128 students suspended at Ind. school

"nimue" wrote in message
...
toypup wrote:
Well, that's good. Would you have bothered to reread them if I had just
asked you. Would you have bothered if no one came to my defense? I don't
mean to antagonize you; I just want you to think about it. I know I can
be
a jerk, so if someone tells me I am, I really try to take a good look at
my
behavior.

What got me
riled was the way she came in with swords raised and her manner of
address for some posters and her use of "stupid" to describe posts
(since it implies the poster was not bright and is an attack on the
poster). My arguments regarding the topic stands. However, if Nimue
felt attacked, I appologize.

I do wish you had written "I am sorry for attacking nimue." However, you
tried. I accept your apology and I am sorry for how I attacked you. I
know
I was a jerk -- I get that way when I am attacked; many of us do. We both
did here, I guess.


If Nimue is reading this, I appologize. I do think you were striking
below the belt, in you latest posts and have been the bully lately.
I think you should own up to that.

Oh, that's not a good apology. It's really not. It focuses on me and
what
I have done wrong. It makes excuses for you and puts the blame on me. I
know my kids would see right through that kind of "apology" and it would
make them angry. C'mon. I admit I was a jerk to you. I am sorry. I
wish
I could be a better person. That's a better apology and I mean it.

You're still being quite antagonistic. However, I'm sorry for being harsh
to you. I wasn't very nice to you. Better? Let's move on.

"Nan" wrote in message
...
Hey Barbara, if you haven't killfiled me, I apologize for my words
yesterday.

Ahh, it's nice to see the peace again.

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Nan" wrote in message
...
Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally.

Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids is that regulars get into long and
sometimes intense arguments.

And the nice thing about it is most people don't seem to hold a grudge. So,
we can debate fiercely, but when the next topic comes up, it is a new topic.

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just generally
think of bullying as being several people ganging up on one, or one person
being belligerent while the other is cowering. This situation seemed much
more like a pretty even match between two people. And in that situation,
I (obviously don't mind my own business like I should) try to play
peacemaker.

I like your role as peacemaker. Anyway, I do think it was an even match.
Nimue certainly didn't cower.

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:58:11 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:


"Jen" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just
generally think of bullying as being several people ganging up on one, or
one person being belligerent while the other is cowering. This situation
seemed much more like a pretty even match between two people. And in
that situation, I (obviously don't mind my own business like I should)
try to play peacemaker.

No, it wasn't only one person, there were others as well. That's why I
felt the need to step in.

I also meant to say, she sounded *cornered*, and was constantly defending
herself, and explaining herself.

Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally. I have no trouble defending someone I perceive as
being treated unfairly.
I like a good debate as well as anyone, but it doesn't need to spiral
down into what this discussion turned into.

Hey Barbara, if you haven't killfiled me, I apologize for my words
yesterday.

You have far too many interesting ideas and comments -- whether or not
I agree with them -- to ever killfile you.

I do sincerely regret that things I've said in the past have hurt or
offended you. I'll still defend myself by saying that I never intend
such an effect, but since my words clearly appear to have resulted in
that, I take responsibility for it and apologize.

Barbara

"Barbara" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then
the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that
can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those
solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We
are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most
poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and
those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

Even a short reading of this thread will tell you that I can't speak
for Nan. ;- But, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think that
the only two possibilities are *I know how to fix that* and *oh woe is
me, there's no solution* I think that sometimes we have to recognize a
problem, recognize that whatever we're doing now isn't solving it, and
experiment, brainstorm, study, etc to find another way. The fact that
*I* can't solve it doesn't mean that we give up, or that we're already
doing the best we can. Of course, it also doesn't mean that we stop
doing the best that we can -- which may be status quo -- while we work
to make improvements.

In terms of school, I think that teachers have, for many years, filled
in many of the gaps we're discussing, esp for the youngest kids. I
don't find that an optimal solution simply because I don't think its
fair for teachers to have to reach into their own pockets for these
things. But yes, in the end, you're not going to find a lot of first
graders without pencils or notebooks.

