Would you spank in this situation?

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Greegor wrote:
Doan wrote to Kane
And now you want the child to have his
day in court too? So in your logic, the
police hit you with a baton is not assault
but a parent who spank their kids is?

That's Kane!

If a police officer hits me with a baton and he or she had no legal
right to do so, that's assault.

A parent who spank his/her kid has the legal right to do so, STUPID!

Doan

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Greegor wrote:
Doan wrote to Kane
And now you want the child to have his
day in court too? So in your logic, the
police hit you with a baton is not assault
but a parent who spank their kids is?
That's Kane!
If a police officer hits me with a baton and he or she had no legal
right to do so, that's assault.

A parent who spank his/her kid has the legal right to do so, STUPID!

I never claimed they didn't, Stupid.

I'm saying the law is wrong, stupid.

Just like slavery was wrong, just like oppression of women under color
of law was wrong, just like exploitation of children from lack of law
was wrong. Stupid.

Hence, the result that is inevitable in coming, just as it has elsewhere
in this world, a law making the hitting of children for any reason other
than self defense (just like the law that applies to adults...age 18 and
up) assault, stupid.

The law that gives the officer the right to hit with his or her baton is
no different than the right I have to strike a child to protect myself
from him or her.

But that should not give me a legal right to strike a child and NOT call
it assault because I want to "teach" him or her something. The cop can't
do it, and the parent should not be able to do it.


Doan

Keep trying monkeyboy. You are looking stupider by the post.

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Kane wrote
If a police officer hits me with a baton and he or she had no legal
right to do so, that's assault.

If I presented a threat to him, her, or others, he or she can chose to
use a baton on me, legally, to control and stop me. To effect arrest, as
it were.

That is the law.

attempt to divert snipped

With children there is no similar situation,

Golly that's damn convenient for you!
However, even CPS expects parents to be LAW in their home.
When it's convenient for CPS that is.

Kane wrote
generally, where the force of hitting would be needed to
stop a child, though I can see how it might be needed
in SOME circumstances, and should not be judged as assault.

Yes, some of us know about your belief it's OK to Taser kids!

Kane wrote
Spanking, on the other hand, is not an 'emergency' measure, as use of a
baton is. It's a deliberate act with intent to cause pain for "teaching."

Whereas cops don't act for that reason, no doubt! Haha!

Kane wrote
A police officer in a brutality case would surely lose if they were to
say, in court, "I used my baton to teach him not to do that again."

95% of the bad acts by cops are never litigated.
I estimated.

The hard data simply vanishes like the Meth in the evidence locker!
Not a trace!

Kane wrote
That IS assault, in all jurisdictions, Greg.

Even if it's not prosecuted?

Kane wrote
You may NOT teach someone by hitting them,
IF they are an adult, Greg.

And YET such cops DO exist! Amazing!

Myriad examples where adults are "taught"
in such ways or worse, come to mind.

Greg wrote about Kane
government as king, parents as perps.

Kane wrote
Nope. Government as agent of those that cannot
protect themselves. Abusive parent as perps.

The veritable all seeing eye of government?
Hardly the Oracle of Delphi!
Our government can barely operate ITSELF!
The "all seeing eye" is blind and stupid!

HYPOTHETICALLY OF COURSE!

Greg wrote
Children all with rights OVER their parents.

Kane wrote
Nope. You seem to have this either/or fixation, Greg.

What a COINCIDENCE that I point out how you
POLARIZE any opponents and twice now you
have tried this reversal of that observation.

Nice try!

Kane wrote
You and I can have conflicting rights, Greg, and
I presume you have no problem accepting that
and accepting that sometimes the court system
must be used to sort that out.

SOUNDS good. Waiting for the other shoe to drop!

Kane wrote
Why is it you cannot afford children that same right?

Ah! There it is!

If the GAL would just allow it!
But she's been telling LIES about what the child
has to say, and has the power (for now) to prevent
the child from actually expressing her own wishes
in court.

The GAL represents supposed "best interests"
of the child, but in reality she is a CPS sicophant.

HYPOTHETICALLY of course!

It won't be long now!

Greg wrote
"The Lord of the Flies" all over again!

Kane wrote
I see no appropriate analogy, unless I accept your
fallacious either/or reasoning, Greg.

Kane wrote
It's both.
Both the child and the parent have rights.
Sometimes they are in conflict.
Thus, CPS. Or criminal court.

Oh yes! I have been SO IMPRESSED with how
Parents Rights under the constitution have been
protected in Juvenile Court..

Refusal to correct PERJURY repeatedly over YEARS,
altered transcript, Judge tried to "unrecuse" herself,
prerequisite before TPR violated and hearing that
should never have taken place proved small
conspiracy. Judges making snotty apparently
spiteful comments as they are FORCED to
rule in our favor.

ALL HYPOTHETICAL MIND YOU!!!

Kane wrote
A child has a right to life, and to not be
assaulted. As yet, spanking has not been
seen for what it obviously and factually is.
To hit is to assault

Assault is a legal term. Spanking is not legally assault.

Kane wrote
unless you have circumstances you can
show warranted the hitting.
What support do you have for spanking as being warranted?

Best interests of the child.
Parents determine that, period.

Kane wrote
And please, don't give me the old history argument.
Historical evidence has been proven wrong in many
instances. Slavery, women's suffrage, etc.

Of course not, those are juvenile arguments,
pedantic, and stright out of some lame
high school debate society.
You've use both of them.

Kane wrote
Once there were well argued supports for such things. No more.
And on less evidence than there currently is
for the lacking efficacy of spanking.

Of course you think YOU determine that!

Having mere CITIZENS, PARENTS deciding
what is in a child's best interests is a
threat to your favorite megalomaniac BUREACRACY!

