Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

In article , Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
Kevin Karplus wrote:
The richer private colleges (Yale, Stanford,
....) try to put together financial aid packages that level the playing
field, but many of the public schools (which have gotten quite
expensive) have no almost no money for financial aid. So it may
actually end up being cheaper to go to a more expensive school!

Didn't the Ivies have to stop this practice because it broke the
anti-trust law?

What practice? They certainly have not stopped trying to put together
financial aid packages. There were some early-decision admission
practices that several schools agreed to drop because they were
anti-competitive, but I haven't heard anything about changes in
financial aid due to anti-trust law.

Hmm---googling "antitrust financial aid" brings up
http://www.nber.org/digest/nov00/w7754.html

What was stopped in 1991 was the colleges getting together to determine
students' financial need. The federal Court of Appeals found that the
colleges were NOT violating anti-trust law, but they did not resume
the practice anyway. The article I gave the URL for above summarizes
a study on the consequences of stopping the joint decisions about need.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/tt/1994/jan05/33561.html
discusses the legal decisions in a bit more detail and describes the
system that the Justice Department agreed to let replace the older
"overlap" system.

http://www.gop.gov/committeecentral/...asp?bill=hr768
discusses more recent legislative action to continue to allow colleges
to cooperate without violating antitrust law.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

In article ,
says...

It's also not too early to start thinking about playing the system. For
better or worse, the financial aid system is subject to a fair amount of
manipulation (e.g., decisions about one kind of saving, vs another, can
make a big difference---I don't think it's "dishonest" to take this into
account when planning your financial future). For that matter, if you
do choose to send your child to the private school, that will reduce
your savings when it's time for college, thus getting you more aid. So
it's not so clear that the private school costs very much over the long
term. The system really does penalize saving for college.

Unfortunately, the system doesn't only penalize saving for
college---it also penalizes living within one's means, saving for
retirement, owning one's own house, and in general any sort of fiscal
responsibility. That is inherent in any system that tries to set up
financial aid tied to "need".

Well, yes and no. Yes, in that if everything else (income, household
size, # of children in college, etc.) is equal, but my family has
$1,000,000 in investments and your family has no investments or savings,
you're going to get more need-based aid than I am. No, in that a
family's income still has a *way* bigger impact on how much need-based
aid they receive than does the total value of their assets -- so in the
situation above, I might end up having to pay more out of my own pocket
than you will, but OTOH, you're probably going to have a way harder time
coming up with the amount you *are* expected to pay than I will (because
all you'll have to draw on will be your current income, and financial
aid formulae tend to assume you need *way* less of that income to live
on than most people actually use). By the College Board's formula
(which most of the private colleges that have their own institutional
money to give out use), a family's typically expected to put, at most,
6% of their assets towards college costs each year. (The "at most" is
because not all assets get hit at this level, and some don't get hit at
all. For example, the College Board's form specifically tells you *not*
to list assets you've saved in 401(k), IRAs, or other retirement
accounts at all under your assets -- and many of the most selective,
richest schools (e.g., Princeton, Yale, Harvard) either aren't looking
at home equity as an asset at all any more *or* aren't looking at it for
middle-income families/ aren't looking at all of it.) Again, many
people do end up spending more than 6% of their assets per year on
college -- but this is mostly because they don't really have as much
discretionary income left over as the colleges expect. (In other words,
if they didn't have the assets to spend, they or their kids would end up
needing to borrow that much more, or go to school somewhere cheaper.)

I much prefer the European model, where
support for college is tied to "merit" defined rather
loosely---basically, anyone who can get into college is given full
support.

Once upon a time, this was what the U.S. public university and community
college system, together with Federal Pell Grants and Stafford Loans,
was supposed to do -- make college affordable (i.e., either free or at a
cost low enough that you could cover it with a small loan and/or part-
time job) for anyone who could get in. Unfortunately, the increase in
college costs coupled with the decline in federal & state support for
higher ed makes this less and less realistic.

-HB, higher ed geek.

Hillary Israeli writes:
Graduate programs in professional schools generally expect students to
pay their own way, or borrow large sums.

That wasn't my impression. My strong impression based on the comment from
the financial aid office to my mother, made on the telephone with me
standing in the office, that "you need to sell your house, is all," is
that graduate programs in professional schools, or at least at Penn,
expect the parents to ante up to pay the bills.