I happen to believe that ALL human beings have certain capabilities,
and while some will fail despite their best efforts, many people simply
choose to not put out their best efforts. Because, of course, there are
many deeply poor people who DO succeed. Who care enough for their
children that they do what is necessary to help their children succeed.

But there are even more people who have butted their heads against the
wall for so long that they give up. People who are disabled (as was
the man I discussed earlier). Illiterate. Unable to speak or
understand English. Who lack life skills. (I once represented a child
whose mother had never been able to get her and her sister to school on
the same day because they attended different schools. It never
occurred to her to take BOTH kids out, walk to the first school, and
continue on to the second.) And yes, there are people who are lazy,
drug addicts, or plain old don't care about their kids. I'm not
willing to abandon the KIDS because of the parents.

(BTW, having checked, a family of 3 in Indiana is eligible for food
stamps if they make under about 21,000/year. The family can get up to
$300 a month in stamps. That, with those free school breakfasts and
lunches available at that income level, should provide ample food for
the family, without having to miss a meal to buy a packet of pens.)
(Oh, and you can actually rent a nice 2 br apt. in this town for around
$450-$500, a one bedroom for under $400.)

Its been a while since I've worked legal aid. But back in the day, you
couldn't get benefits if you didn't have an address. And you couldn't
get an apartment without first/last/security deposit. Of course, if
you had *that* kind of money, you were going to go over the asset
limits and be denied benefits. The government was never exactly
throwing money at people; benefits were not all that easy to get.

In Wisconsin they can no longer hold your car against you or your savings
account or your 401k as long as you dont handle the money.. so where Jeffs
comes straight out of his pay we dont have that held against us. We actualy
get food stamps and the state medical ins. We probably wont qualify for
much food stamps in october though because Jeff got a raise.. we didnt have
to report it because it fell under the cap to report.

Tori

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:12:33 -0400, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Nan" wrote in message
.. .
Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally.

Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids is that regulars get into long and
sometimes intense arguments. This group has evolved into more of a
debating society than a social or support group. At one point there
used to be many more ctts and cttd posts -- even the occasional birth
story. While we still field "advice" questions such as "Help! My 2
year old isn't sleeping!" an increasingly large part of this group has
become debates on philosophical or political questions. The
unfortunate part is that we don't have a moderator -- and I mean
moderator in the real life sense of "someone to keep the conversation
on track" rather than the Usenet "someone to censor objectionable
posts" sense -- so often these debates go off track and get into name
calling and hurt feelings.

Oh, I don't wish to have the ctts and birth story posts either. I
like alt.mothers for the closeness of the friends I have there, that
has extended to real life. But I wouldn't debate fiercely over there.
It's why I like misc.kids.

Nan

On 1 Sep 2006 08:23:31 -0700, "Barbara" wrote:


You have far too many interesting ideas and comments -- whether or not
I agree with them -- to ever killfile you.

Thank you, and I feel the same about your ideas and comments.

I do sincerely regret that things I've said in the past have hurt or
offended you. I'll still defend myself by saying that I never intend
such an effect, but since my words clearly appear to have resulted in
that, I take responsibility for it and apologize.

I think I know you didn't intend it and I'm not sure why it bothered
me at the time. But water under the bridge, hey?

Nan

On 1 Sep 2006 06:27:37 -0700, wrote:


Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

No. I am not agreeing to that and I never will. Barbara put it so
much better than I did, I'll let her post speak for me EG

I happen to believe that ALL human beings have certain capabilities,
and while some will fail despite their best efforts, many people simply
choose to not put out their best efforts. Because, of course, there are
many deeply poor people who DO succeed. Who care enough for their
children that they do what is necessary to help their children succeed.

(BTW, having checked, a family of 3 in Indiana is eligible for food
stamps if they make under about 21,000/year. The family can get up to
$300 a month in stamps. That, with those free school breakfasts and
lunches available at that income level, should provide ample food for
the family, without having to miss a meal to buy a packet of pens.)
(Oh, and you can actually rent a nice 2 br apt. in this town for around
$450-$500, a one bedroom for under $400.)