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
If a police officer hits me with a baton and he or she had no legal
right to do so, that's assault.

If I presented a threat to him, her, or others, he or she can chose to
use a baton on me, legally, to control and stop me. To effect arrest, as
it were.

That is the law.

attempt to divert snipped

It works better for your credibility, when making a claim about
unethical debating tactics, to not snip and let people see the evidence
for themselves.

Here is what I said that you snipped and lied about my purpose for posting:

"Currently I can find no one in particular in disagreement with this to
the point they feel it necessary to lobby against it. I'll keep watch."

We are discussing changes in law here, Greg, in this thread, so my point
is well taken, and not a diversion at all. Nor an attempt. If it were
I'd then, as you do when you pull off a diversion, change the subject. I
have not, as you can see.

With children there is no similar situation,

Golly that's damn convenient for you!
However, even CPS expects parents to be LAW in their home.
When it's convenient for CPS that is.

There is no similar situation where the child presents a need for self
defense, that is until they are older.

The last two sentences are not on topic. They are, chuckle diversions.
But you'll notice I didn't snip them.

Kane wrote
generally, where the force of hitting would be needed to
stop a child, though I can see how it might be needed
in SOME circumstances, and should not be judged as assault.

Yes, some of us know about your belief it's OK to Taser kids!

And were those to discipline the child, the point of spanking, or were
those to protect the child and others in self defense or safety actions?

Each and every instance that I defended the use of the Taser, it was
either or both. In one a teen was attacking school staff. In another a
little boy was hacking at himself, already having done some serious
cutting with a shard of glass, on his leg, close to a major artery. He
was tasered to stop the risky behavior. A grab of him could have
resulted in his making the cut. An electric shock is paralyzing.

The last case was of a 12 year old drunk girl running and about to enter
a busy thoroughfare.

So, you are either repeating the lies of others with out checking, or
you knew this information I've just provided, and worked up your own lie.

It is not okay to taser kids for discipline. It is for protection, just
as I've said hitting and other physical actions are okay for defense
with a child.

Kane wrote
Spanking, on the other hand, is not an 'emergency' measure, as use of a
baton is. It's a deliberate act with intent to cause pain for "teaching."

Whereas cops don't act for that reason, no doubt! Haha!

If they do, and they are caught at it, they are in trouble, as that
would be assault. As I've said.

Kane wrote
A police officer in a brutality case would surely lose if they were to
say, in court, "I used my baton to teach him not to do that again."

95% of the bad acts by cops are never litigated.
I estimated.

That does not change that their actions would be illegal, just as
hitting a child to "teach them" should also be illegal. I daresay a law
to that effect will not all be litigated either, Greg.

Do you think the law limiting police actions should be removed because
only a percentage are litigated.

The hard data simply vanishes like the Meth in the evidence locker!
Not a trace!

Off topic. We aren't discussing the litigation, it's use, success, or
failure, but the law.

Kane wrote
That IS assault, in all jurisdictions, Greg.

Even if it's not prosecuted?

Good heavens, a major thinking error not even disguised by some ad hom
or other diversion? What ever were you thinking, Greg...oh wait, it's
Greg, after all. Sorry boy.

Greg, all laws are laws whether prosecuted or not on occasion.

Kane wrote
You may NOT teach someone by hitting them,
IF they are an adult, Greg.

And YET such cops DO exist! Amazing!

Yep. And such parents exist, in rather large numbers, sadly. But that
will come to an end.

You keep confusing one thing for another. We don't remove laws on rape
because rape still happens, Greg. Or would you argue we should?

Myriad examples where adults are "taught"
in such ways or worse, come to mind.

Yep. And that makes it okay for parents to beat their children to "teach
them?" How does that work?

Police brutality is illegal, Greg. So is parental brutality. Now the
only task is to show that spanking is a brutal practice.

Greg wrote about Kane
government as king, parents as perps.

Kane wrote
Nope. Government as agent of those that cannot
protect themselves. Abusive parent as perps.

The veritable all seeing eye of government?

I see nothing in my statement that would indicate I am making such a
claim. Why would you argue it with me then?

Hardly the Oracle of Delphi!
Our government can barely operate ITSELF!
The "all seeing eye" is blind and stupid!

Well, then, let's do away with government. Anarchism rules, right, Greg?

Sonny boy, YOU'D be among the first to go, with your inability to
process information accurately.

HYPOTHETICALLY OF COURSE!

Of course. 0:-

We wouldn't want to get the idea that you are anti government, in
general, rather than aware of specific instances of government
malfeasance and want to fix just that, now would we?

Greg wrote
Children all with rights OVER their parents.

Kane wrote
Nope. You seem to have this either/or fixation, Greg.

What a COINCIDENCE that I point out how you
POLARIZE any opponents and twice now you
have tried this reversal of that observation.

Yes, and yet I've never used the word POLARIZE in this context, Greg.
And so there is no observation to reverse.

I'm pointing out that you have an either/or fixation. One has to be all
wrong, or all right in your little world.

Nice try!

Nothing to it, thanks.

Kane wrote
You and I can have conflicting rights, Greg, and
I presume you have no problem accepting that
and accepting that sometimes the court system
must be used to sort that out.

SOUNDS good. Waiting for the other shoe to drop!

There is no other shoe.


Kane wrote
Why is it you cannot afford children that same right?

Ah! There it is!

Oh, that shoe. So obvious it never occurred to me that it was a special
"shoe."

Now rather than agree that children have rights equal to parents, Greg,
go into "your case" to divert to YOUR agenda, as per usual. 0:-

If the GAL would just allow it!
But she's been telling LIES about what the child
has to say, and has the power (for now) to prevent
the child from actually expressing her own wishes
in court.

0:-

The GAL represents supposed "best interests"
of the child, but in reality she is a CPS sicophant.

