looking for other perspectives (very long)

Paula writes:

Dr Nancy's Sweetie shared the following
perspective and opinions:

It was definitely a "deliberate, intentional" attempt by him to mislead
you. Maybe it doesn't match some dictionary definition of "lie" -- but
so what? He was intentionally deceptive just to get you into bed.

Suppose he has sex with a woman and picks up an STD, but doesn't bother
to tell you. That wouldn't be a "deliberate, intentional lie", by your
definition. But his lie of omission would leave you just as infected,
wouldn't it?

Maybe he will never lie to you by "presenting as fact something known to
be false" -- but he has already deceived you, and will certainly do so
again. He has deceived his wife, and will do so again -- whether that
wife is you or not.


You wrote that "with communication comes honesty", which is the real
point at issue. There are lots of ways to be dishonest besides just
"present as fact something known to be false". He has already been
dishonest to you. He will be again.

Here's a story you might want to think about:

A little boy was walking down a path and he came across a elderly
rattlesnake. He asked the boy, "Please little boy, can you take me
to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time
before I die." The boy answered "No Mr. Rattlesnake. If I pick you
up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattlesnake said, "I promise
I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." The
little boy thought about it and finally picked up that rattlesnake
and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the
mountain.

They watched the sunset together. Then the rattlesnake asked, "Can I
go home now? I am tired, and I am old." The little boy again
picked up the rattlesnake, and held it carefully on his way back
down the mountain.

Just as they got back to the bottom, the snake bit the boy. The boy
screamed and asked "Why did you do that?" The rattlesnake replied
"You knew what I was when you picked me up."


I've always heard this as "The frog and the scorpion" ... so you feel
that people never change, or that he won't/can't?

Ah, there is the rub.

Yes, people do change; generally through painful experience. He is
putting his wife through a painful experience (she may change). He
seems to be putting you through a painful experience (you may change).
He may be putting his children through a painful experience (this will
certainly affect them).

But it seems like he himself is not going through an especially
painful experience. His wife is sticking with him, and so far, so are
you. He may change - if his wife left him, and you refused to
continue to be involved in a romantic relationship with him, that
could well change him. But if he stays with his wife, and she and you
continue to allow him to string you along, he is _very_ unlikely to
change.

"Paula" wrote in message
...
dragonlady shared the following
perspective and opinions:


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

As stated, I have no idea how our relationship would be if it were
real, meaning everyday life, that's one reason why I have never asked
him to leave, to be with me.

People change, not always, but most people grow and learn from the
things in their lives. I can see that it pains him to hurt her ...
and to hurt me.

I know what I want to believe, that he wouldn't do it again, but I
cannot say what the future holds for any of us.

2 - The model you are giving your daughter is that adultery is OK if you
are "in love". Think hard about the morals you want your daughter to
adopt -- she will NOT learn from what you say, she will learn from your
behavior.

I know. I started (what has been a slow process) of ending the
relationship 6 months ago. Each go round (me saying it's over, him
saying that he loves me and can't not tell me, me getting drawn back
into the hope for love and a whole relationship with him), we get
closer and closer to the goal.

I have set a deadline for myself for this to be resolved one way or
another by the time she is 2. He either must accept a co-parent only
relationship, leave his marriage (which I will never push him to do),
or leave our lives (which I will push him to do, if necessary).

3 - What will your daughter's relationship with her half-siblings be
like once they realize that SHE is the cause of their parent's divorce?
(And even if that isn't completely true, they will believe it IS true --
you will be the REALLY evil step mother.)

I hadn't really considered that. I would hope that over time they
will realize that SHE is not the cause of their parent's divorce, that
their parent's problems are just that - their parent's problems - and
that those problems were exacerbated by a choice that their father
made.

snip

My sister did *exactly* as you have. But, this is how their situation turned
out...

The man stayed with his wife, causing my sister a living hell for about 8
years before leaving his wife. His kids from the marraige were in high
school when he finally left his wife for my sister and their child.

His first kids *hated* my sister - there is no reasoning when your whole
world is torn apart and 'that woman' is to cause - no reasoning whatsoever -
Daddy is great but 'that woman'... you get it.

