPS supposed to do, take your word for your innocence? Ignore an allegation of abuse by a trained child care person...that ARE under mandate to report in most states, and obviously she ID'd herself. That's hot stuff and very hard to schelp on by without notice. Perhaps put in perspective that she was fired after 4 days. And how would that lead them to assume she was 100% likely to be lying? With her a mandate reporter and presumably a history of professional child care? Check into her past. Running background checks on accusers while the children wait is NOT what CPS is mandated to do. She hadn't lasted more than 3 months at any nanny job she had. That's nice. And it still does NOT let CPS off the hood to investigate you with considerably haste. If a stranger walked in off the street and made an allegation of serious enough abuse and neglect they are required by policy and statute to investigate the allegation, not the accuser. If you think it should be otherwise, change the law. The agency neglected to tell us this. Not a CPS issue and they could not know this. They refused to talk to any of her previous employers. It wouldn't have mattered if she were a convicted ax murderer. The presence of an allegation from any source requires investigation of the allegation. And YOU don't really KNOW if they did or didn't talk to them. And it's NOT their job. If you are accused by someone until such time as you bring charges against them there is NO mechanism for the state to intervene. You used the law. It worked for you. But your cannot negate another law in your favor on your say so. They could, at the very least, just LISTENED to us. They never did. No, you are now way over the edge. If you told them they listened to you. What you really mean is that they didn't take the action YOU required of them when you told them...or as far as you know they didn't. Not guilt on the part of the nanny, other than proving she was lying, is any concern to CPS. She could be an ax murderer. The accusation is the thing, not the character of the accuser. Otherwise when some altogether nasty piece of work saw and reported a WITNESSED ABUSE OF A CHILD CPS would have to just ignore it based on the character of the accuser, NOT THE FACTS of an investigation. That cannot be ignored, unless you wish CPS to ignore all allegations unless they are already proven...to NEVER investigate. And if they do, to simply believe the nice people that say they are inncent. That is why I let them in that day. Investigate I said. We have nothing to hide. I never knew what lengths they would go to show that an upper middle class white family might have problems too. Now you know. But you haven't told us specifically what they did. You have told us the reaction you had, and that is about it. They came in. They investigated. They went to "lengths" to show you might have problems. All you have really done is describe a thorough investigation. Did you attorney not USE the investigation itself to prove you innocent? And to sue successfully in your behalf? If she didn't she was dunce and you were very lucky. So run your story out for us. It's sure to be interesting. And please, something other than your word for supporting evidence of the truth of the story. We've had a rash of socks here lately trying to con the group. I have no care whether you believe me or not. You seem to be posting a lot to me for not caring. This is my therapy, not yours. So far it appears your are still in the whiney stage. I would have thought you got past that using some of your wealth, by now. Did your therapist recommend you do an online support group? Does your therapist know that there are folks in it that are NOT in recovery, but are in fact here to bleed you? And dance in your blood and congratulate your for your injury rather than your recovery? The "woe is me" was so thick I considered composting it. And suddenly when asked for some details to work with to understand the story, they just kind of wafted away on the scent rising from the pile. Ask any question you like about the case. Perhaps it might serve as an education. I already did, and you didn't respond. You won't find many here using the facts for therapy though. What you will find is catastrophizing elevation of your situation to enrage you. They love it. And you will be steered by a pimp to web sites that will capitolize further on YOUR pain and attempt to recovery, all the while cranking your rage higher. And in the end you'll have nothing but your rage. You then are theirs. Please stay. Please give us something truthful. It is so extremely rare around here we miss it. Only a half dozen posters that tell the truth, on both sides of the issue, and about 15 from the KILLCPS crowd that seems to have captured your heart who do nothing but lie. They can't even key in a subject field that's moderatly accurate. The only people that have captured my heart are my family. I'm an old army officer - I wrote the book on cynical. Then you would have to disqualify yourself on the criteria to be a child welfare worker. Have at it. Tell CPS how it should be running its business...and drop the platitudes about more kindly and more carefully and with less mistakes. I'm not asking WHAT at this point, I'm asking HOW to do WHAT you claim they don't. Anybody, just join right in. Though I need a half hour to set a new handle to my manure fork. It's been a rough year so far on your friendly ascps newsgroup. Keep in mind that news media usually friendly to the muckrackers is starting to admit, as is the famous Dr. Geller, that FUNDING is and has been horrible. You might also have heard of the problems with substance abuse, that seems to be a part of almost every one that comes here and fesses up honestly. So line those innocent families up that you know, send them around. If they are still in trouble, even if guilty, they could get some much needed help here. I got an idea. Go work for CPS for a few months. I hear they are becoming increasingly short handed and increasing burdened trying to catch up. I have worked in the social services field. In detention centres for at risk youth. I know the story. And what was your job? I knew for years this wave of CPS failures was coming. In 1990 I bearded a state senator in the halls of capitol and asked what she was prepared to do about the 85 caseload average in her state, and the shellshocked workers that were being introduced to the wonderful world of homebrew meth. and that fallout for children. I think she actually did get things going a bit, caseloads dropped to 60 average per worker. Wheee for the workers, I think they celebrated on one break and then had to get back to their desks, their calls to go out and enter pigstys with camera ready, and guessing if someone would stick a knife in them this time. And then my favorite worker that had a call on a lovely family, professionals, a realtor and a registered nurse, and they were so nice, just so nice, and she backed down just a hair when they said two times on different visits their dear daughter was sleeping....could she come back later, and later the baby was found in a dumpster, dead..and the parents were in needle park kind sorta glazed over. Cases like that are one in a mililion and you know it. Nope. 38% of infanticides are by mothers in this country. I doubt CA is different by much. Over 80% are by both parents. 