That seems just the same as what I said. Of course, most of the people
who are "paying their own way" through professional schools are doing so
with money from their parents, since most people can't earn this much
money by the age at which most people generally attend professional
schools. That's one reason why there are more lawyers, doctors, etc.,
from wealthy families. But it also happens (particularly in law
schools) that people may work for some time in a different career, and
then go to law school after they have accumulated some money to pay for
it.

My working was not "permitted" by the school (if they'd known, they
would have been very upset about it).

Well, I'm not surprised by that!

David desJardins

Kevin Karplus wrote in :

Unfortunately, the system doesn't only penalize saving for
college---it also penalizes living within one's means, saving for
retirement, owning one's own house, and in general any sort of fiscal
responsibility. That is inherent in any system that tries to set up
financial aid tied to "need". I much prefer the European model, where
support for college is tied to "merit" defined rather
loosely---basically, anyone who can get into college is given full
support.

The UK system is moving away from this model. When I went to University,
tuition was free to UK students, and I got a living expenses grant, based on
my parent's income - they were expected to contribute to my living expenses
too (although had I lived away from home for long enough, it would not have
been relivant).

Then they got rid of the grants, and brought in loans for living expenses:
the loans have a very low interest rate, and you don't need to pay them back
until your income reaches a certain level.

Then they brought in tuition fees, which are a bit more then £1000 UKP per
year, regardless of what institution you go to.

Now they are discussing allowing the Universities to set their own fees,
and changing when/how they get paid back.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

In ,
Banty wrote:

*I did apply for financial aid as something of a back-up for my first year at the
*institution where I obtained my doctorate, and in that process I was treated as
*something of a beggar (more than when I applied as an undergraduate). Because
*that's not the usual path for financing graduate school. I would put forth that
*the response your mother got was exactly because you and she, apparently, were
*trying to go the student aid route.

You say that as if we did something unusual or wrong. I suppose I haven't
explained things at all well.

I had no experience with financial aid before graduate school. My
undergrad was cheap as dirt and we had no problems paying for it. When I
went to the orientation sessions at Penn, one of the meetings was with the
financial aid officer, who handed out packets and said "fill these out to
see if you qualify." I did. I was then called into the office to get
informed that we didn't qualify, and the previously mentioned telephone
call occurred.

Maybe it's just a Penn problem. I heard similar stories from a number of
my now-colleagues.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Banty wrote:

*I did apply for financial aid as something of a back-up for my first year at the
*institution where I obtained my doctorate, and in that process I was treated as
*something of a beggar (more than when I applied as an undergraduate). Because
*that's not the usual path for financing graduate school. I would put forth that
*the response your mother got was exactly because you and she, apparently, were
*trying to go the student aid route.

You say that as if we did something unusual or wrong. I suppose I haven't
explained things at all well.

I had no experience with financial aid before graduate school. My
undergrad was cheap as dirt and we had no problems paying for it. When I
went to the orientation sessions at Penn, one of the meetings was with the
financial aid officer, who handed out packets and said "fill these out to
see if you qualify." I did. I was then called into the office to get
informed that we didn't qualify, and the previously mentioned telephone
call occurred.

Maybe it's just a Penn problem. I heard similar stories from a number of
my now-colleagues.

I think that's it, or else it is a vet school problem. Vet schools
are or have been more difficult to get into than medical school or law
school.

When my dd#1 thought that she might want to be a vet (this was after
the "All Things Bright and Beautiful" series of books), we tried to
figure out how she could do it. She had three options because
Maryland did not have their own vet school or an agreement with
another state for Maryland residents to attend the other state's vet
school at that time.

a) Go to a private (non-state) school such as Cornell (or I supposed
Penn although I didn't consider that)

b) Go and live in a state such as Colorado where there was a vet
school and establish residence there as an independent student. (I do
own some undeveloped land in Colorado and have relatives out there)

c) Go off-shore someplace like Grenada and go to vet school there.

We couldn't afford a, and she didn't like Colorado and didn't want to
go that far away to go to school (neither did dd#3, and dd#2 who did
go to school in Colorado didn't like it there which I just don't
understand). So she gave up on the idea, and became a math major.

In any case, because the out-of-state students were not admitted to
the state university vet schools, there was quite stringent processing
to determine if the student was truly independent or was just trying
to slip in under the radar and displace one of the in-state students.
It was much more rigorous than most graduate program qualification
inspection would have been.
..


grandma Rosalie

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*
*a) Go to a private (non-state) school such as Cornell (or I supposed
*Penn although I didn't consider that)

I guess that's what I did, although I was a PA state resident at the time
- Penn was still extremely expensive, $20K/yr. I couldn't afford it
either!!!