My sis & he are still married now & have 3 children. It's now been 20 years
since they first began seeing each other. My sister has learned over the
years that men (anyone) don't ever change. Our core morals just ARE. Once
willing to consider fun outside the marriage, always willing.

And, his first kids still *hate* that woman, my sister. And they resent the
hell out of their first born, too. These girls are now in their 30s!! Are
having their own kids (his grandkids) and will send greeting cards (one
lives in another state) to 'Grandpa' and only Grandpa. Even though, typical
man, he expects my sis to remember all their birthdays, buy the presents for
them & for Christmas, etc.

Stand firm on those 2-year-old rules because even then, it's gonna be tough
on you forever.

Mary

"Paula" wrote in message
...
Dr Nancy's Sweetie shared the following
perspective and opinions:

It was definitely a "deliberate, intentional" attempt by him to mislead
you. Maybe it doesn't match some dictionary definition of "lie" -- but
so what? He was intentionally deceptive just to get you into bed.

Suppose he has sex with a woman and picks up an STD, but doesn't bother
to tell you. That wouldn't be a "deliberate, intentional lie", by your
definition. But his lie of omission would leave you just as infected,
wouldn't it?

Maybe he will never lie to you by "presenting as fact something known to
be false" -- but he has already deceived you, and will certainly do so
again. He has deceived his wife, and will do so again -- whether that
wife is you or not.


You wrote that "with communication comes honesty", which is the real
point at issue. There are lots of ways to be dishonest besides just
"present as fact something known to be false". He has already been
dishonest to you. He will be again.

Here's a story you might want to think about:

A little boy was walking down a path and he came across a elderly
rattlesnake. He asked the boy, "Please little boy, can you take me
to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time
before I die." The boy answered "No Mr. Rattlesnake. If I pick you
up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattlesnake said, "I promise
I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." The
little boy thought about it and finally picked up that rattlesnake
and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the
mountain.

They watched the sunset together. Then the rattlesnake asked, "Can I
go home now? I am tired, and I am old." The little boy again
picked up the rattlesnake, and held it carefully on his way back
down the mountain.

Just as they got back to the bottom, the snake bit the boy. The boy
screamed and asked "Why did you do that?" The rattlesnake replied
"You knew what I was when you picked me up."


I've always heard this as "The frog and the scorpion" ... so you feel
that people never change, or that he won't/can't?

snip

Our deepest morals are formed at a very young age and are so fundamental to
who we are. Change is easy on a surface part of us, but this is a deep moral
issue. Change really doesn't happen without major, complete upheaval.

I just see heartbreak for you, your daughter (!) and his family.

Co-parenting would by far be your best bet. If you have to suffer, at least
its contained to only you and not *everyone* else.

"Mary" wrote in message
...

"Paula" wrote in message
...
dragonlady shared the following
perspective and opinions:


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

As stated, I have no idea how our relationship would be if it were
real, meaning everyday life, that's one reason why I have never asked
him to leave, to be with me.

People change, not always, but most people grow and learn from the
things in their lives. I can see that it pains him to hurt her ...
and to hurt me.

I know what I want to believe, that he wouldn't do it again, but I
cannot say what the future holds for any of us.

2 - The model you are giving your daughter is that adultery is OK if
you
are "in love". Think hard about the morals you want your daughter to
adopt -- she will NOT learn from what you say, she will learn from your
behavior.

I know. I started (what has been a slow process) of ending the
relationship 6 months ago. Each go round (me saying it's over, him
saying that he loves me and can't not tell me, me getting drawn back
into the hope for love and a whole relationship with him), we get
closer and closer to the goal.

I have set a deadline for myself for this to be resolved one way or
another by the time she is 2. He either must accept a co-parent only
relationship, leave his marriage (which I will never push him to do),
or leave our lives (which I will push him to do, if necessary).

3 - What will your daughter's relationship with her half-siblings be
like once they realize that SHE is the cause of their parent's divorce?
(And even if that isn't completely true, they will believe it IS
true --
you will be the REALLY evil step mother.)