30% of the remaining 17% by caregivers are kin, relatives. And as for druggies killing their kids...where ever did you get the idea it was on in a million? I guess CA is drug and alcohol free then? And more deaths of children are from neglect than direct violent abuse. If you can't connect the dots to drug abuse, just like that couple, you aren't as experienced as you claim. Not if you worked with adjudicated youth. You apparently didn't read their files. I did. 1980 through 85 specifically with juvenile populations. A few were in lockup for murder....of their own child or their girl friend's child by someone else. You'd be amazed how good people can look when they are in the right phase of their high. Straight as you and I, well I can only speak to how I look. But stone cold killers. It was hard to find an unbroken bone in the three year olds body, below the neckline. The really knew how to discipline. Kane I think you have some seriously repressed issues. Care to chat sometime? What seems to be missing, in that statement, and most of your posts, is fact. What would those repressed issues be? That I don't like children killed and injured? Thank you, I'm not repressing. You'll notice I put them right out there. Cheers, Sheila Cheery bye, Kane |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
) wrote in message . com...
(Kane) wrote in message . com... I wonder if you'd like a pilot to do herpreflight on a plane you are taking by walking around doing her makeup rather than the checklist for aircraft safe operation? Or would you claim a doctor is incompetent because he actually takes your vitals and checks his PDR and specific referrance books before making a diagnosis on YOU? Or your kin? looking up the risks on a medication, which does not have a constitutional right to parent or privacy, looking up the risk on machine problems, and looking up the similarities between child abusers and normal parents are completely different. Yes, that is the point of metaphor. If I used an exact one it would have to be simply a copy of the specific instance being examined. There is a similarity. And there is no constitutional protection for child abuse, hence there is not constitutional protection from being investigated. There IS one for TPRing a parent, and that is where the constitional rubber hits the road, and it's silly of you folks to keep misplacing it to the front of the issue. Would you claim that police have not constitutional right to investigate, and to use an assessment tool that required them to cover certain points in interrogation? When you get a red light during a preflight check it MEANS problem.. when you have a parent with previous unsubstantiated abuse allegations or more than 2 kids or financial problems.. that doesn't mean abuse. That's right. That's why single items, unless they were convictions of serious abuse and or homocide of a child, or domestically, do not constitute on their own cause for removal of a child or opening a CPS case to caseload. If you are going to give advice you really really need to bone up on some facts. Pointing to the discomfort of the accused or suspected is so often the impetus for claiming constitutional violation by CPS...yet how many cases actually related directly to that issue (Please don't run out the usual school or mother in law restraint old saws on me. I get soooo tired of refuting those as not applying). I've been on this NG off and on for a year now, Mmmmhmmmm..... but damn, Kane. If you are willing to give up your freedom and that of your child due to this type of silly assessment / risk sheet.. fine. be my guest. I am willing for the state to conduct an investigation if they do so within statute and policy. If they do that I am sure to win if I have not abused my child, and by golly, if they don't even if I HAVE abused my child, I'll win. Why would I be willing to subject myself to this? Because of all the children who ARE abused, and even killed at the hands of their parents that might be saved by preserving this right of theirs to protection. I for one will not. Yes, I can see that. You are quite selfish then and don't care for all the other children. The grandparents that watch their own children abuse their children can be damned, eh? Furthermore, just because you're willing to waive your rights, Which "rights" am I waving? As far as I know, we do NOT have rights that superceed anothers. If I am alledged to have commited a crime then I may well have violated another's rights (almost certainly...in the individual or collective sense) and I damn well want to be cleared and I do NOT want, if I am not a criminal, to have the process subverted, for when MY RIGHTS MIGHT BE VIOLATED AND IT MY TURN TO CALL ON THE LAW TO PROTECT ME. doesn't mean that those of us who choose not to are below you. Nope. I have never considered the stupid or ignorant below me. I just try to help where I can. You put parent's rights over children's rights (which by the way is still the rule) you are asking for more child deaths and injuries, and people who grow up to be stupid and ignorant as well as mentally ill, often dangerously so. In fact, I'd say anyone willing to invite unspervised scrutiny and waive the rights that our forefathers fought for is probably lower on the intellectual totem poll than I am. Please point out where I invite "unspervised" (sic) "scrutiny and waive the rights" etc. I constantly point to the courts, to the law, to assistance from those who have proven they can best CPS, and am routinely