HYPOTHETICALLY of course!

It won't be long now!

Sloganeering again, Greg, and not even an original. Tsk.

Greg wrote
"The Lord of the Flies" all over again!

Kane wrote
I see no appropriate analogy, unless I accept your
fallacious either/or reasoning, Greg.

Kane wrote
It's both.
Both the child and the parent have rights.
Sometimes they are in conflict.
Thus, CPS. Or criminal court.

Oh yes! I have been SO IMPRESSED with how
Parents Rights under the constitution have been
protected in Juvenile Court..

You should be. They usually don't even get that far. Look at the data on
children in cases investigated by CPS. Most are not moved to being
opened, and those opened often never get to court before the child is
returned home, or the case closed.

So much for a failure to protect parent's rights, Greg. So common it's
hardly even worth mentioning, but you will pretend it doesn't exist.

By the time it reaches court, Greg, it's already bad news.

Refusal to correct PERJURY repeatedly over YEARS,
altered transcript, Judge tried to "unrecuse" herself,

Tried?

prerequisite before TPR violated and hearing that
should never have taken place proved small
conspiracy. Judges making snotty apparently
spiteful comments as they are FORCED to
rule in our favor.

I can't imagine why a judge wouldn't just love you and want to romance
you, Greg. 0;-

ALL HYPOTHETICAL MIND YOU!!!

Oh, then this didn't happen at all?

Kane wrote
A child has a right to life, and to not be
assaulted. As yet, spanking has not been
seen for what it obviously and factually is.
To hit is to assault

Assault is a legal term. Spanking is not legally assault.

Yes, that was the point. No one has tried, Greg, to claim that spanking
is illegal, yet.

Now have they?

I am, of course, pointing out the sophistry present in the laws the
protect "spanking" as though hitting were not involved. The same act
that against an adult is actionable as an assault.

What is it about children, Greg, that makes them hittable, and not you,
legally speaking?

All it's going to take is a law, Greg. Just like slavery, just like
suffrage, just like child protection.

Kane wrote
unless you have circumstances you can
show warranted the hitting.
What support do you have for spanking as being warranted?

Best interests of the child.

And your proof that spanking is in the best interests of the child would
be......?

Parents determine that, period.

Yep, there it is folks. Only the parents, no matter what, apparently,
will decide what is and isn't in the best interests of the child.

Does that include starving them?

Beating them and calling it spanking?

Teaching the about sex by example and live experiments?

Any other things that you think only the parents should make the best
interests decision on, Greg?

Kane wrote
And please, don't give me the old history argument.
Historical evidence has been proven wrong in many
instances. Slavery, women's suffrage, etc.

Of course not, those are juvenile arguments,
pedantic, and stright out of some lame
high school debate society.
You've use both of them.

You mean we were wrong to end slavery? Wrong to give women the vote? We
should still be using children 14 hours a day in factories and mines?

Or that it's juvenile to claim that we shouldn't?

Kane wrote
Once there were well argued supports for such things. No more.
And on less evidence than there currently is
for the lacking efficacy of spanking.

Of course you think YOU determine that!

Nope. The researchers do.

Having mere CITIZENS, PARENTS deciding
what is in a child's best interests is a
threat to your favorite megalomaniac BUREACRACY!

I'm more than supportive of parents deciding what is in the best
interests of children, until it isn't, Greg.

And spanking is a thing that I believe, and believe strongly enough to
support a law banning it, to not be in the best interests of the children.

We once had a common belief, and not too long ago, with repercussions
currently, that black people were not disposed to manage their own
affairs. That they were childish, uncivilized, crime prone, lazy, and
mentally deficient compared to whites.

This was universally believed, Greg. Up to a point. Some few of us,
including Black people themselves came to NOT believe this nonsense.

I think spanking is in many ways similar. The idea that pain is a great
teacher has severe limitations as to effectiveness.

In fact, pain can make us do things that are NOT in our or society's
best interest, Greg.

You can, with CP, make a child stop a behavior when you are present. If
you use it in certain ways, you can even extinguish an unwanted behavior
completely.

The problem with that is that it may not be moral for you to do so. It
may be the behavior had to do with the child's developmental needs,
Greg, actions and activities they needed to do in a protected setting to
learn something that humans need to learn to do.

We see that often in mental health work. A person with a block. Unable
to preform something that most other folks can do easily. It requires
sometimes extensive retraining in childhood skills to gain the needed
skills.

Sometimes the best that can be accomplished is a compensatory OTHER
actions to reach a desired goal, and the original is lost forever.

Often this is tied to, one way or another, an 'extinguished' behavior
they needed to go through in childhood.

Too bad you are so ignorant in this area.

0:-


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:
I have no delusions. I utilize authoritative research, and often quote
it in this newsgroup.

You meant LIES! Remember the Embry Study, Kane? ;-)

Spanking has been linked to later life increase in substance abuse,
depression and other mental illness, and criminal behavior.

The same can be said about non-cp alternatives since, according
to Straus, spanking is the result of non-cp not working.

Groups that have high incidence of crime, and especially violent crime
universally are also cultures that use corporal punishment on their
children.

Did you do your research on the Hutterites? ;-) Not a single homocide
in the last 5 years! Remembered? All because they used spanking as
part of their "non-violent" parenting! ;-)

AF

wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:
I have no delusions. I utilize authoritative research, and often quote
it in this newsgroup.

You meant LIES! Remember the Embry Study, Kane? ;-)

Sure I do. You lied through your teeth for about two years.

Spanking has been linked to later life increase in substance abuse,
depression and other mental illness, and criminal behavior.

The same can be said about non-cp alternatives since, according
to Straus, spanking is the result of non-cp not working.

