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Another homework responsibility question



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 17th 05, 11:24 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Default Another homework responsibility question

"beeswing" wrote:

I wrote:

In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to
discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have
to offer.


To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that
she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger
carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated,
she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on
the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one.

Again...any ideas? Thanks.


I would suggest that your daughter DOES need organizational skills as
she hasn't got her homework from the previous week done, even if she
wants to do well and doesn't need the bigger carrot.

So I would do two things.

1) I would sit down with your daughter and ask her to break up the
homework tasks that she has into manageable units. That will deal
with the organizational skills. Have her do it though, or at least
have her buy in.

2) If I could, I would ask the teacher to tell you/her what the
grading parameters are for the various long term projects, especially
what the minimum acceptable for passing is, and what is 'extra
credit'. (For instance if I gave along term project where writing
was involved, I had definite levels that a student had to reach for
each grade - say a minimum of 10 paragraphs for a C)

I would explain to her about your 'dear in the headlights' g
daughter and say that the carrot she needs to have less the pressure.
(In my ds's senior year of HS I called each teacher individually and
said 'what does he have to do to pass', and then stood over him until
he did that.)

Then after you've got some idea of the minimums and maximums, then sit
down again with your daughter, and have her re-schedule so that she
gets at least the minimum done every day. After she's done that, she
can work on getting a better grade for the various things.


grandma Rosalie

  #12  
Old November 17th 05, 11:55 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Default Another homework responsibility question


Rosalie B. wrote:


I would suggest that your daughter DOES need organizational skills as
she hasn't got her homework from the previous week done, even if she
wants to do well and doesn't need the bigger carrot.

So I would do two things.

1) I would sit down with your daughter and ask her to break up the
homework tasks that she has into manageable units. That will deal
with the organizational skills. Have her do it though, or at least
have her buy in.


Yes, the teacher already asked us to do that and we will. I didn't mean
to imply that my daughter doesn't need organizational help at all, only
that at this point, organizational help alone is not going to be enough
to pull her out of the morass she's in. If she's too frozen to complete
one writing assignment over three days, even though she's spending
hours over it, us sitting down with her to tell her she has to complete
one to two assignments a night will only increase the pressure.

2) If I could, I would ask the teacher to tell you/her what the
grading parameters are for the various long term projects, especially
what the minimum acceptable for passing is, and what is 'extra
credit'. (For instance if I gave along term project where writing
was involved, I had definite levels that a student had to reach for
each grade - say a minimum of 10 paragraphs for a C)


My husband is planning on asking the teacher just that when we meet
with her. Unfortunately, we're going to get resistance from our
perfectionist daughter when we suggest doing less than optimal work
just to get the assignment completed. (I've tried that in the past.) On
the other hand, less-than-optimal work still scores more than a zero,
which is what she's currently getting on these assignments. Maybe the
teacher can help us with getting our daughter to accept this.

I would explain to her about your 'dear in the headlights' g
daughter and say that the carrot she needs to have less the pressure.
(In my ds's senior year of HS I called each teacher individually and
said 'what does he have to do to pass', and then stood over him until
he did that.)

Then after you've got some idea of the minimums and maximums, then sit
down again with your daughter, and have her re-schedule so that she
gets at least the minimum done every day. After she's done that, she
can work on getting a better grade for the various things.


It's a great idea. I just don't know how easily my daughter can adjust
to thinking on that level. Part of the reason she's so frozen is that
she gets paralytic over not knowing how to do things "right." This is
particularly a problem with her writing and always has been. If she can
just get unfrozen and *START*, she usually does quite well.

You've got some great thoughts on this. I think these are all things we
need to discuss with her teacher. Thanks for sharing.

beeswing

  #13  
Old November 18th 05, 12:42 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Default Another homework responsibility question

In article .com, beeswing
says...



My daughter really wants to succeed at her new school, but the pressure
to want to do so is making things even worse for her. She told me she
was waking up at 3 a.m. (I assume from the stress.) Has anyone here had
a kid who had to negotiate through this kind of transition? How did you
(and your kid) handle it? Do you have any suggestions of alternatives I
might want to discuss or approaches I might take with the teacher? They
really *do* have a lot of homework at this school, even if my kid
wasn't currently frozen like a dear in the headlights at this point.


Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but
procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized
by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it
would be a disaster.

Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well.
Many adults don't plan a week's work well!

The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x
amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from
consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter
it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying
to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt'
worked.

So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work
up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her.
Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her,
for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft
outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word
sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday:
language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition
that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on.

With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to
procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life.

My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record
homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still
intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time.
I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two
un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me
that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder
what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it?
Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but
still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you
do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague.
So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for
him to assure he'd get certain things done.

Banty

  #14  
Old November 18th 05, 12:42 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question


"beeswing" wrote in message
oups.com...
I wrote:

In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to
discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have
to offer.


To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that
she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger
carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated,
she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on
the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one.

Again...any ideas? Thanks.


I'm not sure this answers the question, but, it sounds like she got a bit
behind because you didn' t do her scheduling for her for a week. So if
she's only half a week behind, and you want to take over scheduling and
organization for her again, you can get her caught up next week over the
holiday. (I'm assuming you live in the US, otherwise you'll need to catch
up some on each weekend.) I can't remember how old this child is, is there
a "homework club" at her school. The junior high's around her have a
homework club that helps kids learn to organize. It's mandatory for those
not doing well in school, and open to anyone else that would like some help
learning to organize their homework time. There are also private tutoring
organization that teach this type of stuff.

If you are saying she is organized, and it's just too much work you need to
get her out of that program into one she can succeed at.

  #15  
Old November 18th 05, 12:43 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question

beeswing wrote:
I wrote:


In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to
discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have
to offer.



To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that
she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger
carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated,
she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on
the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one.

Again...any ideas? Thanks.



Better organizational skills should allow your daughter to
break up her work into less intimidating chunks, however.
I don't think the teacher missed the boat -- maybe you're
just sailing parallel paths rather than paths intersecting
at a common point.

I think a point to discuss with the teacher is how to teach
your daughter to divide tasks (maybe repeatedly) until each
individual task that comprises the whole is not so overwhelming.

If this were my DD, I might also ask her if the things she
was spending most of the time on (in DD's case, this would be,
oh, the cover page of the report) are vital to finishing. In
other words, finish the most important stuff first, then the
slightly less important, etc. That way if you run out of time,
you can still hand something in.

Scott DD 12 and DS 9

  #16  
Old November 18th 05, 03:43 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question


Scott wrote:

Better organizational skills should allow your daughter to
break up her work into less intimidating chunks, however.
I don't think the teacher missed the boat -- maybe you're
just sailing parallel paths rather than paths intersecting
at a common point.


She missed the boat when she said that she thought we could get my
daughter to motivate herself by using rewards such as computer time,
TV, and ice cream. My daughter wants to do well -- that's her main
motivation. The main thing that froze her on the assignment she's
working on is writer's block. Carrots won't solve that. I don't think.
And neither will added pressure.

I think a point to discuss with the teacher is how to teach
your daughter to divide tasks (maybe repeatedly) until each
individual task that comprises the whole is not so overwhelming.


To her credit, the teacher sent us an email that gave us some ideas
very similar to what you wrote above.

If this were my DD, I might also ask her if the things she
was spending most of the time on (in DD's case, this would be,
oh, the cover page of the report) are vital to finishing. In
other words, finish the most important stuff first, then the
slightly less important, etc. That way if you run out of time,
you can still hand something in.


What if the hard part is getting words on the page? Would you recommend
setting that assignment aside and working on something else? The Kid
has been stuck on writing the same thing for three days
now...precluding getting any other homework done.

On the other hand, apparently this written assignment is the one the
teacher wants first. According to my kid. Then again, what The Kid says
needs to be taken with a huge grain of sand. On yet another hand...it
*was* due last week.

Scott DD 12 and DS 9


Thanks, Scott. I appreciate your insight. Have you ever dealt w/the
writer's block issue with your kids? How did you handle it?

beeswing

  #17  
Old November 18th 05, 04:04 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
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Default Another homework responsibility question


Cathy Kearns wrote:

I'm not sure this answers the question, but, it sounds like she got a bit
behind because you didn' t do her scheduling for her for a week.


I've never done her scheduling for her. What I did stop was badgering
her to death to do her homework at a certain time because all it was
doing was creating animosity.