ignored by yahoos. You aren't a yahoo are you? They call me an apologist because I insist on the constitution and case law, and investigations that stick to objective measures (which you folks seem to mistake for something other than it is...as in The List). Our forefathers, if they intended for slaves and women and children to remain slaves and chattel for easy use and disposal would have been wrong, in my way of thinking. Yet those conditions existed at that time. Slaves were not people, but males slaves in some states, part people, (dontchajustloveit) and women were too "emotion driven" and children were possessions to have any rights. So we that moved on used the constitution to correct those outrages. Do you wish to return to those times with those conditions? If so, please defend your choice. And if you will, in light of you being female and assuming you've had children, would also be smart and informed and intelligent. Obviously my equal. Wherever, by the way, did you get the idea that those that agree with me, essentially, escape my sometime sharp tongue? Dumb is dumb, not unequal to me. I have my own stupid moments. I try to fix them instead of try to convince others I was smart and correct. I give you the Doananator. Now there is one I'm tempted to degrade. R R R R Thanks, Kane |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
Kane wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:04:29 GMT, Sheila J wrote: Kane wrote: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:06:03 GMT, Sheila J wrote: superfluous matter snipped.................... The response I would expect Kane. Gosh are we long time friends then ol' sock? No. I meant that is the response that I would expect from any rationale person and the response I was anticipating. I have no idea who you are, nor do you know who I am. Yes. I know. And okay, my response was rational. I don't recall meeting you before, as Sheila You've posted 18 times to ascps and only as far back as January 28 this year. My you are "fast" and only on our second or third date. But what I have found is that when one becomes involved in this type of situation, one then finds out about the dozens of other families that have had similiar experiences. Sure one does. And one believes anything one is told by one to another doesn't one, if it fits in ones current bitch and ax to grind and ox goring. Not at all. But these are families I know personally. That I see at church and at my children's events. That I've been to their houses for functions. Great families. To find out they had similiar experiences is ground shaking. I had no idea that these things were as common as they were. How common is that? And you've never been surprized to learn that such a family might be maintaining a facade? Where do all the abusers come from if not a few from "nice" families? And is CPS to judge soley on the nice externals? People you would have never thought. I believe (strongly) that most people do not mean to harm their children - the cases of true neglect and abuse are few and far between. People you would have thought, etc. have turned out to be secret substance abusers, incestuous child molesters, and in a few cases child killers. Do you think they all were ID tags as molesters and have snaggle teeth and never shave or bathe? No, not at all. Please don't insult my intelligence. You seem quite ready to assume that "nice" families like yours don't abuse. That's hardly an insult to your intelligence, but rather an observation that you haven't refuted yet. My point , or should I say my opinion, is that MOST parents want to be good parents. Man of Straw. No one, least of all me, who has had ample opportunity to not only make comparisons, but up close with both kinds of families. I can assure you you are correct...and that STILL does not address the need for investigation should allegations be made. Some might not have the tools they need and DO NEED assistance. Yes? And? Have you been to the legislature to lobby and speak in favor of the change you wish and are you ready to be taxed to pay for it? But charging in and making accussations is NOT the way to go about helping families. Well, your hyperbolic choice of emotionaly charged words aside, what would constitute in investigation without "accusations" and "charging in?" Shall they NOT tell the parents what the allegations are, and what points, in an objective assessment list (by the way, I've heard some thoughts that "the list" has been routinely screening out families and lowering caseloads....you heard anything contrary?) should they NOT ask. Subjecting them to incredible amounts of further stress is NOT the way to help. Did you not win a settlement on this? Putting them under financial constraints by forcing them to hire a lawyer is NOT the way to effectively case manage a family in crisis. Did you not win a settlement on this? How would you, outside of cutting the family loose without and investigation, "effectively case manage a family in crisis" and convince the tax payers that was the way to do it....you do know that more resources cost more money, do you not? Take more time. Use more people (or do you think the person doing the investigation should also being the one to "manage a family in crisis?") If more time/energy/pressure/money was put to really find the children that are in serious danger, then social workers would not be so overworked and mistakes would not be made. And that is done without investigation how again? The phrase "really find the children that are in serious danger," propaganda like in it's presumption that that isn't already being done is bandied about here frequently....but, no one seems to actually be able to come up with a formula for sorting, other than a suggestion that cases that haven't resulted in injury or death yet be passed over and only the injury and death cases be investigated....like it takes much at that point. How many child abusers do you think are going to spill their guts to you or anyone honestly? The ALL ARE INNOCENT EVEN WHEN THE MARKS ON THEIR CHILD AND THERE WAS AN EYE WITNESS AND THE CHILD SAYS THEY DID IT. No answer....well I expected as much. They wake up and try to get honest usually too late, at a show cause for TPR. Kinda doesn't work after months of denial and tons of refusal to do anything to get their children back. As I said before, I think parents for the most part want to be good parents. Yes, repeating it is