No, that is not what Straus found. Parents may chose to spank because
their attempt to use non-cp failed. That suggests they do not have good
non-cp methods, and I've pointed that out.

There is a bit too much of non-cp PUNISHMENT going on, instead of
learning about and applying developmentally appropriate tactics in
parenting.

Many have learned to do so and do not have to revert to spanking.

Remember observer?

Groups that have high incidence of crime, and especially violent crime
universally are also cultures that use corporal punishment on their
children.

Did you do your research on the Hutterites? ;-) Not a single homocide
in the last 5 years!

Gee, I wonder why you chose "five years." In the large community of
non-spankers I know there are no homicides for GENERATIONS.

Remembered? All because they used spanking as
part of their "non-violent" parenting! ;-)

Hardly a typical society, monkeyboy.

Do you have any idea now easy it would be to hide a homicide (learn to
spell unless you meant murders of homosexuals, 0:- ) in such a closed
society?

And according to your logic then, all murderers would have to be
non-spanked children.

Those that are spanked, don't murder, right?

Find us a few un-spanked murderers, monkeyboy.

This claim of yours reminds me of your claim about Singapore.

If you wish to live in a fascist government controlled society of
oppression you not only can control human behavior more, YOU CAN GET
AWAY WITH LYING ABOUT IT.

Singapore has a huge hidden child abuse and crime problem. It pops to
the surface, then is quickly suppressed by the government. But you'll
buy about anything that supports your little insane rants, monkeyboy.

It's not because the Hutterites spank, stupid. It's because this is an
ultimate socialist controlled society.

And all is not all flowers and sunlight in said community, monkeyboy:

http://www.perefound.org/em-s_sp.html

Not much to recommend the Bruderhof monkeyboy, except they spank. 0:-

Yet again proof that spanking is a form of abuse and is part and parcel
of a sick society.


AF


0:-


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:
I have no delusions. I utilize authoritative research, and often quote
it in this newsgroup.

You meant LIES! Remember the Embry Study, Kane? ;-)

Spanking has been linked to later life increase in substance abuse,
depression and other mental illness, and criminal behavior.

The same can be said about non-cp alternatives since, according
to Straus, spanking is the result of non-cp not working.

Groups that have high incidence of crime, and especially violent crime
universally are also cultures that use corporal punishment on their
children.

Did you do your research on the Hutterites? ;-) Not a single homocide
in the last 5 years! Remembered? All because they used spanking as
part of their "non-violent" parenting! ;-)

AF

Here is an example of their doublethink that is so similar to the
thinking of the spanking cabal in this ng:

""Corporal punishment can have no place in our education" but "we cannot
always avoid a certain use of force." "

This right out of their teachings.

Value Contradictions
The children must learn to "fight" for truthfulness (Arnold 1976:
43,39,54) but "love" everyone. Children are "free," but when "the sun
hides behind a cloud, the Servant of the Word will interfere." "Corporal
punishment can have no place in our education" but "we cannot always
avoid a certain use of force." As the children grow toward adolescence,
"They adopt a militant stand," but "without violence or coercion."

You picked an interesting group to hold up as champions of spanking,
monkeyboy.

http://www.perefound.org/em-s_sp.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...tegoricalgeome

And:

http://www.perefound.org/KIT7_98.html

"The Calgary Sun, Alberta, Canada, 5/22/98:

Hutterites Face Judge

"Incidents alleged over a ten-year span,"

by Michael Lau

Ten members of two Hutterite colonies east of Calgary, Alberta, have
been charged with 34 counts of sexual assault, sexual interference and
incest over a ten-year period.

Two of the accused men, ranging in age from 17 to 62, pleaded guilty in
Drumheller provincial court to sexual assault and sexual interference.
Nine of the accused are from Ridge Land Colony near the town of Hussar,
and one from another unnamed colony nearby. The alleged offenses
occurred between 1987 and last year against four Hutterites aged 4 to 20
at the time of the incidents.

"I've never see anything of this severity in a Hutterite colony," said
Sgt. Jerry Kopp, commander of the Gleichen/Bassano detachment. "It's
very unusual. They're a very close-knit group of people."

Kopp, an RCMP officer for 28 years including four years in Gleichen,
said Hutterites he's known across Canada are mostly law-abiding
citizens. "They pick up the odd speeding ticket," he said, adding the
colonies of the accused have been very cooperative with police.

"If you look at the outside world, we certainly don't get that kind of
cooperation."

The investigation started after an undisclosed number of victims came
forward and reported the alleged assaults. Further investigation
uncovered several other incidents that led to more charges. The fact the
alleged victims approached outside authorities shows the seriousness of
the offenses -- since Hutterites prefer to resolve their own problems,
said Kopp.

None of the accused are to have contact with children under the age of
17. RSMP have not officially released the names of the two colonies near
Hussar... NOTE: According to the published reports, lawyer Hugh
Sommerville, acting as a friend of the court in advising the colony but
not representing any of the men, said, "These charges involved every boy
touching a girl in the last ten years. Only one of the charges is
serious, that'll be proven in court. We're not dealing with a group of
rapists."

No details of the crimes were given with the guilty pleas. According to
lawyer Sommerville, "I can tell you if investigators went through any
local town school questioning the young girls, they'd find no lack of
young boys doing some improper touching."

click here to return to Table of Contents
ITEM: According to a Reuters dispatch by Jeffrey Jones, four young
Hutterite men were sentenced in Drumheller, Alberta, on Friday, June 26,
to six months probation for sexual assaults.

"In sentencing the men -- all as youths because they were under 18 when
the fondling offenses on young girls were committed -- the judge advised
Hutterites to consider sex education for their children in an effort to
prevent similar tragedies occurring in the future. The four sentenced on
Friday all pleaded guilty to the charges...

