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#11
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:30:40 -0700, aps wrote:
In article , Larry McMahan wrote: LSU Grad of '89 writes: : I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and : ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby : is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch : everything - right ? 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for specific indications. It is grossly overused. No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear what you mean by "specific indications." Our ultrasound involved a bunch of specific measurements, which we enthusiastically asked a lot of questions about. I don't mistrust medical science - I am an ex-nurse, I respect medics, I respect what medicine, and surgery, can do for people. However, pregnancy in the main is not a medical or surgical problem. Why would I need a doctor when I'm not ill? I have had consultant care during this pregnancy because of previous problems, but it is the midwives I rely on, and it is midwives who will, DV, be there when I have my baby, not a doctor. out of the studies VERY STRONGLY is that the rate of complicaitons for planned hospital births is much higher than for planned home births. Mainly because pregnancies with identified risks for complications are planned for hospital birth. Not necessarily. Women with no risks go to hospital to have a baby and, if they don't conform to the expected timetable, find themselves in the "cascade of interventions". And think about hospital-acquired infections - those are a complication. [snip] Unfortunately you have a view of midwives that is straight out of the middle ages. What you do not know is how modern and professional they are, and how much the obstetric process has actually increased risks by the inappropriate overuse of technology. I suggest that you do some objective reading on the subject before becoming subject to such unfounded fears. I agree that many fears about home natural midwife birth are unfounded and irrational, but there's plenty of axe grinding on both side of the issue. And I doubt that a woman who has faith mainly in one side would do very well in the opposite. Knowing a lot about both approaches is probably the best strategy The trouble is, the original poster didn't appear to know a lot about both approaches. -- EDD 1/11/03 32 weeks |
#12
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
LSU Grad of '89 wrote: OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. Sounds fine to me. I didn't have mine at home, but when my 2nd was born I had a midwife rather than an OB, and it was *so* much better - like night and day. If I were to have a 3rd I'd strongly consider a home birth. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? What does this have to do with whether you use a midwife or not? Midwives can order tests. Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" In all likelihood, your epidural will be no problem. But you might be one of the unlucky ones. However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why...I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend works where I do and has excellent insurance... But when I hear of somebody *planning ahead of time* for an epidural, I'm concerned that she isn't doing the best she could for her baby or herself. I didn't have an epidural with either of my hospital births, and I've never regretted it. Also - I don't know where you're located, but midwives here in GA can prescribe a lot more than prenatal vitamins (not that you'd need a prescription - just go to the grocery store or health food store and buy some.) Clisby |
#13
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
aps wrote: No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear what you mean by "specific indications." Our ultrasound involved a bunch of specific measurements, which we enthusiastically asked a lot of questions about. Specific indications: presence or absence or partial development of brain, four chambered heart, organs functional and present, abdominal contents enclosed in the abdomen, spinal cord development internally, identifying number of fetuses present, placental function, cord integrity. Measurements of the fetus and fluid can be subjective and not entirely helpful. Sure, it's neat to the look at your growing baby. I had home births AND ultrasounds and they were not perfect, especially the last one that was light by 2lbs, short on size, and the gender. Kris |
#14
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
LSU Grad of '89 wrote:
OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. This is common practice in the Netherlands and there is still no study that shows a higher risk for pre- or post-natal mortality or birth defects. If the woman is going through a normal pregancy, measuring the heartbeat of the foetus and it's growth by fundal height is more than enough to assure a healthy baby. A midwife is perfectly capable of monitoring the baby's and the mother's health. (S)He can take bloodpressure and measure a heartbeat as well as any OB. Yes, you can find defects with u/s and tests. But what do we gain from that? The risk of being mis-diagnozed and going through a very stressful time. Or vice versa. You start to hear numbers like 'the risk is only 1 in 1000'. But what if you are the 1000-th? There is NEVER a warranty that all is well, no matter how much you test. The current medical technology is both a blessing and a curse. Especially when it is used to ward the medical professional from any possible mistakes, as is common in the US, instead of using it as a preventive measure. -- -- I mommy to DS (14m) guardian of DH EDD 05-17-2004 War doesn't decide who's right - only who's left |
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
aps writes:
: 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine : ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for : specific indications. It is grossly overused. : No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a : distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear : what you mean by "specific indications." I'll spell it out in detail. When an ultrasound is used to determine whether a specific suspected conditions exists (for example, ectopic pregnancy, or to see if the fetus is still viable) then it provides a positive benefit. However, if an ultrasound is done just because it has been so many weeks and we want to look at the baby and see if all is well, then no benefit is realized. : out of the studies VERY STRONGLY is that the rate of complicaitons for : planned hospital births is much higher than for planned home births. : Mainly because pregnancies with identified risks for complications are : planned for hospital birth. This is absolutely wrong, and show a total misunderstanding for the way that medical research is conducted. When comparing home versus hospital (or any two situations) subjects are chosen from both populations *with exactly the same risk profile*! This is a process called controlling for confounding variables, and is done to prevent just the kind of bias you note above. : I don't think lsugo89 said that nobody should do natural birth. luugo89 made a number of statements that she worried about her friend who chose midwifery over obstetrics, and made other explicit and implicit statements in her post that she thought midwife assisted homebirth was less safe than OB assisted hospital birth, when, in fact, the research shows just the opposite. : I think either of these routes would give you the objective information to : be able to speak soundly on this subject. : See, it just sounds like she'd have to voice your opinion on order to : "speak soundly." I think what she would have to do to "speak soundly" is study the medical research literature on the subject, both pro and con, and not just spout off her uninformed opinion while ignoring the objective evidence. : 1. This issue has been discussed on this newsgroup many times. If you take : a women who has experience both a medicated birth with an epidural, and an : unmedicated birth, which do you think that woman will say that she preferred. : At least 95% of the mothers on mkp who have done both say they would go : natural in an instant. I am sure you will get not a few replies to this : Actually, our labor nurse said exactly the opposite--she had 2 : unmedicated and 1 with an epidural, and she said the epidural was the : better experience. Shall we take a poll? :-) See one reply in this thread already from a nurse who has voted for unmedicated. :-) : 2. Numerous studies have shown that the epidural anesthesia passes from the : mother to the babies bloodstream, and that babies who are born to moms with : epidurals have lower apgar scores, are more morbid, have more difficulty : breastfeeding, and in general do not respond as quickly or well. : My wife had an early epidural and the did a couple bolus' during labor. : Our daughter scored 9.9 apgar and breastfed like a champ. I don't : disagree that statistically epidurals are more likely to produce those : problems, but that's not the same as what you're stating. Excuse me? How are they different? : Unfortunately you have a view of midwives that is straight out of the middle : ages. What you do not know is how modern and professional they are, and : how much the obstetric process has actually increased risks by the : inappropriate : overuse of technology. I suggest that you do some objective reading on the : subject before becoming subject to such unfounded fears. : I agree that many fears about home natural midwife birth are unfounded : and irrational, but there's plenty of axe grinding on both side of the : issue. And I doubt that a woman who has faith mainly in one side would : do very well in the opposite. Knowing a lot about both approaches is : probably the best strategy Hmm. I think this is exactly what I was arguing. See also the other responses in this thread. Larry Rice Grad 69, 73, 75. BA, MS, PhD :-) |
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
aps wrote:
In article , Larry McMahan wrote: 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for specific indications. It is grossly overused. No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear what you mean by "specific indications." Our ultrasound involved a bunch of specific measurements, which we enthusiastically asked a lot of questions about. Meaning, I think, "We have reason to believe this baby has that problem. Let's use ultrasound to confirm or deny that the problem exists." All of the very specific measurements they take at an ultrasound can be very interesting and seeing the babe can be reasuring, but this kind of information and assurance doesn't change the outcome of the pregnancy. FWIW, I've had 4 ultrasounds (I'm currently 29 weeks), at 8 weeks (dating), 20 weeks (routine, but couldn't see the heart), 24 weeks (saw the heart, but diagnosed a two-vessel umbillical cord, and 28 weeks (to confirm the cord thing and check baby's growth rate because of same; baby is fine, even somewhat bigger than expected). From that, you could argue that it was a darn good thing we had those ultrasounds, because use deep, heavy, voice here] now we know about a potential problem with the baby, [end deep, heavy voice] since the two-vessel cord is associated with some birth defects. However, the association between the two-vessel cord and birth defects for babies who have no other risk factors is very low. Most babies with this kind of cord have no problems whatsoever. From what I can find, if there are problems and the problems are major, the fetus would have been non-viable. If the problems are minor, they are the kind of things that would be caught in routine post-natal well-baby checks. So, what have we gotten for all those ultrasounds? something to worry about, more doctor visits, and more visits to come since this moves my pregnancy closer to "high risk" just out of medical paranoia, more insurance paperwork and overall increased medical costs [for us, for our insurance carrier, and for society in general]. Frankly, I've appreciated the assurance, but I'm not sure it's worth it. As DH pointed out, had we not had the first ultrasound at all, we'd still be in pretty much the same position knowledge-wise, with less hassle. Pretty ironic. JMO, Valerie |