building a larger strawman. The issue is not "good parents" or those that want to be, but bad parents and those that do not know how to be good parents. If there is physical abuse in the home, then yes, intervention is crucial. I have no tolerance for abuse of any sort. But there must be better ways of assisting a family than tearing it apart. Name them. Most take the advice of the sickos here that try to engage them in frontal combat (sacrificing them as pawns of course, and their spattered little bootied dance dance dance, onto the next unsuspecting parent that shows up here asking for help.) You might be even better, you sould so plausible. Got a good coach? Yes, my father. Who is a police chief of a large force and who raised me by himself. I was the product of an incredible amount of abuse as a child. Abuse my father never knew about because I never told him. I'm not just pontificating here. I needed help and received none. Your father didn't know, but you needed help and received none. Why did you not receive help? Who else didn't know? But I didn't let it destroy me and it made me a much stronger person. I have seen babies murdered in Rwanda and children killed by landmines in Croatia. I'm an old soul in a young body. When were you in Rwanda, and I find it odd you'd just mention babies, as if you were there you'd more likely have known that everyone was killed, young, old, male, female. And would more likely have mentioned the collective slaughter unless your focus on babies had a more powerful emotional impact you wanted. Yes, I'd say you are definately an old sould in a young body. Me, I'm a young soul in an old body. And the old body has seen a great deal that tells me you are shinin' us on. It's called perspective. It's called hyperbole when you leave out the facts, and use a lot of emotionally charged wording. When you have you been a CPS worker, or have ridden herd on them as long as I have get back to me. For all the harsh criticisms I've had of CPS and all the methods I've taught families to use to get around CPS interestingly the only comeback I ever had was a complaint that I mentioned the 23rd Psalm (I'm an athiest) in relation to that old saw about the "spare the rod and spoil the child" that the spanking compulsives like to come up with. CPS LET me, in fact urged me, to educate people, relatives mostly, in the very things that would make casework better. How to force a worker to respond. How to use misinformation in behalf of the family and child. How to get correct information. How to access services for child and family. How to support the client family if you were a relative. I think most people that find themselves dealing with CPS are in need of assistance, not accusations, threats etc. And you went to the state capitol and lobbied for funding for these programs, right? Not American. But yes to your above. Provincial capitol then. What did you do and is there a citation that will support your claim....and I find it odd that if there is you wouldn't have pointed to it here. And the folks needing help are lined up outside the CPS offices all over the land just asking for some help with ending their drugs, drink, and child burning, beating, and trading for drugs...yup...you got the answer allrighty. Why the heck would they line up when they know they ARE NOT going to get help - they will get accusations and threats. Actually in the U.S. they do get help. What slows down the requests is the lie that they will have their children taken from them, and that lie by yahoos such as in this ng. Even families that ARE investigated, and ARE found to be putting their children at risk, have them returned and are afforded services, just like you request...even homemaking, job search, drug rehab, educational support. What happened in the last 20 years in the US, marked from about the end of Regan years, was a gradual erroding of those services and funding for them. It's been ebb and retreat for all of that time, and never a full return to the levels of the last 70's when every little burg had a youth center or two, and CPS staffed by trained social workers. They might lose their children. Why would they ask for help if that is the risk?? They wouldn't and that's a lie. That simple. That a few have lost their children is NOT a trend. It's just a lie. Mostly when they do it is by neglect connected to incapacity from substance abuse. And even then 20 to 30% are placed with relatives while the family get's their act together if they can. The yahoos here claim that the "services" are punitive, when they are rehab and child development and parenting education, yet most of the yahoos exhibit that THEY THEMSELVES badly need those kinds of services. I'm not saying there is not a need for these social workers in our society - I am saying that there is a need for controls. Name them. Then finance them. As half our family income goes in taxes, That's what happens in a socialist country when you have a large income. Frankly I'm all for it. The extremely wealthy in our country are undertaxed, and often pay NO taxes. I would say that I am financing them. YOU DID NOT NAME THEM as I asked. You are attempting to build an argument based on opinion. I'm happy to share opinions, but then that ends pretty quickly. I want specifics because specifics are what is needed to correct failings in the system, if they actually exist. And you have not pointed to budget items in comparison to other items that would suggest to me that an adequate proportion of budget going ot child welfare. Our case was the perfect example of what can go wrong. What went wrong? You had someone make an accusation. Was CPS to forget it because you are nice? That has been put forth as a claim in these ngs...."the wealthy people with clout are NOT investigated and that's why children are abused and neglected by such folks and get away with it." Baaaad CP They put us through 4 months of hell. You may know that. I cannot if you don't say what they subjected you to. My husbands career was seriously jeopardized because he needed to be returneed home for 'family problems'. Unlike other family crises? Like all families exprience from time to time? Deaths, jobs loss, natural catastrophe, illnesses? They made our family jump through a dozen hoops And those were? and we were submitted to any number of personal indignities. And those were? Hell, I've had the postal service picking in me since I use them a lot. The