"Alberta Judge Gordon Clozza also ordered them to write letters of
apology to their victims for the incidents that took place in classrooms
and basements on the colonies from the late 1980s to mid-1990s. The
girls are acquaintances and relatives of the four men and were six and
seven years old at the time of the assaults.

"Clozza said the men, who cannot be named to protect the identity of the
victims, had already suffered shame and humiliation within the Hutterite
community, whose elders had banished them to other colonies after
details came to light.

"The judge agreed with the defense lawyer's contention that the young
men... were motivated in their actions by curiosity and ignorance.
'Sexual curiosity at that age is understandable, but I know the colony
doesn't like to talk about these matters and does not educate about
these matters,' he said, adding that the major shift to sex education
should now be strongly considered.

"The other six men in the scandal were charged as adults for several
alleged offenses and face trials this summer. A 64-year-old man who was
expected to enter a plea was in the Drumheller hospital on Friday after
suffering a heart attack or stroke earlier in the day in his lawyer's
office, the colonies' legal advisor said.

"During a break in the proceedings, a group of six Hutterite men broke a
stony silence they had maintained since the charges were laid, berating
reporters over the attention given to the scandal, which they said
brought them deep shame.

"'You're just like a bunch of vultures,' one bearded Hutterite man
asserted during a heated exchange with reporters and photographers
outside the courtroom.

"Calling the Hutterites mostly honest and hard-working people, Clozza
said the public should not condemn the entire sect for the actions of a
few." ...

So much for the success of a group using spanking to teach children.


0:-





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

0:- wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:
I have no delusions. I utilize authoritative research, and often quote
it in this newsgroup.

You meant LIES! Remember the Embry Study, Kane? ;-)

Sure I do. You lied through your teeth for about two years.

The PROVEN liar is YOU! It was YOU who said that the study can only be
gotten from Dr. Embry himself. It was YOU who said that the children
in this
study who were spanked had the highest rate of street entries. It was
a lie
and I have proven so!

It is also funny that you claimed Alina and beccafromlalaland were my
socks
out to con you out of a copy of this study. You are hilariously
STUPID, Kane!

Spanking has been linked to later life increase in substance abuse,
depression and other mental illness, and criminal behavior.

The same can be said about non-cp alternatives since, according
to Straus, spanking is the result of non-cp not working.

No, that is not what Straus found. Parents may chose to spank because
their attempt to use non-cp failed. That suggests they do not have good
non-cp methods, and I've pointed that out.

Hihihi! That still meant the link you saw with spanking is also seen
with
the non-cp alternatives in these parents. Got it, STUPID?

There is a bit too much of non-cp PUNISHMENT going on, instead of
learning about and applying developmentally appropriate tactics in
parenting.

Citatation please!

Many have learned to do so and do not have to revert to spanking.

That does not mean they were never-spanked, STUPID!

Remember observer?

Yup! He pointed out your stupidity every time, just like me! ;-)

Groups that have high incidence of crime, and especially violent crime
universally are also cultures that use corporal punishment on their
children.

Did you do your research on the Hutterites? ;-) Not a single homocide
in the last 5 years!

Gee, I wonder why you chose "five years." In the large community of
non-spankers I know there are no homicides for GENERATIONS.

Really? Which community is that? See? I caught you with your LIES
again. ;-)

Remembered? All because they used spanking as
part of their "non-violent" parenting! ;-)

Hardly a typical society, monkeyboy.

Hihihi! You were the one who touted them as a "non-violent" society,
remembered?

Do you have any idea now easy it would be to hide a homicide (learn to
spell unless you meant murders of homosexuals, 0:- ) in such a closed
society?

Hahaha, a freudean slip? ;-) Where is that non-spanking society?

And according to your logic then, all murderers would have to be
non-spanked children.

How did you got that? Another logic of the anti-spanking zealotS?

Those that are spanked, don't murder, right?

Did I say that?

Find us a few un-spanked murderers, monkeyboy.

Find us some un-spanked great men, "never-spanked" Kane0.

This claim of yours reminds me of your claim about Singapore.

Hihihi! Lower crime rate than Sweden!

If you wish to live in a fascist government controlled society of
oppression you not only can control human behavior more, YOU CAN GET
AWAY WITH LYING ABOUT IT.

You meant like our government spying on its citizens? ;-)

Singapore has a huge hidden child abuse and crime problem. It pops to
the surface, then is quickly suppressed by the government. But you'll
buy about anything that supports your little insane rants, monkeyboy.

Hihihi! I should believe you instead, right?

It's not because the Hutterites spank, stupid. It's because this is an
ultimate socialist controlled society.

And all is not all flowers and sunlight in said community, monkeyboy:

http://www.perefound.org/em-s_sp.html

Hahaha! Anotheer of your "formidable research skill", Kane?

Not much to recommend the Bruderhof monkeyboy, except they spank. 0:-

Yet again proof that spanking is a form of abuse and is part and parcel
of a sick society.

Only to the mind of the sick people like you, who think that your
mother would approve
of you calling other a "smelly-****"! ;-)

AF

0:- wrote:
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Greegor wrote:
Doan wrote to Kane
And now you want the child to have his
day in court too? So in your logic, the
police hit you with a baton is not assault
but a parent who spank their kids is?
That's Kane!
If a police officer hits me with a baton and he or she had no legal
right to do so, that's assault.

A parent who spank his/her kid has the legal right to do so, STUPID!

I never claimed they didn't, Stupid.

Then, by definition, it's not assault, STUPID!

I'm saying the law is wrong, stupid.

You are not the emperor, STUPID! Just as anti-abortinists say Roe vs.
Wade
is wrong and abortion is murder does make them so.

Just like slavery was wrong, just like oppression of women under color
of law was wrong, just like exploitation of children from lack of law
was wrong. Stupid.

