9-year-old and not listening

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

"Marie" wrote in message
I don't have any consequences, but one thing that really works for us is
to use lists.

Thanks Marie. A list would probably help, as I did that before and it seemed
to help. I have to keep hounding her though.

We do, as well, but it's more of the "What's next on your list?" variety.
DS1's morning routine is all kinda necessary for getting to school in good
order.

Is it that your daughter is actually not willing to do these things, or
does she "space out" and forget?

Both, but it is more that she is not willing to do anything to help out or
even take care of her own things. It's a chore for me to get her to do
anything.

Have you sat her down and asked why? Not that it would necessarily produce a
useful or accurate answer, but in order to show her what her behaviour looks
like from the outside. Does she admit that she sets the table, X does the
dishes and Y the ironing and that it all helps the family to run smoothly?
IOW, has she seen that her jobs are *important*?

And what exactly does she do with her time, if she does not play with
toys?

I don't know, that's a good question. She plays with the cat, she plays on
the piano, the girls play together but not with any toys per se. They play
imagination games where they come up with a play-like situation and then
they all act it out. She has taken an interest in the Littlest Pet Shop
toys. She drives her sisters batty, especially when she is bored. If she
played with something on her own or was interested in something, I think she
wouldn't be as annoying to everyone.

Seems to me that she is strongly people-oriented, so time-outs/groundings
might be the World's Worst Punishment. OTOH you hint that she doesn't have
any strong interest, so perhaps she might like to take up some kind of hobby.
Youth Theatre? Or maybe a departure from that -- art, craft, music, sport.
What does she read?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"droxy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Wow, lots of great advise and I agree with all of them. I had the same
problem with my son at that age among other things, so I took advantage
of working with a Child Management Worker from CAS to help me out. One
of the methods he taught me was time out, which works this way.
Tell the child what it is you want them to do. If they don't respond
within a reasonable amount of time (you decide what that is for you)
give them two choices, they can either do it or go on "time out" until
they are ready to do as you asked or for a specific time (10 mins, 20
mins, whatever you decide) "Time out" means having them sit on a chair
with their hands comfortably on their legs. Have the chair placed so
that they can't watch TV if it's on, but so that you can see them. My
son used to fidget and play around on time out, so the worker told me
to let him know that his time (if I had set a specific amount of time)
started when he was sitting still and not fidgeting.

This is great, except DS is not moving to the time out spot. He is still
small enough that I can pick him up and haul him to his room kicking and
screaming, but what about when he gets too big for that? Once he is in
there, he tries to do damage to his room. When it's his possesions, I can
remove the possesions, but what about the wall and door and the mirrored
sliding door to the closet? Thankfully, things haven't progresses that far,
but I can see that happening, if we can't get his emotions under control.

DS's a very good kid, but when he gets upset, he cares about nothing. He is
very sorry to us afterwards, though he doesn't care about his things that
are destroyed. They are usually toys that he bought with his own money. We
don't usually buy toys except for his birthday and Christmas. He doesn't
have an allowance per se. We give him stars, which he can use towards trips
to Disneyland (3 to 5 rides, we have a pass), McDonald's, etc., or $4. If
he saves for money, he can get about $4 per week, but he gets less than
that, because he doesn't always save for money and he does not always get
his stars.

In case you are wondering, DS does not get stars for good behavior. He gets
stars everyday. He loses stars for poor behavior, if that makes any sense.
There is a difference.

Oh, and counting to five has worked until now. Now, he counts to five for
me.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
I had one that would rather sit in a time-out until she passed out
rather than comply with a demand to do something. I never used that
method with her BTW. It worked better for me to ask her politely, or
discuss it with her. Especially as a teen -

LOL. I love your description. DD is just as stubborn. She won't even go
into time out. Well, she goes to her spot, but then she scoots until she's
right at my feet. I scoot her back, but it's a struggle. We keep scooting
back and forth until I forget why she was in time out in the first place.
There's got to be a better way.

