looking for other perspectives (very long)

Ignoramus10600 shared the
following perspective and opinions:

In article , Paula wrote:


I believe that you get from counseling what you are able to put into
it ... assuming that you choose a person who know his/her area of
expertise and in whom you can develop the trust necessary for true
investigation and evaluation of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

No, trust and effort are great, but still, very often counseling does
not help. Basing major life decisions on an expectation that counseling
can turn your messed up life around, is not wise.

I am not basing this decision on the expectation that "counseling can
turn" my "messed up life around". I am trying to base this decision
on what's best for my daughter, his older children, his wife, me and
him ... in that order of priority.

I do not have the expectation that counseling will turn my life
around, but I do have the belief that I am unlikely to be able to
achieve that goal without help/counseling (or it will take much longer
and lead to more mistakes) .

And that may be what's necessary. But with some more work on myself
it also may be that I'll find the right (kind of) person and teach her
what it is to have a healthy relationship.

Sounds like a lot of ifs and possibilities so on. Being a human,
obviously, at some point you will be sure that you found some real
winner, but remember, your track record is not great.

I do.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:05:21 GMT, Paula
wrote:

I am not basing this decision on the expectation that "counseling can
turn" my "messed up life around". I am trying to base this decision
on what's best for my daughter, his older children, his wife, me and
him ... in that order of priority.

I'm wondering if you should be worrying about his wife and their kids.
They're not your problem. His wife's a big girl now, and can take
care of herself and her children. Even his feelings are not your
problem, they're his problem.

Your concerns are for your daughter and yourself. Trying to think
"outside the box" can only distract you from that reality.

"sue" wrote in message ...
Wow. I honestly can't figure out what either of
you were thinking or your motives.

What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion where
people are trying to figure out what either of them was thinking or what
their motives were. I don't see how that is a factor in deciding what
is the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 8 months

On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:33:09 -0400, "Cheryl S."
wrote:

"sue" wrote in message ...
Wow. I honestly can't figure out what either of
you were thinking or your motives.

What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion where
people are trying to figure out what either of them was thinking or what
their motives were. I don't see how that is a factor in deciding what
is the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

ITA. Or trying to convince her that he deliberately lied to her.
It's all pretty moot at this point.
Paula, you've gotten some good advice in this thread.... try to
separate it from the ones who only wish to debate the trivial points.

Nan

Frank shared the following perspective and
opinions:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 19:44:28 GMT, Paula
wrote:

I have a long history of some pretty sad mistakes with respect to men
and love.

I submit that you have some issues with co-depdendency. If you can
address those issues within yourself, you may find that relationship
issues go some way to sorting themselves out.

Agreed


He admitted to you that he had problems at home, but didn't allude to
them. If he leaves his wife and moves in with you, what's he going to
do when such problems emerge again, as they do?


I never really pressed him for any information with respect to their
relationship. Over time I have gathered that he tried many times to
discuss his main disappointment - I'm not sure this is quite the right
word, but close - with their relationship and that she refused to
acknowledge it as a major problem.

For clarity, he wanted to spend more time with her, going out and
having fun together, rather than all time as family time. They would
talk, go out once, and a month later they'd be having the same
conversation again.

I know that there's more than just that, but that was the biggest, I
believe.


And I discovered that telling a woman I love her can be a tremendously
powerful tool for controlling things.

I know and think about this. I often wonder if (or more realistically
how many times) he told me things to keep getting what he wanted.


He says that he does not want to walk away from her, but he also says
that he can't love her and not love me ... that we are a package.

Sure he can. He just might not want to. But each time he's in bed
with you, it's hurting his wife. Each time he's in bed with her, it's
hurting you.


To be clear, my statement was about my daughter and myself. I've
never asked him to leave his wife.

They are currently seeing a counselor, and he's made the comment that
they, at least, need to stay together until their kids graduate from
high school.

Are you sure his wife knows his apparent level of commitment to their
marriage?

I'd wager that she doesn't. But I don't feel that it's my place to
inform her.

And again for clarity, he didn't tell me that they are seeing a
counselor. Not sure that this matters at all, but my asking him about
it may be a way in which to guage how truthful he can/will be with me.


Semantics aside, he may not have lied but he's not been, and is still
not being, entirely honest.


Agreed

You're faced with some tough choices, and someone somewhere is not
going to get what they really want.

Again, agreed
Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

Paula wrote:
snip
I am prepared to walk away from him (and take our child with me) if
I/we/he decide(s) that's what's best for everyone.

Well, first off, you're not going to get a 'what's best for everyone'
solution here. You're going to get a 'What's best for X and tolerable
for the rest of us' or a 'This is not best for anyone but it's the
least objectionable to the most people' sort of decision. And that's
probably what's keeping you indecisive.

Of course, my child's needs are first and foremost in my mind, but I
have to consider his family's needs as well.

