More respectful law abiding spanked children?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.

Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either, and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.

What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

You could take a story about some lime jello and make it a no-spank victory
in your pitiful meager mind.

What a dinkhead.


Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either, and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

Jim Richardson wrote:
"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.


What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

I don't know. Probably pretty high, but then I wasn't referring to
distrubed nutters. I'd be referring to credentials professionals. In
fact I posted one here just today, in fact about an hour ago. He
addressed the true nutter, Dr. Dobson.

You could take a story about some lime jello and make it a no-spank victory
in your pitiful meager mind.

I can't think how. I leave such things as that, like "Cargo Cult" claims
that apply far more to spankers than nonspankers, to others with
pitifully meager minds.

Oh, and that cops "discipline" with nightsticks etc. like parents
"spank." Now there's an equation for you.

What a dinkhead.

Aw, now why'd you have to go and ruin a perfect score?

I thought for sure you were going to continue a debate..weakly of
course, but bravely..and there you go diving out the ad hom bolthole.


Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either,

Have you known many non-spanking parents? Did you find many racists
among them teaching their children racism?


and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines



Well I see you hadn't anything more to say.

Given that you offered nothing new or in rebuttal successfully can we
hope that at least you had a catharsis?

0:-


--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

"Pohaku Kane" wrote in message
...
Jim Richardson wrote:
"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.


What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

I don't know. Probably pretty high, but then I wasn't referring to
distrubed nutters. I'd be referring to credentials professionals. In fact
I posted one here just today, in fact about an hour ago. He addressed the
true nutter, Dr. Dobson.

Prove it.

Not only are you verbally abusive, but you intentionally misrepresent the
facts.

There isn't one study that links spanking with criminals and rasists. Your
constant misrepresentation in the face of the truth, means you're nothing
more than an unethical fool with a personal ax to grind.

What a dinkhead.


You could take a story about some lime jello and make it a no-spank
victory in your pitiful meager mind.

I can't think how. I leave such things as that, like "Cargo Cult" claims
that apply far more to spankers than nonspankers, to others with pitifully
meager minds.

Oh, and that cops "discipline" with nightsticks etc. like parents "spank."
Now there's an equation for you.

What a dinkhead.

Aw, now why'd you have to go and ruin a perfect score?

I thought for sure you were going to continue a debate..weakly of course,
but bravely..and there you go diving out the ad hom bolthole.


Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either,

Have you known many non-spanking parents? Did you find many racists among
them teaching their children racism?


and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines



Well I see you hadn't anything more to say.

Given that you offered nothing new or in rebuttal successfully can we hope
that at least you had a catharsis?

0:-


--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

Jim Richardson wrote:
"Pohaku Kane" wrote in message
...
Jim Richardson wrote:
"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.


What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

I don't know. Probably pretty high, but then I wasn't referring to
distrubed nutters. I'd be referring to credentials professionals. In fact
I posted one here just today, in fact about an hour ago. He addressed the
true nutter, Dr. Dobson.

Prove it.

Prove what?

That I posted a piece about the nutter Dr. Dobson? No, you can search
for it easily.

Prove that spanking children cause them to be criminals and racists?

The data has been in a long time on the criminal aspect.

As for the racist question. I didn't claim that spanking caused that. I
merely pointed out that these particular racists -- if that's what the
killing and beatings amount to -- had a high likelihood of being
spanked. A 90% change I believe the claims are by YOUR side.

Then I pointed out that I've known a great many families that do not
spank their children and coincidentially not one of them is a racist
family.

Those are correlations, not causations, and though it would be nice to
show causation, that's pretty much impossible in social science for
ethical reasons. I could not control my experiments by creating a
deliberately racist spanked child.

I leave the field work up to you folks.

Know any racist spankers? I know lots of them. Almost to the point I'd
be tempted to claim they seem to go together.....racism and brutal
child rearing methods, that is.

Not only are you verbally abusive, but you intentionally misrepresent the
facts.

I am verbally abusive. Kind of comes of dealing with violent brutes
like you, a confessed child beater.

As for facts; please list those you believe I've misrepresented and
explain how I've done that. Opinions, which I'm usually quite willing
to admit I have and don't hide them, are not misrepresentations.

Here's a misrepresentation.

"Spanking is not hitting."

It is a physical impossibility to spank without hitting. It IS possible
to hit without spanking. For instance a sock to the head would not be
called spanking. Striking a child's butt with one's hand or other
object is, besides "spanking" also done by hitting.

When you spank you have hit your child.

The same action on an adult is assault.

Here's another misrepresentation.

"It's not assault because the law allows it."

Assualt is not just a legal term. It has other non-legal definitions.
One can hear it in other professions, such as medicine. A bacteria may
be described as assualting one or more bodily systems.

I consider you a bacteria.

There isn't one study that links spanking with criminals and rasists.

I doubt one's been done on racists. I'll check for you, since you are
an unethical fool that constantly misrepresents the truth and facts and
are doubtless, caused by your childhoood spankings, too lazy and
disturbed to actually do reseach before making outlandish accusations
as emotion base as your reasons to rationalise assaulting a child and
calling it, "spanking with love."