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

This is great, except DS is not moving to the time out spot. He is still
small enough that I can pick him up and haul him to his room kicking and
screaming, but what about when he gets too big for that? Once he is in
there, he tries to do damage to his room. When it's his possesions, I can
remove the possesions, but what about the wall and door and the mirrored
sliding door to the closet? Thankfully, things haven't progresses that far,
but I can see that happening, if we can't get his emotions under control.

There is a reason that DS1 wasn't sent to his room -- he was sent to the
toilet instead! Nothing dangerous (nor fun) in there, and if he had a need he
could fulfil it :-) And I say "was". DS1 is now over 5.5yo and I can't
remember the last time he needed a time-out (months). He might well need them
again later on, or I might find other things more effective, but atm he
usually just needs a scolding.

DS's a very good kid, but when he gets upset, he cares about nothing.

You mean he's completely hysterical? In that case, definitely put him
somewhere where he can't damage himself or other things.

In case you are wondering, DS does not get stars for good behavior. He gets
stars everyday. He loses stars for poor behavior, if that makes any sense.
There is a difference.

Why, though? A focus on *removing* stars rather than *awarding* them doesn't
seem like a good idea to me. DS1's school has wonderful results from its
positive discipline programme, where the teachers 'catch kids being good'.
The kids get Happy Cards for good behaviour, and there is a tiered system of
awards depending on how many Happy Cards you collect. Teachers award up to
three Happy Cards a day, and the higher awards are given at assembly, so it's
made easy for the kids to see/get public recognition for good behaviour. Why
don't you try issuing stars for good behaviour and see whether there's a
change?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
We do, as well, but it's more of the "What's next on your list?" variety.
DS1's morning routine is all kinda necessary for getting to school in good
order.

That is probably my problem because I wish that I could just tell her to do
her list without too much involvement from me and she probably needs more
input from me.

Have you sat her down and asked why?

Yes sort of. She just says that she doesn't like to do it, which prompts me
saying that no one does but it does have to be done in order for the family
to run smoothly. She knows that she needs to do, she just doesn't want to.
Also, it could be that she is getting nothing positive at the end because we
have been really busy and haven't had much time for fun family stuff.

Seems to me that she is strongly people-oriented, so time-outs/groundings
might be the World's Worst Punishment.

Yes, she is very people oriented. Time outs have worked, but the only
problem I have with a time out when we are doing chores, is that she gets
out of doing them. I thought though that she would do them once her time out
is over and maybe the other girls would be done and onto something fun. This
probably would work.

OTOH you hint that she doesn't have any strong interest, so perhaps she
might like to take up some kind of ?hobby. Youth Theatre? Or maybe a
departure from that -- art, craft, music, sport.

Kara is actually pretty busy, believe it or not. She takes piano once a
week, choir once a week, girls scouts a few times a month, soccer is over
right now, but she will play indoor in January and of course school. She
doesn't have many friends and is quite behind socially, which is a huge
problem.

What does she read?

She doesn't. ( We read together every night before bed, but she doesn't
just pick up a book and read, unlike her sisters and the rest of the family.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
A book you might want to take a look at is this one:
http://tinyurl.com/ygnq5y. The title is a little off-putting
until you read the book and understand that they don't really
mean it the way you think they do.

Hah, she is pretty manipulative and I have fell for it hook, line, and
sinker. ;o) I have just ordered two books that are along these lines, so if
I don't get some good input from those, I will look into this book. Thanks
so much for your insight. It really does help.

When you've got a kid who doesn't play with a lot of toys,
the effective consequences you can come up with often
are as much or more of a pain for the parents than the
kids! ;-)

Yes I agree. I sometimes wish she was into playstation or some such so it
would be easier to take it away.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

This is great, except DS is not moving to the time out spot. He is still
small enough that I can pick him up and haul him to his room kicking and
screaming, but what about when he gets too big for that? Once he is in
there, he tries to do damage to his room. When it's his possesions, I
can
remove the possesions, but what about the wall and door and the mirrored
sliding door to the closet? Thankfully, things haven't progresses that
far,
but I can see that happening, if we can't get his emotions under control.