I hadn't really considered that. I would hope that over time they
will realize that SHE is not the cause of their parent's divorce, that
their parent's problems are just that - their parent's problems - and
that those problems were exacerbated by a choice that their father
made.

snip

My sister did *exactly* as you have. But, this is how their situation
turned
out...

The man stayed with his wife, causing my sister a living hell for about 8
years before leaving his wife. His kids from the marraige were in high
school when he finally left his wife for my sister and their child.

His first kids *hated* my sister - there is no reasoning when your whole
world is torn apart and 'that woman' is to cause - no reasoning
whatsoever -
Daddy is great but 'that woman'... you get it.

My sis & he are still married now & have 3 children. It's now been 20
years
since they first began seeing each other. My sister has learned over the
years that men (anyone) don't ever change. Our core morals just ARE. Once
willing to consider fun outside the marriage, always willing.

And, his first kids still *hate* that woman, my sister. And they resent
the
hell out of their first born, too. These girls are now in their 30s!! Are
having their own kids (his grandkids) and will send greeting cards (one
lives in another state) to 'Grandpa' and only Grandpa. Even though,
typical
man, he expects my sis to remember all their birthdays, buy the presents
for
them & for Christmas, etc.

Stand firm on those 2-year-old rules because even then, it's gonna be
tough
on you forever.

Mary



By the way, sorry guys, for the 'typical men' stuff in my post. I have a bum
for a husband and it's wearing on me.

Paula wrote:
sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



...snip...

The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.


Alright, I see what you're saying now.

While I agree that a lie of ommission is still a lie, it is not what I
was referring to as a 'deliberate, intentional lie' (which would be
actually telling me something as fact that one knows not to be true).
Hair splitting, maybe ... but to me the world is hardly ever black and
white, always shades of grey.

It was certainly a deliberate and intentional lie, because the effect of
withholding the information was that you believed he was single. If a
man invites you to spend the night, or even to date, then the assumption
is that he is single, and his not saying so was a deliberate lie. He
certainly knew that you wouldn't have even taken the trip with him, let
alone slept with him, if he had told you he was married from the start.


I never said 'at least he hasn't lied' ... he has lied to her and most
likely to me too (although I have no example or proof).

You already have proof. You simply refuse to believe it was a lie.
When he invited you out, he allowed you to believe he was single.



I'm sorry that our difference of opinion with respect to what we
consider a "deliberate, intentional lie" strikes you as me refusing to
believe ... the only thing that I refuse to believe is that your
definition is any more correct than mine. It's really a matter of
opinion.


Sorry, but I don't agree.


And to answer the question: If he had told me during conversation one
that he was married, I don't think it would have progressed the way it
did. I wouldn't have spent so much time talking with him. So the
question would be moot.

Exactly. That's why he lied. He knew the relationship would go nowhere
if he told the truth.


BTW: I re-added the cross-post to ASM because I don't know which group
people read, and I don't want to repeat myself.

oops sorry. You may need to add it back again.


I will apologize ahead of time if I misunderstand this comment and the
removal was unintentional, but sarcasm really is not productive toward
or conducive to open, honest communication.


I was saying you may need to add the other newsgroup back in, since my
responses aren't automatically set to reply to other newsgroups. I
cannot imagine where you read sarcasm.

"Auntie Em" Auntie wrote in
:

Really? Who is raising your children for 8-10 hours a day
while you are off earning a living? Do you really think
that they are receiving the care, love, and nurturing that
they need?

probably the same people that would be taking care of them 8-
10 hours a day if she was married & both she and her partner
worked (as is far more common than a stay-at-home parent these
days).
this arguement condemns *every* working couple with kids and
is not only highly unfair, it's wrong.
lee

Paula wrote:
Dr Nancy's Sweetie shared the following
perspective and opinions:


It was definitely a "deliberate, intentional" attempt by him to mislead
you. Maybe it doesn't match some dictionary definition of "lie" -- but
so what? He was intentionally deceptive just to get you into bed.

Suppose he has sex with a woman and picks up an STD, but doesn't bother
to tell you. That wouldn't be a "deliberate, intentional lie", by your
definition. But his lie of omission would leave you just as infected,
wouldn't it?