False analogies, STUPID!

Hence, the result that is inevitable in coming, just as it has elsewhere
in this world, a law making the hitting of children for any reason other
than self defense (just like the law that applies to adults...age 18 and
up) assault, stupid.

But the police hitting you with a baton to gain compliance is not,
right? ;-)

The law that gives the officer the right to hit with his or her baton is
no different than the right I have to strike a child to protect myself
from him or her.

So when the police hit you with his baton, you can hit back, right?
;-)

But that should not give me a legal right to strike a child and NOT call
it assault because I want to "teach" him or her something. The cop can't
do it, and the parent should not be able to do it.

The cop can't give a time-out to "teach" you soemting neither, STUPID!
Are you saying the parents can't give time-out now?

Keep trying monkeyboy. You are looking stupider by the post.

If you want to see something stupid, just look in the mirror,
never-spanked boy! ;-)

AF

wrote:
0:- wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:
I have no delusions. I utilize authoritative research, and often quote
it in this newsgroup.

You meant LIES! Remember the Embry Study, Kane? ;-)
Sure I do. You lied through your teeth for about two years.

The PROVEN liar is YOU! It was YOU who said that the study can only be
gotten from Dr. Embry himself.

Would it be a lie if he himself told me that when I inquired?

He did so. And was kind enough to supply me with a copy personally.

It was YOU who said that the children
in this
study who were spanked had the highest rate of street entries. It was
a lie
and I have proven so!

No, that is not what I said. And you've proven nothing of the sort.

I have, as others have, quoted Dr. Embry in an interview given to a
parenting magazine, where HE said that. Not I. It did not come from the
study, nor did I claim it did.

Here is what I said:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...bd31d77da522f6

.... in response to a post from ChrisScaife:


On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:01:06 +1300, "ChrisScaife"

wrote:
I posted the start of this thread on the wrong news group.
I am now aware that it might be more of interest here. Not much was
said
before this one so...

"dejablues" wrote in message
...
Burning up an occupied dollhouse and gazing upon roadkill?
Uh................

An image is worth a thousand words.
Especially to a young child for whom language itself is a novelty.

Say you have a little toddler who runs to the car, straight across
the road
when it's time to go...
What will make her/him stop and think next time ?

1: "How many-spank- times-spank- have I told-spank-you-spank... not
to -spank- run out-spank- in the road-spank-"

2: The mental image of a squashed animal on the side of the road with
the
words "That can happen to children too if they run out in the road"

3: Reader's suggestion here...?

Take your pick, but everyday, for someone going "Uh...." at road kill
it is
their dead child they are looking at.
Some things we can't afford to let them learn the hard way!

You haven't heard what the Embry study revealed, have you?

Let me explain.

1- If your child is so young they cannot be trusted NOT to run into
traffic, they are too young to be supervised without contact...that is
you should have a hold of them or have adequate barriers in the way.

2- Children that are raised by a parent that support and encourages
the child as they explore, tend to look to the parent in new
situations...and even in the old ones, still.

Hence they are faaaar less likely to run toward traffic.

3- Children, even toddler's, to the suprize of Dr Dennis Embry who
thought punishment models would be effective, were seen to attempt
traffic entries MORE when punished, and LESS when given instruction on
where to play to be safe.

http://www.neverhitachild.org/embry.html

The study, the very first one of its kind, and so far not refuted by
any other studies, is about 25 years old.

He has a whole web site on how this principle works in other things as
well, where he apparently continued to look at the learning models
that are proven to work.

http://www.paxis.org/Default.htm

Humans simply don't work well on a punishment model.

It's been shown again and again. First of all it's way too hard to
sort out the distracting experience of violence tied to a learning
situation, and secondly it can have dangerous side effects...just as
he found...MORE attempts to do the proscribed behavior.

Even adults show strong tendencies such as this.

Of course if all they have known is externally applied
sanctions...through the device of punishment....they come to believe
in them as an adult and are somewhat immune to appeals to conscience
and ethics.

Ever noticed?

Kane




It is also funny that you claimed Alina and beccafromlalaland were my
socks
out to con you out of a copy of this study.

You don't have the study yet, Doan. And you cannot provide a link to it.
If you can why have you not? Surely you would have given it to becca?
And Alina?

Why the requirement to have "postage paid" for you to "ship it" to them,
Doan? 0:-

You are hilariously
STUPID, Kane!

You are lying again. With becca I said she might be. With Alina it's
pretty obvious. A sometimes poster, with almost NO history, and only two
posts since 'her' short string of posts to this newsgroup (your ass
covering, Doan).

'Alina's' first known post to Usenet, Doan, was Jan 24 2004 just about
the time we were most engaged in our discussion of your lies about
having the Embry study.

'Aline' is the name of a nun who is a well known on the campus where you
are. That's how original you are at lying.

'Alina's' last known post was Feb 13, 2006. And so sparce a posting
history, outside our newsgroup, aps, that's obvious it was to create a
trace to give your sock credibility.

'She' would jump into a thread, drop a comment, ONCE, and disappear, and
not respond to other posters answering 'her' post.

A single post, out of all her posts, to a Spanish language ng called
alt.mexico, so obviously a 'demonstration' sockerage that it made me
laugh for a week.

And 'she' didn't even reply in Spanish:

"
From: Alina - view profile
Date: Wed, Apr 28 2004 9:34 am
Email: (Alina)
Groups: alt.mexico
Not yet rated
Rating:
show options
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author

"?" wrote in message
...
alguien sobre aquí ser capaz de señalarme en la dirección derecha
cuando me
gustaría a emmigrate a México de Inglaterra y estaría interesado en
cualquier información o sitios que pueden ser capaces de ayudar a
conseguir
este abogados etc...