There is a reason that DS1 wasn't sent to his room -- he was sent to the
toilet instead! Nothing dangerous (nor fun) in there, and if he had a
need he
could fulfil it :-) And I say "was". DS1 is now over 5.5yo and I can't
remember the last time he needed a time-out (months). He might well need
them
again later on, or I might find other things more effective, but atm he
usually just needs a scolding.

DS's a very good kid, but when he gets upset, he cares about nothing.

You mean he's completely hysterical? In that case, definitely put him
somewhere where he can't damage himself or other things.

In case you are wondering, DS does not get stars for good behavior. He
gets
stars everyday. He loses stars for poor behavior, if that makes any
sense.
There is a difference.

Why, though?

Because I believe he should always be good. He shouldn't be behaving just
to get money or whatever. I shouldn't be paying him to be good. The school
has a similar system. He has a yellow face always, but when it turns red,
he loses priveleges. It works wonders there. They also have a catch them
being good program, but I believe that is more random. I do reward good
behavior randomly, but I do not think a strict reward system for that is
good. That is just my belief, based on no studies whatsoever.

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..

A book you might want to take a look at is this one:
http://tinyurl.com/ygnq5y. The title is a little off-putting
until you read the book and understand that they don't really
mean it the way you think they do. The general technique
they advocate is stop-pause-redirect (stop the inappropriate
action, have the child do nothing until they regain control,
and redirect them back to something appropriate), but it helps
to read their description of the background for their
recommendations. When you understand that, their insights
have a lot of applicability. I think one of the pitfalls of
a lot of consequences-based strategies is that at some level,
it does give the impression that if you're willing to suffer
the consequences, you can do whatever you want.

Ericka, you are spot on with this. DS does sometimes agree with suffering
the consequences to continue to misbehave. After we give a consequence and
then he agrees to suffer it, we sometimes end up at a loss, since we don't
want him to do it at all, so you are absolutely right. I did read the book
and I have respect for your parenting methods. The authors have a point.
Have you tried this at home and does it really work? I am going to try it,
but it would help if I knew it worked for someone IRL. I read the part
about the oppositional child, too. That's DS. Sounds like a sort of battle
at first, to get the child to stay put until quiet. It seems they are
saying that if the child is battling during the pause, all the misdeeds
during the battle (name-calling, struggling, hitting, spitting) should be
ignored, not punished or anything. They stress no punishment during SPR and
maintaining composure. The examples they gave did not mention what to do
about the battling child other than to carry on with SPR. Am I right on
this?

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I think one of the pitfalls of
a lot of consequences-based strategies is that at some level,
it does give the impression that if you're willing to suffer
the consequences, you can do whatever you want. In reality,
some things are mandatory.

I'm not convinced you are right about that. I do think that in some
circumstances, people do not want to apply the obvious consequences to their
children (usually because they are too harsh, such as the consequence of
running into traffic), or the consequence is too nebulous to have any effect
(eg, the consequence of not making one's bed).

What I meant was the usual interaction with a kid
where they don't want to do something, so you remove
video game privileges. They still don't want to do it,
so you remove tv privileges. They still don't want to do
it so you ground them. They're still mad, and willing to
bite their nose off to spite their face, so you keep trying
to think up things to remove to get them to do what they
are required to do. This is miserable all around and not
very successful. If you're in this boat, a different
strategy is likely appropriate. It's not use with a kid
who's willing to give up all the stuff you're willing to
take away, at least in the heat of battle, plus it teaches
an odd lesson.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Sue wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
A book you might want to take a look at is this one:
http://tinyurl.com/ygnq5y. The title is a little off-putting
until you read the book and understand that they don't really
mean it the way you think they do.

Hah, she is pretty manipulative and I have fell for it hook, line, and
sinker. ;o) I have just ordered two books that are along these lines, so if
I don't get some good input from those, I will look into this book. Thanks
so much for your insight. It really does help.

This one might not be what you think, based on the
title. It is about a type of manipulation, but not necessarily
the sort that we usually think of. However, I think they
have some very powerful insights. Whether you agree with
their proposed methods or not, I think the insights will
definitely change how you approach some parenting issues.

Best wishes,
Ericka