So if
she's only half a week behind, and you want to take over scheduling and
organization for her again, you can get her caught up next week over the
holiday. (I'm assuming you live in the US, otherwise you'll need to catch
up some on each weekend.)


The teacher seemed to think we could get it all done by Wednesday
before the holiday. I don't think that's practicable.

I can't remember how old this child is, is there
a "homework club" at her school.


She's in 5th grade, but it's the first year of her middle school.

The junior high's around her have a
homework club that helps kids learn to organize. It's mandatory for those
not doing well in school, and open to anyone else that would like some help
learning to organize their homework time. There are also private tutoring
organization that teach this type of stuff.


There's no private tutoring, but there is homework club. We found out
The Kid had been telling the teachers she was done w/her homework and
reading instead. Now that we know about it, we've put a kibosh on that,
so she should be doing homework during homework club (and was today).
So that will help.

If you are saying she is organized, and it's just too much work you need to
get her out of that program into one she can succeed at.


Nope, she needs to learn to organize, too. But she also needs to learn
not to freak out at challenge. She's not in a *program* -- she just
started middle school and these are the expectations that this school
has. I think my kid will adjust, but will need some support in the
process.

Thanks for writing!

beeswing

  #18  
Old November 18th 05, 04:06 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question

Banty wrote:

Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but
procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized
by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it
would be a disaster.


Have you ever done the "I'll put it off to the last minute, so then no
one (especially myself) can expect me to do it perfectly...I can only
expect myself to do as well as I can do in that amount of time" trick?
(No, that's not my daughter...that's me, really....though I've seen
that same tendency in her as well. Genetics? )

Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well.
Many adults don't plan a week's work well!


I think the school is just starting to get the kids trained. To its
credit, it does give the kids calendars to map out their
assignments...I found out today...so my kid should prolly start filling
that out. If she'd do it (and we should prolly help her map it out), I
can see how it might help. We're all learning the new school's system
here, parents and kid.

The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x
amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from
consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter
it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying
to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt'
worked.

So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work
up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her.
Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her,
for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft
outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word
sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday:
language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition
that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on.


I agree. We should start using the scheduling calendar to schedule, now
that I know it exists...or at least try it. I was mostly pushing her,
up till now, to "spend an hour a night and/or complete an assignment" a
night. Now she's far enough behind that that's not looking like it will
be enough. Perhaps if she can look ahead and see how it all lays out
she'll be a little less anxious.

With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to
procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life.


Yeah, I can relate. Left to my own devices, I'm a procrastinator. But
I'm not much of one at work.

One comment though. It's not all procrastination. Some of it is genuine
"I'm scared I'm not going to succeed so I'm freezing."

My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record
homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still
intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time.
I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two
un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me
that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder
what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it?
Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but
still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you
do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague.
So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for
him to assure he'd get certain things done.

Yeah, even here. My daughter has two teachers, one who acts as her
advisor and one who doesn't. The advisor one wrote us back and issued
rather ridged marching orders -- and suggested all of this stuff, last
weeks, this weeks, could be done by next Wednesday. The nonadvisor one
said focus on this weeks work and have catch up on the older work as
she can, maybe over Thanksgiving. And my daughter claimed her advisor
teacher told her to do one assignment a night and not to overwork
(which doesn't mesh with what she told us and I take with a grain of
salt the size of Mt. Everest). And on top of that -- I'm not quite sure
what responsibility my husband and I have regarding finishing the
homework beyond making time and resources available and being available
to help.

No matter what, more structure would help, and we'll work on it. And
we'll meet with the teachers, I hope next Wednesday, to figure out
what's *really* expected and what's to be done about the situation --
and in what priority.

Thanks, Banty. It sounds like you know where we're coming from, and
that in it's own way is very comforting.

beeswing

  #19  
Old November 18th 05, 06:13 AM posted to misc.kids.moderated
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question

"beeswing" wrote in message
ups.com...

What if the hard part is getting words on the page?


Then I'd recommend the technique of free writing.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

  #20  
Old November 18th 05, 12:12 PM posted to misc.kids.moderated
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Another homework responsibility question

In article .com, beeswing
says...

Banty wrote:

Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but
procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized
by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it
would be a disaster.