What kind of info are you after, exactly? When do you wish to move? "

And the question ALREADY HAD that in it, stupid.

The poster YOU responded to (likely after looking up a translation...if
you weren't too lazy and stupid and tried to figure it out with a little
Spanish you might know) simply asked if there was anyone that could
refer him or her TO A WEBSITE with information (and attorneys)
concerning immigrating to Mexico, coming from England.

YOUR response was not logical, non sequitur of the worst kind. He
already ASKED FOR WHAT HE WANTED, though oddly poorly spoken, in
Spanish. Misplaced plural and singular, a turn of phrase I've never seen
in Spanish before....like a clumsy attempt to indicate which direction
'he' wished to immigrate that turns into a conglomeration of two
countries. Very strange stuff here, Doan.

In fact there was a gross error that puzzles me.

But then he's a British nitwit probably sexual pervert racist ****ant,
that YOU picked at random to try and make your sock credible with a
SINGLE post, that could have, had you been a Mexican citizen, a simple
answer to his request. An URL to a website providing what he clumsily
asked for in his broken Spanish.

Why, I wonder, didn't "Alina" a usually polite and helpful person,
simply answer him? R R R R R R.

Alina's last post, after I had been questioning 'her' credibility by
asking what happened to her....gone for months.

You ARE stupid, Doan.

"From: Alina - view profile
Date: Mon, Feb 13 2006 2:12 pm
Email: "Alina"
Groups: rec.arts.tv, alt.gossip.celebrities, misc.kids,
alt.parenting.solutions
Not yet rated
Rating:
show options
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author

Carseats are overrated . "

Spanking has been linked to later life increase in substance abuse,
depression and other mental illness, and criminal behavior.

The same can be said about non-cp alternatives since, according
to Straus, spanking is the result of non-cp not working.
No, that is not what Straus found. Parents may chose to spank because
their attempt to use non-cp failed. That suggests they do not have good
non-cp methods, and I've pointed that out.

Hihihi! That still meant the link you saw with spanking is also seen
with
the non-cp alternatives in these parents. Got it, STUPID?

Well, I might if you could have someone translate it into standard
English, bright little monkeyboy.

There is a bit too much of non-cp PUNISHMENT going on, instead of
learning about and applying developmentally appropriate tactics in
parenting.

Citatation please!

To what? There are two points above. And If YOU wish to learn about
developmental appropriate tactics in parenting, there are hundreds of
websites listing such information.

And the field of child development is old and broad with a great deal of
research. Look it up, stupid.

Many have learned to do so and do not have to revert to spanking.

That does not mean they were never-spanked, STUPID!

I don't see a claim to that effect by me.

Remember observer?

Yup! He pointed out your stupidity every time, just like me! ;-)

Nope. He fumbled all over himself, came back recently as a sock, has
disappeared again, and 'tried' non-cp parenting and couldn't to it.

It was pointed out to him that likely he had not let go of PUNISHMENT
methods, just CP. And that punishment can easily be misused.

That's why when advocates for non CP methods discuss it they refer to
NON PUNISHMENT methods to replace CP, not PUNISHMENT methods.

We are quite aware of what we are saying and why.

Groups that have high incidence of crime, and especially violent crime
universally are also cultures that use corporal punishment on their
children.

Did you do your research on the Hutterites? ;-) Not a single homocide
in the last 5 years!
Gee, I wonder why you chose "five years." In the large community of
non-spankers I know there are no homicides for GENERATIONS.

Really? Which community is that? See? I caught you with your LIES
again. ;-)

Let me see now, you do not know what community I refer to buy you say
you "caught me?" That, Doan, would of course, be either a lie, or
stupid, or both. I vote for both.

Remembered? All because they used spanking as
part of their "non-violent" parenting! ;-)
Hardly a typical society, monkeyboy.

Hihihi! You were the one who touted them as a "non-violent" society,
remembered?

And after further research what did I report to this newsgroup, Doan?

You are attempting to mislead, by omission. Do you know what one
dictionary definition of lying is? Attempting to mislead by omission.

Do you have any idea now easy it would be to hide a homicide (learn to
spell unless you meant murders of homosexuals, 0:- ) in such a closed
society?

Hahaha, a freudean slip? ;-) Where is that non-spanking society?

Yours?

YOU wrote HOMOcide, Doan. Not I.

In a large portion of the homeschooling community. And among a very
large group of people from many walks of life that I have known over the
years.

And according to your logic then, all murderers would have to be
non-spanked children.

How did you got that? Another logic of the anti-spanking zealotS?

No, the logic of the pro spanking advocated, the compulsives.

You claimed that the Hutterites, because they spank, had no murders in
the past five years. (Of course they don't seem to be entirely violent
crime free, now do they? R R R R R)

That would equate with murders being the more common provenance of
NON-SPANKERS, would it not?

Those that are spanked, don't murder, right?

Did I say that?

Logically, by claiming a spanking community has had no murders, yes.

Or, you might have to admit that spanking is NOT the reason there are no
murders for the past five years in the Hutterite community.

Find us a few un-spanked murderers, monkeyboy.

Find us some un-spanked great men, "never-spanked" Kane0.

Being unspanked is so unremarkable, to those that haven't been they
often do not mention it. No reason to. It's the absence of an act.

I would hardly mention casually that I have had never been held up at
gun point, but far more likely to mention it if I had.

This claim of yours reminds me of your claim about Singapore.

Hihihi! Lower crime rate than Sweden!

If you wish to live in an oppressive fascist society.

If you wish to live in a fascist government controlled society of
oppression you not only can control human behavior more, YOU CAN GET
AWAY WITH LYING ABOUT IT.

You meant like our government spying on its citizens? ;-)

Yep.