money and time I've had to invest in meeting their ever increasingly higher set "hoops" over the years would make a saint sob. And I get no settlement to ease my pain. You did yet you are still howling as though you are injured without compensation. Dreaded outcomes? Our family was almost destroyed over this. I don't doubt it. You seem near hysteria. As wealthy as you are you couldn't afford a hotshot attorney? I wonder what kinds of fool things your attorny did do? Yes, we did have a good attorney. Which is why we won a large settlement. Which is why our children were never taken. . Which is why our ordeal only lasted 4 months and we had the outcome we did. My concern, however, is for those families that DO NOT have those resources. How do they cope? How do they manage? My heart bleeds for them. So the answer is to cut back on investigations from allegations, be nice when investigating, leave the children with the alledged perps (as is often demanded in these ngs), and up the rate of child fatalities and injuries at the hands of family. Or you have another answer, possibly? Near hysteria? You have no idea! Of course not. But you do seem so. It's possible to get children back home in as little as four months WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY AS SIN FOR USING METH WHILE PREGNANT and similar problems. It's been done by someone in this ng, and he's done a good deal more. Well, certainly not in Canada. I don't doubt, given that his ability is as much a matter of tactical good sense as knowledge he's dug up with hard work, he could DO Canada just as well as he flattened NY CPS. And that was rather well, R R R R I suspect they still put on Depends before dealing with him anymore. 2 years later and we are still recovering. An investigation that failed to convict and you are still recovering? A case you won and you are still recovering? Of course. It's the accussation that kills the family. Did CPS put your name in the paper with the accusation? Are they to NOT tell you the allegation made about you? Are you aware that when a cop or any other investigator asks questions that they appear as accusations to the subject being questioned? Hell, I once had a storage building broken into and thousands of dollars of tools and machinery stolen, and when the cop came to respond to my complaint of the robbery....I FELT LIKE THE SUSPECT BEING INTERROGATED. Fortunately for me I used to teach interrogation ... we called it "interview" techiques so burst out laughing when he hit on one of my old ones...that I invented...."are you going to tell me." Even with all that, the words coming from a large man in uniform with a gun, got to me for a second. There is no way to do an investigation. without screwing it up badly, and tend to the feelings of the one being interrogated. Its the thought that someone COULD possibly think that you would ever do anything to harm your children. Yep, and to the investigator it is also the thought (they know you are under exactly that pressure) that you COULD be harming your children and they can't tell until they investigate, and sometimes a court decides. What would you have them do? That someone out there honestly believed that we would could abuse the children that we adore. I have read the reports and I have heard the same words and more exclaimed by parents that were molesting and selling their children for drugs....it's an old refrain, "Don't take my babies, I love them so." but of course they love their habit more. Having to turn open our lives to one and all. What? That IS criminal. The public got the full file on you? Because your CPS released it? To have people come into our home three times a week and assess our parenting. Yes, that IS difficult. It is a violation of one's most basic civil liberties Unless your constitution is considerably different than ours (and I've read yours so I know better) our "basic civil liberties" in an investigation and supervision were not violated. Your children's were protected. That is hard. Moreso for an innocent parent most likely. But it is NOT a violation of any such thing. It's a violation of your FEELINGS, not your rights. And YOUR feelings and YOUR right don't come before your children's. and it's a affront to the most sacred of all things in our society - the family unit. Oh, here we go again. No. The most sacred thing of all in society is LIFE. And that IS the concern of CPS, the child's life. It's the terror on the kids faces when the doorbell rings because they too, still feel the stress of the ordeal. I'm sure they do with your attitude. You did not have the courage to teach them the truth, but only spewed your feelings on them. How can you be so flippant and callous to a families feelings? I am not the least flippant. I am telling you flat out that "feelings" take second ranking to LIVES. Children's lives. How can YOU be so flippant about the thousands of children whose lives are saved by intervention? And the thousands that are NOT saved by it happening in time? It brought back to the surface every fear and feeling of shame I felt as a child. Of course. I'm not the least surprised nor minimizing it. I am just not focusing on YOUR distress, but on the risk to the children should you have been a family that WAS abusing and or neglecting. To be judged the same as my abusers? I beg your pardon. You told me that you won in court. An accusation, an investigation, are neither judgements of you. They are speculations to be cleared up. The judicial process did that. And those poor families you are sooooo concerned about? I've heard of poor families doing quite well in court with good coaching. The reason you hear of so few is that cases don't get to court unless the DA, our equivolent of the Crown Prosecutor, or whatever you call them, doesn let cases GET TO COURT unless all the ducks are in a row for proof of guilt and conviction. This fact alone lets the whiners pretend they are victims, like our own Whore and The Plant. When NOTHING at all happened to them. They simply get investigated. How does one ever recover from that? Well I recovered from live crises as severe or worse so I'll happily tell you. Some help, some of it from friends, some from paid experts in dealing with the issues, some from one's past experiences in recovering, and some by the passage of time. We are tough creatures. But more importantly, let me volunteer how NOT to recover. First you must do a lot of blaming. Then