Have you ever done the "I'll put it off to the last minute, so then no
one (especially myself) can expect me to do it perfectly...I can only
expect myself to do as well as I can do in that amount of time" trick?
(No, that's not my daughter...that's me, really....though I've seen
that same tendency in her as well. Genetics? )


I've had that suggested, but it's really not it. It *kills* me not to do
something the way I think is best; I'm not looking for an out.

It's more of a matter of having trouble starting something, and some attention
problems. So I have to do things like, leave a simple part of a complex task
for the next day, so the next day I can more easily start on that, then have
momentum for further in the task. I work better without breaks - someone else is
refreshed after a coffee break; after the same break I'm struggling with getting
it together and started again and a half hour after the break is over I'm still
not on task. I get derailed. So I put together big blocks of time for work.

For long tasks, I write out a schedule to reinforce the need to pace the task.

I got into some terrible fixes due to procrastination in the last couple of
years in high school. I had to work on this and come up with compensations.


Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well.
Many adults don't plan a week's work well!


I think the school is just starting to get the kids trained. To its
credit, it does give the kids calendars to map out their
assignments...I found out today...so my kid should prolly start filling
that out. If she'd do it (and we should prolly help her map it out), I
can see how it might help. We're all learning the new school's system
here, parents and kid.


I notice just about everyone responded with how she needs to schedule or pace
the work, and divide it into smaller tasks.


The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x
amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from
consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter
it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying
to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt'
worked.

So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work
up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her.
Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her,
for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft
outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word
sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday:
language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition
that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on.


I agree. We should start using the scheduling calendar to schedule, now
that I know it exists...or at least try it. I was mostly pushing her,
up till now, to "spend an hour a night and/or complete an assignment" a
night. Now she's far enough behind that that's not looking like it will
be enough. Perhaps if she can look ahead and see how it all lays out
she'll be a little less anxious.


Yes. Seeing a plan gives a feeling of control, not being overwhelmed. Practice
getting started and following through on the plans reinforce the success of the
planning.


With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to
procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life.


Yeah, I can relate. Left to my own devices, I'm a procrastinator. But
I'm not much of one at work.

One comment though. It's not all procrastination. Some of it is genuine
"I'm scared I'm not going to succeed so I'm freezing."


Sometimes it helps to do *some* work on a challenging or daunting task, like
jotting down some thoughts or a quick outline. Then moving to something
simpler, even if it's not due the next day, just to get the momentum going and
have some sense of satisfaction. Then to back to the more daunting task.

If she's been working on only one assignment for three days, she's lost momentum
and has no feeling of satisfaction, and worries as the deadline looms bigger and
bigger. It snowballs. So she needs to bust that up.

As for writing, when I am inspired and/or really interested in the topic, I can
write a draft beginning to end in one go and after a couple of revisions it's a
good product. If I'm *not* inspired, or I'm stressed or tired, then I need to
do something mechanical to get the process going or I'm stuck, too. This is
where I'll try to lay out an outline, and if failing that, write down some
points, arrange them, develop them into an outline, and fill in from there.
It's not as much fun, but it gets the task going and give me a path, and allows
me to put one foot in front of the other until the thing is written.

A psychological trick I do on myself if I'm bogged down or having trouble
getting things started is to put a recent sucessful completed project on my
desk, even read it again. Just to get myself into the groove and remind myself
that I can proceed successfully with the current task.


My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record
homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still
intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time.
I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two
un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me
that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder
what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it?
Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but
still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you
do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague.
So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for
him to assure he'd get certain things done.

Yeah, even here. My daughter has two teachers, one who acts as her
advisor and one who doesn't. The advisor one wrote us back and issued
rather ridged marching orders -- and suggested all of this stuff, last
weeks, this weeks, could be done by next Wednesday. The nonadvisor one
said focus on this weeks work and have catch up on the older work as
she can, maybe over Thanksgiving. And my daughter claimed her advisor
teacher told her to do one assignment a night and not to overwork
(which doesn't mesh with what she told us and I take with a grain of
salt the size of Mt. Everest). And on top of that -- I'm not quite sure
what responsibility my husband and I have regarding finishing the
homework beyond making time and resources available and being available
to help.


From here, I'd recommend jumping back on track week to week, and do the catch up

over Thanksgiving. Sucks to impact a holiday like that, but sucks worse to be
playing catch up over weeks.

Good luck however you decide to proceed.

Banty

 




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