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Spanking and perceptions of frequency in China.
Let's do a history lesson, shall we then?
Note the dates please. 13. Doan View profile Hide options Oct 9 2004, 6:25 am Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking From: Doan Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:25:12 -0700 Local: Sat, Oct 9 2004 6:25 am Subject: Kane0 caught lying again High rates of violence among youth- Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author On 8 Oct 2004, kane wrote: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 01:52:39 GMT, Pangur Ban wrote: Chris C. wrote: Can we dialogue?... Often on this newsgroup we discuss (or should I say fail to discuss) the high rate of youth violence and how it has increased over the decades here in the U.S. (as families move often from structured parenting praxis to permissive or non-parenting practices--See Ryan and Cooper, 2004 for an introductory discussion on the average time spent with our kids). Even if we make comparisons across cultures --our rate of youth violence is much higher than other lesser developed countries with more accepted traditional parenting praxis and family roles. Isn't another factor the breaking of extended families? Well, Ms Pangur, that could be. The breaking down of traditional practices (praxis) can be a factor in the loss of extended family, but I've certainly seen changes in child rearing practices where extended family is NOT disrupted, as in China, more especially Taiwan, which has a thorough mix of traditional and non-traditional practices, generally. The(y) still, regardless of lifestyle, tend to dote on their male child (and not just a little on the females for that matter) and spoil them, in the best sense, of course. Kane comments on spanking in Chinese families ... not about schools as he tries to argue...the usual putting words in another's mouth, or keyboard as it we Spanking is a much more rare occurance there. Doan responds: LOL! If you're gonna lie, at least be smart about it! Check this out. [[[ I was not lying. I have Chinese relatives and extensive numbers of friend ship, and have lived IN Chinese culture IN Chinese communities. Read on. ]]] China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004 Spanking goes on in schools despite law Taipei, The China Post Staff Corporal punishment, forbidden by the Ministry of Education, goes on in elementary and junior high schools across Taiwan, according to a survey released by the Humanistic Education Foundation yesterday. Altogether 1,311 students in 62 junior high schools and 159 primary schools were polled. Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were reported in nine out of every ten schools surveyed. Altogether 93.5 percent of the schools visited reported corporal punishment, the survey shows. A 70 percent majority of students have been given corporal punishment so far in the current school year. The foundation defines corporal punishment as "punishment that causes physical pain on the body or psychological pain through bodily control." Aside from spanking, forms of corporal punishment as defined by the foundation include a painful posture imposed on students, an increase of schoolwork, labor service, mutual slappings, fining, tagging, shaven heads and ridiculings in public. By far, spanking is the most popular form of corporal punishment, the study indicates. A total of 72 percent of the respondents said they saw teachers spank students. Only 11 percent said they never saw their teachers mete out any corporal punishment. Half of the causes for corporal punishment was disobedience. Other causes include poor schoolwork (35 percent) and group punishment (20 percent). About 14 percent of the respondents said teachers demanded that their parents agree to corporal punishment. One third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they ought to be punished for disobedience. Another 29 percent said they were afraid of corporal punishment. Still another 20 percent want to avenge themselves on the teachers. Only 13 percent believe teachers punished them to give vent to their frustration. Asked if they would spank their students when they became teachers, 65 percent of the respondents replied they would. "That indicates," a foundation spokesman said, "they would continue the tradition of not sparing the rod to spoil the child." He urged the Ministry of Education to outlaw corporal punishment. "We need legislation to outlaw it once and for all," he said. The Ministry of Education said the law on teaching now requires school authorities to deal with corporal punishment. "The schools, parents and students have to agree on a set of disciplinary regulations, which should be satisfactory to all," said Ho Chin-tsai, a Ministry of Education student discipline specialist. But, Ho added, the Ministry of Education is opposed to any form of corporal punishment. Doan PS: So much for your "formidable research skill"! :-) ..... Well, given that I was not researching or commenting on schools, Mr. Doan is either very much mistaken, or attempting to mislead. If the latter, he has done what he claims he does not do...lie. The truth about CP in Chinese FAMILIES, as per the research...NOT Media reports as he offered above is that in comparison they are low in a survey of six countries, lowest and second lowest on these surveys? "In China, as in other countries, previous generations of parents appear to have used more harsh