Maybe he will never lie to you by "presenting as fact something known to
be false" -- but he has already deceived you, and will certainly do so
again. He has deceived his wife, and will do so again -- whether that
wife is you or not.


You wrote that "with communication comes honesty", which is the real
point at issue. There are lots of ways to be dishonest besides just
"present as fact something known to be false". He has already been
dishonest to you. He will be again.

Here's a story you might want to think about:

A little boy was walking down a path and he came across a elderly
rattlesnake. He asked the boy, "Please little boy, can you take me
to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time
before I die." The boy answered "No Mr. Rattlesnake. If I pick you
up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattlesnake said, "I promise
I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." The
little boy thought about it and finally picked up that rattlesnake
and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the
mountain.

They watched the sunset together. Then the rattlesnake asked, "Can I
go home now? I am tired, and I am old." The little boy again
picked up the rattlesnake, and held it carefully on his way back
down the mountain.

Just as they got back to the bottom, the snake bit the boy. The boy
screamed and asked "Why did you do that?" The rattlesnake replied
"You knew what I was when you picked me up."



I've always heard this as "The frog and the scorpion" ... so you feel
that people never change, or that he won't/can't?

And before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I'm saying he will/can
for me, I am not. Just asking for clarification.

Oy. Ay yay yay. Perhaps Auntie Em was right.


If you want what's best for your daughter, don't pick up a snake.



So is your point that I should never be in any relationship other than
a co-parenting relationship with him? Or that he should not be
involved in her life at all?

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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Paula wrote:
Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

If you believe it is important for the father to be involved, yet you
chose to have a child with a man whose primary commitment was
elsewhere, that was _very_ unhealthy behavior on your part.


Ultimately, yes, I chose to have child with a man whose primary
commitment was elsewhere.

But, please remember that I honestly did not think that I _could get_
pregnant based on some pretty strong evidence (ref original post).


Well, that clearly isn't true. Perhaps it is merely a little lie of
omission. Let's fill in the part you omitted above.

In your first post, you said (and I quote):
"We talked about it and decided that if a child was meant to be
concieved, it would be."

You were planning to have a child with a man whose primary commitment
was elsewhere.

People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

In article ,
Ignoramus10600 wrote:

In article , sue wrote:
People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

Abortion is also an option that is available to everyone.

i

Physically, legally, yes.

Emotionally -- no.

For some people, it is simply not an option.

Adoption is also an option.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Paula shared the following perspective
and opinions:

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

If you believe it is important for the father to be involved, yet you
chose to have a child with a man whose primary commitment was
elsewhere, that was _very_ unhealthy behavior on your part.

Ultimately, yes, I chose to have child with a man whose primary
commitment was elsewhere.

But, please remember that I honestly did not think that I _could get_
pregnant based on some pretty strong evidence (ref original post).
Other things that I chose to do was keep, try to protect, and do the
best I can for the blessing that was given to me.

to which Doug Anderson replied:
: Actually, your OP included very weak evidence that you couldn't get
: pregnant.

And exactly what is your personal experience and expertise in the area
of infertility to consider 5+ years and cycles of artificial
insemination with no resulting pregnancy "weak evidence"? Maybe I
also should add that I have a history of severe endometriosis and am a
DES daughter. Both of which are recognized contributors to
infertility.

and sue also replied:
: Well, that clearly isn't true. Perhaps it is merely a little lie of
: omission. Let's fill in the part you omitted above.

What is "clearly ... true" is that I can get pregnant which has no
bearing on what I believed to be true based on the known facts at that
time.

: In your first post, you said (and I quote):
: "We talked about it and decided that if a child was meant to be
: concieved, it would be."
:
: You were planning to have a child with a man whose primary commitment
: was elsewhere.

I didn't plan it. I accepted it as a slim possibility. And yes, it
happened. My mistake.

: People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
: husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
: pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

But I wanted to have kids. I think that I've made that perfectly
clear.

Yes, it was my mistake to get pregnant by a married man. Now I have
to decide what is the best course to take for the future.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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