Is this why Singapore oppresses it's citizens? Because they have had a
war on terror going on for all these years?

Singapore has a huge hidden child abuse and crime problem. It pops to
the surface, then is quickly suppressed by the government. But you'll
buy about anything that supports your little insane rants, monkeyboy.

Hihihi! I should believe you instead, right?

Yes.

You seem to have forgotten the posts where I cited (and source linked
to) rising youth crime rates in Singapore, now haven't you, Doan? 0:-

There should be, if this is the bastion of non - crime you seem to have
deluded yourself into believing, almost no crime at all, particularly
against children.

http://www.childrensociety.org.sg/c_abuse.html
Seems the do indeed have such a problem with child abuse.

http://www.childrensociety.org.sg/do...abuse%22%20%22
Not uncommon for societies that are indulging in the self delusion that
spanking is a loving act.

I find it unconsciounable that a society as "crime free" as Singapore
even needs to make an attitude study on child abuse. It just shows HOW
FAR BEHIND THEY ARE SOCIALLY, and I attribute that to their oppression
by their government.

From the study above:

"SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
After the findings of the study were summarized, a definition of child
abuse and
neglect was proposed. The definition took into account the views of the
community
that was sampled, but it also included within its scope childrearing
practices which
may be detrimental to children and was sensitive to the legal situation
in Singapore.
Firstly, the definition made a distinction between maltreatment and abuse.
Secondly, abuse was further divided into three main types. The proposed
definitions
were as follows:
Maltreatment of a child occurs in any behaviour, that has or is likely
to have a net
damaging or adverse consequence on a child, whether or not intended, by
any person
having the custody, charge or care of the child, or from whom the child
could
reasonably expect proper treatment (with the exception of sexual
maltreatment which
can be perpetrated by any adult).
Abuse is maltreatment resulting from wilful action on the part of a person
responsible for a child (with the exception of sexual abuse which can be
perpetrated
by any adult). It is broken down into three types, namely child abuse,
child sexual
abuse and neglect. These types correspond to the categories found in the
CYPA.
It is suggested that child abuse be defined as comprising wilful
physical and/or
emotional maltreatment; child sexual abuse be defined as the wilful sexual
maltreatment of the child; and child neglect as the failure to provide
adequate care
amounting to wilful maltreatment.
Conclusion
106
As a result of this study, some recommendations were also made. There were
suggestions that:
1. Various organizations and individuals should be encouraged to conduct
more
research in the local context;
2. There should be a central register of child abuse and neglect, which
can collect
data on official as well as unofficial cases;
3. The public should be educated to report child abuse and neglect;
4. Public education should feature emotional maltreatment, although they
should
not forget about the other three forms of child abuse and neglect;
5. There should be therapy for the victims in order to meet their
psychological,
emotional and social needs and not just treatment for their physical
injuries;
6. There should be treatment for perpetrators of child abuse and neglect;
7. Prevention programmes should target “high risk” parents and provide
parent
education and support;
8. Professionals should be trained in the proper management of cases of
child
abuse & neglect and multi-disciplinary “child protection” teams should
be set
up;
9. A law to make reporting mandatory could be considered."

They KNOW, in other words that they have a serious problem with child
abuse, but that they have NOT done much about it in Singapore.

http://www.corpun.com/sgd00005.htm
The is story is interesting as it supports a number of claims
non-spanking advocates have made in this ng.

One I point to, that is obvious, is that caning was NOT working. Even
being hit that hard did not stop the girls from being noisy.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?s...8126 6738B252

One of the most violent places on the planet, barring war, is South
Africa. You ARE aware they use CP on children there, are you not?

Why did it work in Singapore and not in SA, Doan?

Could it be CP is not the critical element?

That it's actually NOT needed to raise children, or run a country well?

http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/3904/articles/3904a3.html
In fact, in Singapore society "caning" children is considered
non-abusive. Do YOU personally think hitting a child with the typical
cane they use (usually a piece of Rattan...so you know what that is?) is
not abusive?

This is what THEIR kind of government has brought them too. Creating
what appears on the surface to be an orderly and healthy society, while
rot such as this is going on under cover.

http://www.law.washington.edu/pacrim/abstract/6.2.htm
.... While most literature in this area concentrates either on the rights
guaranteed by the Convention or issues raised by studying child abuse
across cultures, this Comment incorporates elements of both approaches
into its analysis. Examination of the child abuse statutes and relevant
policies of Hong Kong, China, Singapore, and Indonesia reveals that
child maltreatment is particularly influenced by cultural relativism.
This analysis further indicates that cultural attitudes, a government's
regulatory strength within the familial context, and economic prosperity
all contribute to obscure the fine line between child abuse and child
discipline. Consequently, a full realization of the benefits guaranteed
by Article 19 in these four countries may not be achieved until children
are understood as rights bearers within the family as well as in
society. ...


It's not because the Hutterites spank, stupid. It's because this is an
ultimate socialist controlled society.

And all is not all flowers and sunlight in said community, monkeyboy:

http://www.perefound.org/em-s_sp.html

Hahaha! Anotheer of your "formidable research skill", Kane?

No comment on the content, then? R R R R R R R

Not much to recommend the Bruderhof monkeyboy, except they spank. 0:-

Yet again proof that spanking is a form of abuse and is part and parcel
of a sick society.

Only to the mind of the sick people like you, who think that your
mother would approve of you calling other a "smelly-****"! ;-)

I don't have to "think" it, dummy. She told me so. She was alive at the
time I made the remark. She looked at the quotes from Fern supporting
the beating of children by church members and was more offended than I.

We are open and honest with our feelings in our family. Unlike you.

And what would be sick about being against the self delusion that
spanking is not hitting, and that spanking is not simply assault under
color of law?

It's just fact.

AF

0:-

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)