and power-assertive strategies, including physical discipline (e.g., Ho, 1986), than do parents in the present generation. In contrast to early work, recent studies suggest that harsh parenting is consistently low with Chinese parents (Chang, Lansford, Schwartz, & Farver, 2004; Chang, McBride-Chang, Stewart, & Au, 2003; Chang, Schwartz, Dodge, & McBride-Chang, 2003; Tao, Wang, Wang, & Dong, 1998). Furthermore, although 97% of doctors and nurses surveyed at eight hospitals in Eastern China believed that physical discipline was widely used by Chinese parents, 76% of these respondents indicated that they personally disapproved of using physical discipline (Hesketh, Hong, & Lynch, 2000). Thus, we expected physical discipline to be less normative in China than in Kenya, India, and the Philippines." ...and what did they find related to their expectations when they did the surveys with Chinese families? "As shown in Figure 2, the rank order (from low to high) of how often mothers reported using physical discipline was Thailand, China, the Philippines, Italy, India, and Kenya. Figure 3 shows that the rank order (from low to high) of mothers’ perceptions of how often other parents use physical discipline was China, Thailand, India, the Philippines, Kenya, and Italy. Figure 4 shows that the rank order (from low to high) of children’s perceptions of how often other children’s parents use physical discipline was Thailand, the Philippines, China, India, Kenya, and Italy." China ranks second lowest in reported use, and lowest in perception by mothers of other's use in China. And even the children in China ranked the parents of other children with a second place ranking. My claim about FAMILIES in China stands. Doan may wish to reveal where this information comes from, as I'm sure he knows, and I'll wait for his response. If he does not give the source, I will. But I'll bet the reader, if they've been following along, can figure it out. I have found over the years, that despite Doan's claim of not lying, that indeed he has, as in this instance, 'mislead' by diversion...as in this example above. From my *claim* about *families* to his diverting to a phony rebuttal by using SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS from a media, and then he derides my information clearly stated as observation and opinion, pretends I'm referring to "research," where I have made NO citations, and ends with a personal attack. Interesting, eh? What kind of "debate," is that, I wonder. How much more of this kind of fallacious argument does Doan do? How many years of time do you have to read them? You can keep count. I no longer can, from disabling laughter. chuckle Kane |
#2
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Correction: Spanking and perceptions of frequency in China.
[[[ See my two corrections at *** and **** ]]]
Let's do a history lesson, shall we then? Note the dates please. 13. Doan View profile Hide options Oct 9 2004, 6:25 am Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking From: Doan Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:25:12 -0700 Local: Sat, Oct 9 2004 6:25 am Subject: Kane0 caught lying again High rates of violence among youth- Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author On 8 Oct 2004, kane wrote: - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 01:52:39 GMT, Pangur Ban wrote: Chris C. wrote: Can we dialogue?... Often on this newsgroup we discuss (or should I say fail to discuss) the high rate of youth violence and how it has increased over the decades here in the U.S. (as families move often from structured parenting praxis to permissive or non-parenting practices--See Ryan and Cooper, 2004 for an introductory discussion on the average time spent with our kids). Even if we make comparisons across cultures --our rate of youth violence is much higher than other lesser developed countries with more accepted traditional parenting praxis and family roles. Isn't another factor the breaking of extended families? Well, Ms Pangur, that could be. The breaking down of traditional practices (praxis) can be a factor in the loss of extended family, but I've certainly seen changes in child rearing practices where extended family is NOT disrupted, as in China, more especially Taiwan, which has a thorough mix of traditional and non-traditional practices, generally. The(y) still, regardless of lifestyle, tend to dote on their male child (and not just a little on the females for that matter) and spoil them, in the best sense, of course. Kane comments on spanking in Chinese families ... not about schools as ***Doan tries to argue...the usual putting words in another's mouth, or keyboard as it we Spanking is a much more rare occurance there. Doan responds: LOL! If you're gonna lie, at least be smart about it! Check this out. [[[ I was not lying. I have Chinese relatives and extensive numbers of friend ship, and have lived IN Chinese culture IN Chinese communities. Read on. ]]] China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004 Spanking goes on in schools despite law Taipei, The China Post Staff Corporal punishment, forbidden by the Ministry of Education, goes on in elementary and junior high schools across Taiwan, according to a survey released by the Humanistic Education Foundation yesterday. Altogether 1,311 students in 62 junior high schools and 159 primary schools were polled. Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were reported in nine out of every ten schools surveyed. Altogether 93.5 percent of the schools visited reported corporal punishment, the survey shows. A 70 percent majority of students have been given corporal punishment so far in the current school year. The foundation defines corporal punishment as "punishment that causes physical pain on the body or psychological pain through bodily control." Aside from spanking, forms of corporal punishment as defined by the foundation include a painful posture imposed on students, an increase of schoolwork, labor service, mutual slappings, fining, tagging, shaven heads and ridiculings in public. By far, spanking is the most popular form of corporal punishment, the study indicates. A total of 72 percent of the respondents said they saw teachers spank students. Only 11 percent said they never saw their teachers mete out any corporal punishment. Half of the causes for corporal punishment was disobedience. Other causes include poor schoolwork (35 percent) and group punishment (20 percent). About 14 percent of the respondents said teachers demanded that their parents agree to corporal punishment. One third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they ought to be punished for disobedience. Another 29 percent said they were afraid of corporal punishment. Still another 20 percent want to avenge themselves on the teachers. Only 13 percent believe teachers punished them to give vent to their frustration. Asked if they would spank their students when they became teachers, 65 percent of the respondents replied they would. "That indicates," a foundation spokesman said, "they would continue the tradition of not sparing the rod to spoil the child." He urged the Ministry of Education to outlaw corporal punishment. "We need legislation to outlaw it once and for all," he said. The Ministry of Education said the law on teaching now requires school authorities to deal with corporal punishment. "The schools, parents and students have to agree on a set of disciplinary regulations, which should be satisfactory to all," said Ho Chin-tsai, a Ministry of Education student discipline specialist. But, Ho added, the Ministry of Education is opposed to any form of corporal punishment. Doan PS: So much for your "formidable research skill"! :-) ..... Well, given that I was not researching or commenting on schools, Mr. Doan is either very much mistaken, or attempting to mislead. If the latter, he has done what he claims he does not do...lie. The truth about CP in Chinese FAMILIES, as per the research...NOT Media reports as he offered above is that in comparison they are low in a survey of six countries, lowest and second lowest on these surveys? "In China, as in other countries, previous generations of parents appear to have used more harsh and power-assertive strategies, including physical discipline (e.g., Ho, 1986), than do parents in the present generation. In contrast to early work, recent studies suggest that harsh parenting is consistently low with Chinese parents (Chang, Lansford, Schwartz, & Farver, 2004; Chang, McBride-Chang, Stewart, & Au, 2003; Chang, Schwartz, Dodge, & McBride-Chang, 2003; Tao, Wang, Wang, & Dong, 1998). Furthermore, although 97% of doctors and nurses surveyed at eight hospitals in Eastern China believed that physical discipline was widely used by Chinese parents, 76% of these respondents indicated that they personally disapproved of using physical discipline (Hesketh, Hong, & Lynch, 2000). Thus, we expected physical discipline to be less normative in China than in Kenya, India, and the Philippines." ...and what did they find related to their expectations when they did the surveys with Chinese families? "As shown in Figure 2, the rank order (from low to high) of how often mothers reported using physical discipline was Thailand, China, the Philippines, Italy, India, and Kenya. Figure 3 shows that the rank order (from low to high) of mothers’ perceptions of how often other parents use physical discipline was China, Thailand, India, the Philippines, Kenya, and Italy. Figure 4 shows that the rank order (from low to high) of children’s perceptions of how often other children’s parents use physical discipline was Thailand, the Philippines, China, India, Kenya, and Italy." China ranks second lowest in reported use, and lowest in perception by mothers of other's use in China. And even the children in China ranked the parents of other children with a **** third place ranking. My claim about FAMILIES in China stands. Doan may wish to reveal where this information comes from, as I'm sure he knows, and I'll wait for his response. If he does not give the source, I will. But I'll bet the reader, if they've been following along, can figure it out. I have found over the years, that despite Doan's claim of not lying, that indeed he has, as in this instance, 'mislead' by diversion...as in this example above. From my *claim* about *families* to his diverting to a phony rebuttal by using SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS from a media, and then he derides my information clearly stated as observation and opinion, pretends I'm referring to "research," where I have made NO citations, and ends with a personal attack. Interesting, eh? What kind of "debate," is that, I wonder. How much more of this kind of fallacious argument does Doan do? How many years of time do you have to read them? You can keep count. I no longer can, from disabling laughter. chuckle Kane |
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