Why? Look, believe me, I'm pretty familiar with this situation. While
the lyrics aren't the same, the tune is pretty darned familiar. And
even though I have been in a somewhat similar situation, I'm not
buying the 'I have to consider his family's needs as well.' (Note:
I am not advocating or endorsing wholesale disregard for him or his
wife or his other kids. That's NOT what I'm saying.) What I'm saying
is this: You are in no position to judge what is best for anyone but
yourself and your child. And, even when it comes to your child, you're
just going on your best guesstimate. When your daughter reaches an
age where she is able to make up her own mind, she might decide that
you really screwed it up. But that's neither here nor there. You do
what you think is the best and hope that the children agree that you
did the best you could.

I got a little off-track there. My point is that, IMO and IME,
and leaving out the obvious disclaimers about intentionally hurting
anyone else or causing unneeded pain/harm to others, you have to do
what is best for you and your child. Because from what you've written,
there's no one else that's doing that. The wife (quite understandably)
isn't doing what's best for your child. The husband (not so under-
standably, but pretty consistently nonetheless) isn't doing what's
best for your child. Who else is there except for you?

Their children are just as innocent as mine. And I believe that their
marriage comes before my relationship with him ...

When did this epiphany happen? I don't mean that as a snide comment,
but you're not particularly acting as if their marriage comes before
your relationship with him. This part:

The problem is this: He continues to tell me that he loves me. He
tells me that he daydreams about us being together to do all the
things that we both enjoy so much (and, no, it's not just sex).

You don't break off a relationship with a person by continuing to
listen to their protestions of love. You don't bolster a statement
like 'I believe their marriage comes before my relationship with
him...' with examples like above. Your words are pretty. Your actions
aren't backing them up though.

I am unable to let go of the hope of being together under these
circumstances and have told him so many times.

Well, sure. And, as difficult as it is for you to believe, that's
exactly why he keeps saying these things. He *doesn't* want you
to go away completely. There are different ways to interpret this.
None of them very flattering to him. And none of them in any way
helpful to resolving the situation. It's a way to keep the status
quo the status quo.

but also feel that, while we do not know
what an "everyday life" relationship is like, the love that he and I
feel for one another is real.

You know, there's love and then there's love. What you need to decide
is whether you want his kind of love. His kind of love leaves you and
your daughter as a lower priority for him. His actions, basically from
day one and up through what you posted, pretty apparently prove that
you two are not his first priority in any way, shape or form. Is that
what you want for yourself? For your daughter? At least as far as a
primary relationship is concerned.

What I think is that you've put the very bestest spin you can on
this man's actions and that's what has kept you dangling. I think
that if you were to start viewing him and his actions more clearly,
your decision as to what to do would be much clearer.

Tracey

In article , Cheryl S. says...

"sue" wrote in message ...
Wow. I honestly can't figure out what either of
you were thinking or your motives.

What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion where
people are trying to figure out what either of them was thinking or what
their motives were. I don't see how that is a factor in deciding what
is the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

It may a better path to make a good life as a single mother, and not go beating
bushes for step-fathers. At least for a good while.

Banty

Paula writes:

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

Talk to 100 women with fertility problems. A huge number of them get
pregnant anyway, often when they aren't trying. Haven't you known
couples who were convinced they were infertile, adopted, and then the
woman got pregnant?

I would submit that, of 100 women with medically verified and defined
fertility problems, the number of women eventually able to conceive
and carry a child to term would not be as huge as you imply.

But, no, I have no numbers to back that up. Do you?

The ob-gyn community seems to estimate that infertility affects 30-40%
of women with endometriosis. So no, it doesn't seem like a good
method of birth control.

But this is sort of beside the point. You are using the excuse that
you think your daughter should have a relationship with her father to
justify your relationship with her father.

I think you gave up the right to that particular excuse when you chose
to risk pregnancy with a man who was committed elsewhere.

Banty wrote:
In article , Cheryl S. says...
What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion
where people are trying to figure out what either of them was
thinking or what their motives were. I don't see how that is a
factor in deciding what
is the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

It may a better path to make a good life as a single mother, and
not go beating bushes for step-fathers. At least for a good while.

I was thinking the same thing. Statistically speaking, stepfathers are not
especially good for children and the OP seems to have a history of choosing
men rather badly. I don't think she should take the risk of exposing her
child to another potentially poor choice of a mate.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6)

Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy."
Me (later)--"You should feel flattered."

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

Frank wrote in m:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:05:21 GMT, Paula
wrote:

I am not basing this decision on the expectation that "counseling can
turn" my "messed up life around". I am trying to base this decision
on what's best for my daughter, his older children, his wife, me and
him ... in that order of priority.

I'm wondering if you should be worrying about his wife and their kids.
They're not your problem. His wife's a big girl now, and can take
care of herself and her children. Even his feelings are not your
problem, they're his problem.

Your concerns are for your daughter and yourself. Trying to think
"outside the box" can only distract you from that reality.

That was more or less my feeling when I read this.

The 'best' thing for his wife and children might be that Paula move
1000 miles away, but I very much doubt that would be much good to Paula.

Paula's priority should be what is 'good' for her and her child. Certainly,
when thinking about it she shouldn't demand a solution that was detrimental
for his wife and other children, but his wife will be looking out for them.
In fact almost *everyone* else will be looking out for them: her daughter
has basically her, possibly him: Paula herself has even fewer people looking
out for her.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three