But I beg to differ with you on criminals.

......well, I'm back....

I didn't find anything specific on racism = spanking doing a cursory
search, but you can be sure you've excited my interest.

I'd not thought to seek this before....and you'll note I never said
spanking causes racism. I merely pointed out that I knew a lot of
racists that spank, and the odds are the boys in the beating death case
in Florida had a 90% chance of being spanked and their victims were
black or ethnic. The dead man was black.

It remains to be seen if my speculation is true or not.

And unlike you, who claims I'm not factual, please note that I don't
come to conclusions withhout a great deal of factual information, which
I'M SEEKING AND YOU ARE NOT.

Now, let's move on to the "criminal -- spanking" connection if there is
one smile and take a look.

Now here's one of the preemminent researchers in this field of social
science speciality.
AND most often cited by SPANKERS as proof they are not damaging their
children.

http://www.ovpr.uga.edu/creativerese...onsRonaldL.htm
Whew! Is this guy a trusted and respected researcher. $26 million in
grants to study such issues, one of which is behavioral outcomes based
on child rearing practices.

Oh dear, you are not going to like that you provoked me on this one,
Jimminy.

Your
constant misrepresentation in the face of the truth, means you're nothing
more than an unethical fool with a personal ax to grind.

Well, moving right along, let's see how far off the mark I am on the
question of crime and spanking.

Let us make clear some things you folks like to confuse, if at all
possible.

One: we do not say that spanking ALWAYS produces provable anti social
behavioral outcomes. ... We do say that there is a higher risk of such
outcomes for the entire demographic of spanked children. Some will and
some won't, but in the NON spanked families anti social behavior is a
rarity. Problem there is there is no way to collect a set of
non-spanked children to examine with scientific diligence. We're
working on it. 0:-

Two: "spanking" is a highly subjective term. We understand that YOU
want to make it "gentle" spanking, etc. blah blah blah, but the truth
is there is a great number of spankers that don't call it that unless
it stings and hurts and even bruises or leaves marks, and most
assuredly you and they want there to be a negative psychological impact
"emotional pain" on the child. Or am I mistaken?

With these things in mind, let's take a peek, shall we?

In reading the study report by Simons et al, it seems to boil down to a
finding that with higher levels of warmth and nurturing children were
not seen to have adverse outcomes from spanking.

While this plays nicely into the dream world of most spankers, those
that believe they are warm and nurturing, it does not account for the
vast number of spankers that are neither warm nor nurturing toward
their children. They will cost YOU, who I presume would like to count
yourselves among the warm loving nurturing parents that spank, because
it is they the law, when it inevitably comes, will be addressing.

In fact, such laws already exist. And I note aside that some past
posters to this newsgroup are in opposition to such laws and have a
fuzzy line themselves between abuse and "spanking."

The Simons study, an apologia for spanking by parents in opposition to
the reseachers that find correlations between spanking and antisocial
behavior still say this (and note the specific wording about
"hitting.":

""We are sympathetic to concerns over the use of corporal punishment.
WE HAVE MORAL RESERVATIONS (emphasis mine) about parents hitting their
children and believe that parents should strive to use less coercive
forms of punishment. "

Now this is the report so often cited by the pro spank folks, Jimminy,
to defend the practice of spanking, yet the entire premise of it being
okay to spank with low risk of harm hangs on one principle: "For both
samples, level of parental warmth/control ... was the strongest
predictor of adolescent conduct problems."

Now Jimminy, let's be honest. Parents do not appear to the child, or to
an observer, as consistently warm and supportive, especially when it
comes to the moment of spanking.

I therefor, at the risk of being accused via your "verbal attack" of
"constant misrepresentation in the face of the truth, means you're
[[meaning me]] nothing more than an unethical fool with a personal ax
to grind" do tentatively and meekly submit that THE RISK IT TOO HIGH.

And, further, we who are non-spanking advocates point out that removing
the spanking factor entirely would tend to bring MORE parents that were
spankers and now bereft of that "tool" to consider more of that warmth
and support these researchers make the crux of good parenting.

http://info.sinica.edu.tw/english/wu...20behavior.pdf

Now you were saying about my misrepresentation?


What a dinkhead.

Between the two of us, and for that matter, between the two camps
involved here, which has proffered the most research, Jimminy?

Hell, we even post studies that are used by YOU folks.

A quick read of the archives will show you that against repeated
babblings about "history" and "the bible tells me so" and "my parents
did it to me and ...cuu coo cuu coo..." none of which are actually
science, we have tried to offer the best currently available in the way
of social science research.

There is no other kind of research in this field, as coming from a
mechanical and medical research direction would require unethical
experimentation, though I've seen one doctor, prospank, cited here that
demanded that that would be the only acceptable methodology.

You folks are sure dimwits on this issue.


You could take a story about some lime jello and make it a no-spank
victory in your pitiful meager mind.

I can't think how. I leave such things as that, like "Cargo Cult" claims
that apply far more to spankers than nonspankers, to others with pitifully
meager minds.

Oh, and that cops "discipline" with nightsticks etc. like parents "spank."
Now there's an equation for you.