*We couldn't afford a, and she didn't like Colorado and didn't want to
*go that far away to go to school (neither did dd#3, and dd#2 who did
*go to school in Colorado didn't like it there which I just don't
*understand). So she gave up on the idea, and became a math major.

Incredible. Not something I feel I could have done.

*In any case, because the out-of-state students were not admitted to
*the state university vet schools, there was quite stringent processing
*to determine if the student was truly independent or was just trying

Well, out of state students have always been and still are admitted to the
in-state schools - they just are admitted at a lower rate than in-state
students are.

-h.
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:


*In any case, because the out-of-state students were not admitted to
*the state university vet schools, there was quite stringent processing
*to determine if the student was truly independent or was just trying

Well, out of state students have always been and still are admitted to the
in-state schools - they just are admitted at a lower rate than in-state
students are.

NO they aren't - or at least they weren't at that time admitted to vet
schools. This was in the late 70s. Out of state students were
***NOT*** admitted to state VET schools.

Since then, Maryland has formed an agreement with Virginia to allow
Maryland students to attend the VA state vet school, but at the time
it was not allowed.

Colorado state vet schools admitted certain other state's students
(western states like Wyoming for instance), but not someone from
Maryland.

In other cases of course out of state students are admitted and pay a
larger tuition. DD#3 went to Virginia Tech and paid out of state
tuition when she went there. She's actually the only child that we
paid any extensive tuition for.

DD#1 started out at Western Maryland (which in spite of the name is a
private college not related to the Maryland State system) and then got
married and went to St. Mary's College of Maryland (which in spite of
the name IS a state school) and finished up at the University of
Maryland College Park, and then went on and got her masters at Johns
Hopkins (also a private school). We didn't pay her tuition after she
got married. DD#2 went to the Air Force Academy, and DS is still in
and out of school.

grandma Rosalie

In article , Hillary Israeli says...

In ,
Banty wrote:

*I did apply for financial aid as something of a back-up for my first year at
the
*institution where I obtained my doctorate, and in that process I was treated as
*something of a beggar (more than when I applied as an undergraduate). Because
*that's not the usual path for financing graduate school. I would put forth that
*the response your mother got was exactly because you and she, apparently, were
*trying to go the student aid route.

You say that as if we did something unusual or wrong. I suppose I haven't
explained things at all well.

It's not so much that it's 'wrong' as it's not required for many more students
practically the way it is for undergraduate school. Because of the presence of
the option to borrow against professional earnings in the fairly near future.
After all, as you said the financial aid person who handed out the packets did
so just in case someone qualified. She wasn't exactly saying "here's your
opporunity". There's nothing 'wrong' in checking that out, but the stringent
requirements really should not have been a surprise. When I considered medical
school in the early '80s, the answer came down to the same pretty much (I was
independant by then, but had no assets) - the expectation was that I borrow
against my future earnings as a physician. Else I be sponsored by the military
or other government program in exchange for a period of service where they
choose. The vet students I knew at CSU had mostly taken out a lot of loans,
except for a few foreigns with national sponsorships.


I had no experience with financial aid before graduate school. My
undergrad was cheap as dirt and we had no problems paying for it.

Then perhaps you don't have the context - financial aid for undergraduate
students is also fairly strigent for most students.

When I
went to the orientation sessions at Penn, one of the meetings was with the
financial aid officer, who handed out packets and said "fill these out to
see if you qualify." I did. I was then called into the office to get
informed that we didn't qualify, and the previously mentioned telephone
call occurred.

Maybe it's just a Penn problem. I heard similar stories from a number of
my now-colleagues.

Maybe so. But then the comparison would be what aid was available to other vet
students nationwide.

Banty

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*Well, out of state students have always been and still are admitted to the
*in-state schools - they just are admitted at a lower rate than in-state
*students are.
*
*NO they aren't - or at least they weren't at that time admitted to vet
*schools. This was in the late 70s. Out of state students were
****NOT*** admitted to state VET schools.

Well, yes they were, is all I can say. I don't mean to be obnoxious about
it, but I can think of three colleagues off the top of my head - Dr F, who
went to Penn, but was actually from Michigan (and I know the U of PA is a
private university, but the vet school is state-funded, heavily
state-funded); Dr R, who went to UC Davis as a non-CA-resident, and was
actually from Illinois; and Dr M, who went to Cornell as a
non-NY-resident, and was actually from Maryland. These people are all in
the 45-50 yr age range.

Actually I know someone from Colorado State, too. I'll email him and see
what he has to say about it

-h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large