Well, I know you're talking about a pen and notebook, which is cheap.
But here's the list for my dd's First Grade class:

Backpack
Box of pencils to share with the class
2 boxes of tissues
4-6 dry erase markers
24 ct. box of crayons
Scissors
Bottle school glue
3 glue sticks
Gym shoes w/non-marking soles
2 boxes snacks to share with class
1 box gallon size storage bags (girls)
1 box quart size storage bags (boys)

I am aware that not all the students in a class are able to or will
supply these items for whatever reason, and the teacher will likely
come up with the supplies for the children, if possible. I always
send in extra so the teacher can add them to her pool, just in case.
But, it is a bit more extensive than just thinking they need a pen and
notebook.
Gym shoes are the most expensive item, and without them the student
has to sit on the bleachers and watch.... they cannot participate in
gym without the proper shoes.

Nan

On 1 Sep 2006 07:37:09 -0700, "Barbara" wrote:

wrote:
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

Even a short reading of this thread will tell you that I can't speak
for Nan. ;- But, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think that
the only two possibilities are *I know how to fix that* and *oh woe is
me, there's no solution* I think that sometimes we have to recognize a
problem, recognize that whatever we're doing now isn't solving it, and
experiment, brainstorm, study, etc to find another way. The fact that
*I* can't solve it doesn't mean that we give up, or that we're already
doing the best we can. Of course, it also doesn't mean that we stop
doing the best that we can -- which may be status quo -- while we work
to make improvements.

Perfect!! You speak for me well ;-)

In terms of school, I think that teachers have, for many years, filled
in many of the gaps we're discussing, esp for the youngest kids. I
don't find that an optimal solution simply because I don't think its
fair for teachers to have to reach into their own pockets for these
things. But yes, in the end, you're not going to find a lot of first
graders without pencils or notebooks.

I try to send in extras when I can so the teacher doesn't have to fill
the gap. Staples had a sale on boxes of pencils for 3-cents a box so
I bought the limit of 3 and sent in 2 boxes. I found a package of 10
glue sticks for $1, so I sent all 10 in.

I happen to believe that ALL human beings have certain capabilities,
and while some will fail despite their best efforts, many people simply
choose to not put out their best efforts. Because, of course, there are
many deeply poor people who DO succeed. Who care enough for their
children that they do what is necessary to help their children succeed.

But there are even more people who have butted their heads against the
wall for so long that they give up. People who are disabled (as was
the man I discussed earlier). Illiterate. Unable to speak or
understand English. Who lack life skills. (I once represented a child
whose mother had never been able to get her and her sister to school on
the same day because they attended different schools. It never
occurred to her to take BOTH kids out, walk to the first school, and
continue on to the second.) And yes, there are people who are lazy,
drug addicts, or plain old don't care about their kids. I'm not
willing to abandon the KIDS because of the parents.

Yes!!!!

(BTW, having checked, a family of 3 in Indiana is eligible for food
stamps if they make under about 21,000/year. The family can get up to
$300 a month in stamps. That, with those free school breakfasts and
lunches available at that income level, should provide ample food for
the family, without having to miss a meal to buy a packet of pens.)
(Oh, and you can actually rent a nice 2 br apt. in this town for around
$450-$500, a one bedroom for under $400.)

Its been a while since I've worked legal aid. But back in the day, you
couldn't get benefits if you didn't have an address. And you couldn't
get an apartment without first/last/security deposit. Of course, if
you had *that* kind of money, you were going to go over the asset
limits and be denied benefits. The government was never exactly
throwing money at people; benefits were not all that easy to get.

And they're still not. FS no longer considers a vehicle as an asset,
but it is an asset for TANF, which supplies cash benefits. And if you
cannot show documentation on how your bills are getting paid (such as
not having enough money to pay your rent), your benefits can be
denied.

I really *do* wish that the answers were as easy as you'd like them to
be, but all I have to do is look out at some of the communities in the
cities where I've lived (NY, Boston, Philly) to know that they're not.

Exactly.

Nan