a lot of lying to yourself. Then some more blaming. Heap on the catastrophizing, like "how does one ever" and look for losers to hang out with. One can keep healing at bay for decades, even a lifetime doing that. Let me suggest some truth finding. Go to your local child welfare office. Ask for their data and information packets about the real nature and size of child abuse in your country. Dig out facts. You'll start to understand the issue better and give yourself a break. If you were an abused child I can assure you you are NOT alone, nor were you then, except you didn't know there were others. Thousands of others, hundreds each time you experienced abuse...hundreds of other children were abused similarly. When you start looking for facts instead of reinforcment of your helplessness and claim that it's all just a huge conspiracy against parents, you'll start healing...as in getting over it. Winning a settlement did nothing but vindicate our reputation. Ah, that IS the purpose of the legal system,...and YOU won a settlement, recovered your reputation and you are still recovering? See above. You miss the point. It isn't supposed to do more than that. The compensation is for what you claim is your pain NOW, and the trouble you are going to to get over it. The settlement is supposed to be to recover your pain and suffering, not to stop it. It's been paid for by the settlement because pain and suffering is real in cases where people are accused and investigated and turn out to be innocent...but that does NOT equate with CPS not doing its job correctly. We didn't need the money. We needed closure. Which you appear to be holding off nicely. One of the surest ways to stop closure is to pick at the scab and whine over the pain of the picking. But that doesn't make the feelings go away. Nope. You are really not on a path to recovery either, with what you've shared so far. You are drawing your own blood, and the little dancers here just looooove it. You are unaware that the pain you felt on accusation and investigation is OUT IN THE OPEN and was then. The pain here is subrosa, sneaky, slow, poisonous. The hyenas circle and nip you with little encouragements to join in their loserhood. You are relishing the chance to blame and to declare helplessness. Yet you have shown nothing, nothing at all, factually, just your "feelilngs." I'm okay with folks showing their feelings, but for healing doing that here is like blood in the water to sharks. They don't want you to heal, they want to cruise through the blood and drink deeply and wound you further. It's the KILLCPS modus operandi. Exactly what statutes and policies did the investigation break? Nothing? You don't want to heal. You want to wallow. It did nothing to help put our family back together. And that is precisely WHY settlements are won .... to compensate you for your work having to put your family back together. That was done with love and constant, extreme effort. Like I said. My fears are for those people that do not have that type of strength. I'll try to say this as kindly as possible. I don't believe you. You don't know me. Yep, but you seem to want to use my ignorance of you. Nor do I care about your opinion. That's obvious. But then why are you posting and replying to me? Said as kindly as possible. There is nothing quite so sad as the fake kindly declaration, when it's so obvious the intent isn't. Could you point us to some public sources that tell YOUR story. I'll be happy to apoligize if you are real. At this point I'm beginning to doubt the oh-so-conveniently-fitting-the-nonsense-claims-of-the-fools-in-this-ng story. I'm not THAT public, Kane. NOr do I need your validation. Sorry. I see, just a little public, just a little within the limits of eliciting sympathy but that's all. Okay, no problem. And of course you don't need my validation. I'm not asked to validate you. I'm asking you not to continue to con me and other readers by putting out the bathos and withholding the fact. Don't fret. It's very common here. You aren't the first. I don't 'blow hard' before I act. Do I hear the tinkle of a cash register and the ambitious grunts of yet another KILLCPS candidate for president and chair of a group collecting membership fees and contributions? You have a lot of competition. It's a popular gig these days. That makes no sense to me. But then I'm Canadian. Less competition then? You are writing very like a few KILL CPS organization heads were writing before they went into the business. I have seen too much in this life to ever act before I think. Were you thinking when you hired that nanny? No, of course not. You were doing your job as parent, but you made a mistake. I trusted the agency. That is why they were paid 2500 dollars. To NOT make mistakes. Yep. Sue'em into poverty. But don't use that as an excuse for CPS to NOT do their job as mandated. This applies to CPS investigations as well. They do their job, they make mistakes. And for those there needs to be restitution and reform of the system. Unfortunately and the thousands of instances where they do their job and are completly justified and correct in many and outcome, those guilty folks are also free to deny and to come trippin' in here to whine and look for loser company who will back their claims of being "done wrong." Is this not a support group for those very people? Yes. It is. Does "support" include a place where victims clump together so blood suckers won't have to work so hard to find them? You really must google on some of our regulars. I'd suggest The Plant for a start, then the alwas whining The Whore/Gigolo, then Dennis Deakin...he's a laugh a minute when it comes to helping families. There are others you'll met along the way. Should this not be the place for them? I would think alt.support.CPS workers would be the place for you? Since I'm not one, that wouldn't compute, and if there was such a place and I went there and they knew my history I'd not be very welcome. I've been known to speak to some workers just like I do to some yahoos here, and get a couple fired over the years. But there has to be a stop to all these mistakes. The damage is too great. How would YOU stop it? You have a cure? Does it include destroying CPS and building a new system with the same budget? Wanna guess who would be hired? No, it includes being vigalent. And helping other families who require help. Sounds great to me. Where do I sign up? And what's the membership "contribution." And are you fundy christian and have other agendas I don't agree with? And why YOU and not me, for ways to improve the system? Interestingly, your suggestion is what I already do. Are YOU doing it? How have you helped families? What have you found in your vigilence so far? I've asked for facts and you seem short on them. Mostly you've spewed the platitudes of the lying I've seen on websites. Half truths, outlandish claims based on partial revelations, nonsense. Where would the trained people come from...why from the ranks of the people fired upon destruction of CPS. Unless you think you have a better sources better trained and more dedicated that will work in the sewers of dysfunctional family life, with the dangerous criminal drug folks, and put up with interfamily soap opera and carry a caseload of 40 to 50 rountinly. Tell us what you will do to "reform" CPS. I love it when people say they need dedicated workers who won't care about income so much as families and children, so over course THEIR children get to go barefoot proving how much they care for families. MmmmmmmHHHmmmmmmmmm.. Sure. People who have the general interests of family at heart. I believe I asked you who and where much more specifically than that. Not a description of their sainthood. So, what people, class, profession, do you think these paragons will come from and how shall you test them? Does your neighborhood overflow with budding Mother Teresa's (who by the way was revealed as a death watcher and NOT a healer) Not people who get off on the high of having this much power. I've met very few child welfare workers that got off on a high or though they had "this much power." I've met a lot of ignorant folks that think they do though. In fact I've heard workers say explicitly it is one of the more onerous aspects of their job, that they are FORCED by it, to make decisions that are so powerful in affect. I hear that's one of the reasons for supervisors, review committees, and the courts. Not the cynics. I don't don't know about that. There is a resident cynic here, a bobb person, that was recently entertaining the idea of taking up my challenge to fix the system personally. He would be more or less on your side, I think. Not the paranoid. The day to day work of the child welfare worker makes them very clear on what is and isn't a danger. They are right more often than wrong. That seems to negate any concerns I have about paranoia. In fact I note a great deal of paranoia by parents, when the vast major...huge majority,....SUPER majority...will never come into contact with CPS in their lifetime. They would be better served to keep their auto brakes in good condition, as something to worry about. The compassionate. Well, this will send up a howl, I'm sure, but on visits to court, and to CPS offices, and the places where they go for lunch, I don't think I've ever met a group of people with more compassion than child welfare workers. Even what you complain about is of concern of them...who to better care for the families they must investigate...it's a theme over lunch. And the subject of consultations and special issue committees I've both attended and read the minutes of. The consensus and I agree, is that they would have to sacrifice children to MORE delicate in handling the "feelings" of parents, and in the end, the child is their primary client...his or her situation draws the larger measure of compassion. I think lawyers should work for half pay, doctors at a third, and those lazy postal people should just volunteer for the healty outdoor life when they are not at a bench all day laughing it up with their cronies and doing those fun skate mailcarting 5 or 6 hundred pounds around the cold or too hot warehouses. I could use some employees that would work for me out of dedication to my business. Got any? In your own case, vis a vis, reform: What was CPS supposed to do, take your word for your innocence? Ignore an allegation of abuse by a trained child care person...that ARE under mandate to report in most states, and obviously she ID'd herself. That's hot stuff and very hard to schelp on by without notice. Perhaps put in perspective that she was fired after 4 days. And how would that lead them to assume she was 100% likely to be lying? With her a mandate reporter and presumably a history of professional child care? Check into her past. Running background checks on accusers while the children wait is NOT what CPS is mandated to do. She hadn't lasted more than 3 months at any nanny job she had. That's nice. And it still does NOT let CPS off the hood to investigate you with considerably haste. If a stranger walked in off the street and made an allegation of serious enough abuse and neglect they are required by policy and statute to investigate the allegation, not the accuser. If you think it should be otherwise, change the law. The agency neglected to tell us this. Not a CPS issue and they could not know this. They refused to talk to any of her previous employers. It wouldn't have mattered if she were a convicted ax murderer. The presence of an allegation from any source requires investigation of the allegation. And YOU don't really KNOW if they did or didn't talk to them. And it's NOT their job. If you are accused by someone until such time as you bring charges against them there is NO mechanism for the state to intervene. You used the law. It worked for you. But your cannot negate another law in your favor on your say so. They could, at the very least, just LISTENED to us. They never did. No, you are now way over the edge. If you told them they listened to you. What you really mean is that they didn't take the action YOU required of them when you told them...or as far as you know they didn't. Not guilt on the part of the nanny, other than proving she was lying, is any concern to CPS. She could be an ax murderer. The accusation is the thing, not the character of the accuser. Otherwise when some altogether nasty piece of work saw and reported a WITNESSED ABUSE OF A CHILD CPS would have to just ignore it based on the character of the accuser, NOT THE FACTS of an investigation. That cannot be ignored, unless you wish CPS to ignore all allegations unless they are already proven...to NEVER investigate. And if they do, to simply believe the nice people that say they are inncent. That is why I let them in that day. Investigate I said. We have nothing to hide. I never knew what lengths