What a dinkhead.

I do believe, and I admit to the charge, that you find me verbally
abusive. I presume that includes name calling. Do you wish to leave
your name calling of me on record, or withdraw the names formally?

It would return to you, or you think it would, your morally higher
ground position, no?

You might want to keep the name calling priv though, as you don't have
much else going for you, as I note in the failure to answer many
important questions challenging the spanker mindset and rationale such
as the one that follows:

....snipping my deliberate insults.........(ever think they might be
traps to let you embarass yourselves more by taking and using as
dodges?)..............

Kane resumes:
Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either,

Have you known many non-spanking parents? Did you find many racists among
them teaching their children racism?

No answer to this critical question you have challenged ME on. And I at
least tried to find some connections..and will continue as promised.

How about you make an effort to find some non-spankers that teach
vicious racism to their children like I suspect the boys in the news
story were taught by their very likely spanking parents, like many such
that I have known.


and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines



Well I see you hadn't anything more to say.

Given that you offered nothing new or in rebuttal successfully can we hope
that at least you had a catharsis?

0:-


--
--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

Isn't Dobson a nut case?

Ignoranus Kane0 said:
"It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching."

Doan said:
So spanking is now part of a "non-violent gentle nature"???

Ignoranus Kane0 replied:
"It was in this instance. It has been in research provided by you in the
past."


On 16 Jan 2006, Kane wrote:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

You meant a "non-violent gentle nature"? ;-0

Doan

You have to excuse the "never-spanked" Kane0. He is just trying to
fit that square peg into the round hole. ;-) In this newsgroupg,
he is now known as the Ignoranus Kane0. ;-0

Doan


On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Jim Richardson wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.

What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

You could take a story about some lime jello and make it a no-spank victory
in your pitiful meager mind.

What a dinkhead.


Nonspanking parents, to my own knowledge tend not to teach their
children racism either, and this is probably going to turn out to be a
racist attack:

"Plantation teens surrender in murder, beating rampage against homeless

By Bill Hirschman & Brian Haas
Staff Writers
Posted January 16 2006

Two witnesses saw the brutal slaying of a homeless man in a Fort
Lauderdale park, an arrest report released Sunday reveals.

The two watched as Brian Hooks and Thomas Daugherty walked up to Norris
Gaynor on Thursday morning, baseball bats in hand, according to Fort
Lauderdale police. Moments later, the witnesses saw Daugherty smash his
bat into Gaynor's chest and head, the report says, leaving him
unconscious and dying on the bench he chose as his bed. ... "

More at the link:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

On 17 Jan 2006, 0;- wrote:


Jim Richardson wrote:
"Pohaku Kane" wrote in message
...
Jim Richardson wrote:
"Kane" wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

What are the odds these boys, young men now, where not spanked as
children?

About 1 in ten.


What are the chances of some disturbed nutter suggesting that spanking
children cause them to be criminals and rasists.

I don't know. Probably pretty high, but then I wasn't referring to
distrubed nutters. I'd be referring to credentials professionals. In fact
I posted one here just today, in fact about an hour ago. He addressed the
true nutter, Dr. Dobson.

Prove it.

Prove what?

That I posted a piece about the nutter Dr. Dobson? No, you can search
for it easily.

Prove that spanking children cause them to be criminals and racists?

The data has been in a long time on the criminal aspect.

As for the racist question. I didn't claim that spanking caused that. I
merely pointed out that these particular racists -- if that's what the
killing and beatings amount to -- had a high likelihood of being
spanked. A 90% change I believe the claims are by YOUR side.

Then I pointed out that I've known a great many families that do not
spank their children and coincidentially not one of them is a racist
family.

Those are correlations, not causations, and though it would be nice to
show causation, that's pretty much impossible in social science for
ethical reasons. I could not control my experiments by creating a
deliberately racist spanked child.

I leave the field work up to you folks.

That's right. Ignoranus Kane0 did his homework, using his "formidable
research skill". Please tell us about the Hutterites again. ;-)

Ignoranus Kane0 said:
"It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching."

Doan said:
So spanking is now part of a "non-violent gentle nature"???

Ignoranus Kane0 replied:
"It was in this instance. It has been in research provided by you in the
past."

LOL!

Know any racist spankers? I know lots of them. Almost to the point I'd
be tempted to claim they seem to go together.....racism and brutal
child rearing methods, that is.

Not only are you verbally abusive, but you intentionally misrepresent the
facts.

I am verbally abusive. Kind of comes of dealing with violent brutes
like you, a confessed child beater.

As for facts; please list those you believe I've misrepresented and
explain how I've done that. Opinions, which I'm usually quite willing
to admit I have and don't hide them, are not misrepresentations.

Here's a misrepresentation.

"Spanking is not hitting."

It is a physical impossibility to spank without hitting. It IS possible
to hit without spanking. For instance a sock to the head would not be
called spanking. Striking a child's butt with one's hand or other
object is, besides "spanking" also done by hitting.

When you spank you have hit your child.

And Ignoranus Kane0 has hit his kid!

Did you know the "line" then, Ignoranus Kane0? ;-)

Doan