#17
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
LSU Grad of '89 wrote:
OK, this really bothered me so I will share it in hopes that I am just too used to the "modern" way. A woman at work is having hr first child, she's ~5months and has had no visits to an OB or Doctor. She is completely relying on a midwife. She will have a natural birth at home with the midwife and husband in attendance. I just can't identify with it. I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? Why not? Midwives are well trained and perfectly capable of providing care for a normal pregnancy and birth-- and of identifying any conditions that require a specialist and referring out for them. And the proof of that is in the pudding. Homebirth midwives in general have as good or *better* safety stats than OBs (and *much* lower rates of malpractice suits). Your friend's baby is absolutely no more likely to suffer as a result of your friend's choice to birth at home than your baby was as a result of your choice to birth in hospital (which does increase certain kinds of risks). Hope this isn't a flame starter, I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. Vicki is right - no one hands you a medal after labor and says "you get a gold medal for having the most pain !" I'm afraid that is a bit of a flame starter. Do you really think that women choose to forego drugs in labor just so they can crow about it?! Give them a little credit for being somewhat brighter than the average tree stump. Women who choose that route generally do so because they believe it is better, healthier, and lower risk to do so--and while I am firmly behind the right of women to choose pharmacological pain relief in labor if they so desire, there is ample evidence that making that choice *DOES* increase some risks, if only slightly. I know you don't mean to suggest it, but your comment above really is quite insulting in that it implies that women who choose midwifery care and homebirth don't care about their babies as much as you care about yours. If one were to go around slinging those sorts of accusations, they might just as easily condemn your choices as increasing the risks for your baby just so that you wouldn't have to go through a little pain--which would be equally unfair and erroneous. However, I completely understand that each person has a right to their own method, and just because I cannot identify with this, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. I can't help worrying for her but I don't know why...I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance and access (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) My friend works where I do and has excellent insurance... Some midwives can write prescriptions and some can't (depends on the kind of midwife), but why would that even matter? You can get perfectly good non-prescription prenatal vitamins that have everything the prescription ones do. And if a midwife can't write prescriptions for something that is actually needed, then she refers the woman to a specialist who can do so. As for whether she's doing the best for her baby, if you were to look at the medical evidence, you would likely find that your friend's midwife was practicing MORE in line with the best medical evidence available than your doctor was (speaking in broad generalities). Current obstetrical practice in the US has several areas that run contrary to the best evidence based medicine as reported by leading institutions like the Cochrane Group. The midwifery model of care tends to more closely parallel the recommendations of evidence based medicine. Furthermore, while one can debate the merits of some of the testing (e.g., routine ultrasound has been shown to provide NO better outcomes than no routine ultrasound--it simply provides an opportunity for mid-trimester termination for obvious anomalies, and it misses many anomalies at that), if a woman who is seeing a midwife wants any of the usual tests (ultrasound, AFP/triple screen, amnio, etc.) the midwife can either order them or will refer the woman to someone who can order them. I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. We are very much socially conditioned to feel that way in the US, and there are a great many people who have a vested interest in us continuing to operate under that understanding. But if you really look at the evidence, your friend's choices are perfectly safe and sensible as long as she's having a normal pregnancy. And if her midwives are worth their salt, if she shows any evidence of NOT having a normal, healthy pregnancy she will consult with an OB and will change plans as necessary to accommodate the situation. Best wishes, Ericka |
#18
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
aps wrote:
In article , Larry McMahan wrote: 1. Did you know that there is no benefit to be shown from routine ultrasound. Ultrasound has only proven beneficial when looking for specific indications. It is grossly overused. No argument with that, but for those of us who haven't cultivated a distrust in medical science, it can be reassuring. And it's not clear what you mean by "specific indications." Our ultrasound involved a bunch of specific measurements, which we enthusiastically asked a lot of questions about. What he means is that if you just do an ultrasound because one is 20 weeks along and you do an ultrasound on every woman at 20 weeks (i.e., you do routine 20 week u/s), you do not improve outcomes. Doing those routine u/s doesn't make for healthier babies. Sometimes it provides some information, but that information is not generally actionable in a way that changes outcomes for mom and baby. Of the things that are important to discover, there are generally symptoms that will cause a NON-routine u/s to be done. For instance, a placenta previa is obviously important to diagose, but it will generally show up as bleeding in the third trimester. This bleeding will cause them to do an u/s and they will find the previa and schedule a c-section as needed. On the other hand, with a 20 week routine u/s, they see lots of low-lying placentas and worry women sick about it when the majority of them will not be any issue at term. The routine u/s *does* give an opportunity to terminate the pregnancy if obvious anomalies are found, but if anomalies are found there's generally little to do about it. This is certainly a benefit, but let's call a spade a spade--it isn't about making the baby or the birth healthier or safer. It's about providing an opportunity for decision making. In addition, as you point out, it can make women feel reassured. However, there are two issues involved with that which merit some thought. First, are we so sure that u/s poses no possible long term health risks that we're willing to do them en masse to provide reassurance but not actionable information? The ACOG isn't that sure, which is why it continues to not recommend routine u/s as the standard of care even though many doctors do it anyway. Second, when we rely on external things like u/s to provide reassurance during pregnancy, we can cause *more* anxiety! There's the anxiety that comes from spurious results (like the early "dianosis" of placenta previa). There's also the fact that the u/s only gives limited reassurance that what could be seen was okay at a particular moment in time. There's a tendency for this sort of information to simply crank up the level of reassurance needed so that one wants more and more and more information in order to feel okay about the progress of the pregnancy. Some researchers in other countries which haven't become so technologically oriented during pregnancy have found that the introduction of things like routine ultrasound results in *increased* anxiety overall during pregnancy compared with anxiety prior to the introduction of that technology. To some extent we can't put that genie back in the bottle, but it's a dynamic worth thinking about. out of the studies VERY STRONGLY is that the rate of complicaitons for planned hospital births is much higher than for planned home births. Mainly because pregnancies with identified risks for complications are planned for hospital birth. No, most of these studies compare births resulting only from normal pregnancies. Thus, the fact that hospitals *also* serve a high risk population is not a factor in that comparison. 1. This issue has been discussed on this newsgroup many times. If you take a women who has experience both a medicated birth with an epidural, and an unmedicated birth, which do you think that woman will say that she preferred. At least 95% of the mothers on mkp who have done both say they would go natural in an instant. I am sure you will get not a few replies to this Actually, our labor nurse said exactly the opposite--she had 2 unmedicated and 1 with an epidural, and she said the epidural was the better experience. But he is not inaccurate in reporting what women on this forum have said previously. Best wishes, Ericka |
#19
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Midwives & Home birth vs. an OB & hospital ?
LSU Grad of '89 wrote:
I LIKE knowing I've done tests and ultrasounds and stuff to make sure - with modern technology - that my baby is progressing fine. That's fine for you. First, not everyone wants those things. "Tests" and ultrasounds don't ensure you a healthy baby (and can miss a frighteningly high proportion of unhealthy babies), nor do they make complications less likely. Second, many midwives (including mine, who was a DEM as opposed to a CNM) can order whatever tests and ultrasounds the mother desires. I just don't believe that a midwife can catch everything - right ? Doctors can't catch everything, either. There are no guarantees when it comes to kids, regardless of how you choose to give birth. I just cannot identify with the natural at home no doctors thing. No need for you to. I can't identify with the medicated at the hospital with whatever doc happens to be in rotation coming in at the last minute thing. Give me an epidural, no problem...Mother hood is demanding enough without being a hero when you don't need to. For me, not having an epidural wasn't about being a hero. I wouldn't have minded one when I was at 2cm (because I was *tired*), but you don't get an epidural at 2cm. (Well, you can at the hospital closest to me, but then you wind up with a pitocin drip and continuous monitoring and all sorts of other stuff that has nothing to do with heroism, either.) When I was at 4cm (the time you'd normally get an epidural, I didn't need one. Allyson asked me at one point during transition and again while i was pushing if it hurt a lot. And I said it didn't hurt at all, and that I definitely wanted to do this again. I just have this nagging feeling that if it were me, I'd be concerned that I wasn't doing the best I could do for my baby. Then you probably shouldn't have a homebirth. I felt I was doing the very best thing I could do for my baby. I guess I can't imagine going through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing a doctor when one has insurance I paid out of pocket for my midwifery care, and would do so again, even if a hospital birth were completely free. (can mid wives write prescriptions for prenatal tablets ?) CNMs can. But the only advantage to prescription prenatals is that you can get a 30 or 90 day supply for $5 or $10 if your insurance has prescription coverage. I bought mine over the counter - $15 for 270 tablets, identical to a common prescription prenatal. Phoebe |
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