they would go to show that an upper middle class white family might have problems too. Now you know. But you haven't told us specifically what they did. You have told us the reaction you had, and that is about it. They came in. They investigated. They went to "lengths" to show you might have problems. All you have really done is describe a thorough investigation. Did you attorney not USE the investigation itself to prove you innocent? And to sue successfully in your behalf? If she didn't she was dunce and you were very lucky. So run your story out for us. It's sure to be interesting. And please, something other than your word for supporting evidence of the truth of the story. We've had a rash of socks here lately trying to con the group. I have no care whether you believe me or not. You seem to be posting a lot to me for not caring. This is my therapy, not yours. So far it appears your are still in the whiney stage. I would have thought you got past that using some of your wealth, by now. Did your therapist recommend you do an online support group? Does your therapist know that there are folks in it that are NOT in recovery, but are in fact here to bleed you? And dance in your blood and congratulate your for your injury rather than your recovery? The "woe is me" was so thick I considered composting it. And suddenly when asked for some details to work with to understand the story, they just kind of wafted away on the scent rising from the pile. Ask any question you like about the case. Perhaps it might serve as an education. I already did, and you didn't respond. You won't find many here using the facts for therapy though. What you will find is catastrophizing elevation of your situation to enrage you. They love it. And you will be steered by a pimp to web sites that will capitolize further on YOUR pain and attempt to recovery, all the while cranking your rage higher. And in the end you'll have nothing but your rage. You then are theirs. Please stay. Please give us something truthful. It is so extremely rare around here we miss it. Only a half dozen posters that tell the truth, on both sides of the issue, and about 15 from the KILLCPS crowd that seems to have captured your heart who do nothing but lie. They can't even key in a subject field that's moderatly accurate. The only people that have captured my heart are my family. I'm an old army officer - I wrote the book on cynical. Then you would have to disqualify yourself on the criteria to be a child welfare worker. Have at it. Tell CPS how it should be running its business...and drop the platitudes about more kindly and more carefully and with less mistakes. I'm not asking WHAT at this point, I'm asking HOW to do WHAT you claim they don't. Anybody, just join right in. Though I need a half hour to set a new handle to my manure fork. It's been a rough year so far on your friendly ascps newsgroup. Keep in mind that news media usually friendly to the muckrackers is starting to admit, as is the famous Dr. Geller, that FUNDING is and has been horrible. You might also have heard of the problems with substance abuse, that seems to be a part of almost every one that comes here and fesses up honestly. So line those innocent families up that you know, send them around. If they are still in trouble, even if guilty, they could get some much needed help here. I got an idea. Go work for CPS for a few months. I hear they are becoming increasingly short handed and increasing burdened trying to catch up. I have worked in the social services field. In detention centres for at risk youth. I know the story. And what was your job? I knew for years this wave of CPS failures was coming. In 1990 I bearded a state senator in the halls of capitol and asked what she was prepared to do about the 85 caseload average in her state, and the shellshocked workers that were being introduced to the wonderful world of homebrew meth. and that fallout for children. I think she actually did get things going a bit, caseloads dropped to 60 average per worker. Wheee for the workers, I think they celebrated on one break and then had to get back to their desks, their calls to go out and enter pigstys with camera ready, and guessing if someone would stick a knife in them this time. And then my favorite worker that had a call on a lovely family, professionals, a realtor and a registered nurse, and they were so nice, just so nice, and she backed down just a hair when they said two times on different visits their dear daughter was sleeping....could she come back later, and later the baby was found in a dumpster, dead..and the parents were in needle park kind sorta glazed over. Cases like that are one in a mililion and you know it. Nope. 38% of infanticides are by mothers in this country. I doubt CA is different by much. Over 80% are by both parents. 30% of the remaining 17% by caregivers are kin, relatives. And as for druggies killing their kids...where ever did you get the idea it was on in a million? I guess CA is drug and alcohol free then? And more deaths of children are from neglect than direct violent abuse. If you can't connect the dots to drug abuse, just like that couple, you aren't as experienced as you claim. Not if you worked with adjudicated youth. You apparently didn't read their files. I did. 1980 through 85 specifically with juvenile populations. A few were in lockup for murder....of their own child or their girl friend's child by someone else. You'd be amazed how good people can look when they are in the right phase of their high. Straight as you and I, well I can only speak to how I look. But stone cold killers. It was hard to find an unbroken bone in the three year olds body, below the neckline. The really knew how to discipline. Kane I think you have some seriously repressed issues. Care to chat sometime? What seems to be missing, in that statement, and most of your posts, is fact. What would those repressed issues be? That I don't like children killed and injured? Thank you, I'm not repressing. You'll notice I put them right out there. Cheers, Sheila Cheery bye, Kane Begging your indulgence, Kane, I will reply to your thoughts tomorrow. Thanks. Have a nice night. Cheers, Sheila |
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| Most families *at risk* w CPS' assessment tools broad, vague
Kane wrote:
Yes, that is the point of metaphor. Is that what you call it, Commander McBrag? |
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