COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, so here's the story. (a bit long - sorry)

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago. At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding as she was losing too much
weight. Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again. Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed. We practically have to cram a bottle or finger feeding into her
mouth. I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.

I have seen *4* lactation consultants in the hospital (there for five
days) and 2 lactation consultants on an outpatient basis after that.
I cannot for the life of me get this child to BF. No matter what I
do. In fact, the last LC - GAVE ME A BOTTLE! Even she was like "um,
here's a bottle. I don't hold out a ton of hope for you".

I'm ready to SLAP the next person who sits there and berates me when
they find out I'm pumping and can't get her on the breast. I'm
trying!! Morning, noon and night, I am trying. I try at least four
times a day if not more and yesterday I got her one once but haven't
been able to since then and I've tried six times. Even my doctor said
most women would have thrown in the towel by now and I've tried it all
and not to feel guilty if I give her formula but I really, really want
this to work.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.

In article ,
(denise) wrote:

Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do???

I'm sorry you're so frustrated, Denise -- this sounds like a crappy
situation. I know other people here have been in similar straits and
I'm sure they'll be along soon... I just wanted to give you a pat on
the back until they show up.

--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle

I check this e-mail account infrequently

"denise" wrote in message
...

Hi Denise,

I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions that I'm sure you've been
asked at least six times already, but your info will be helpful.

Also, I'm going to ask the UNthinkable: Can you post your answers without
trimming?

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago.

What type of drugs did you use through your labour? How far into your labour
were they administered? (As in hours into your labour AND how dilated you
were if you know.)

What type of drugs did you use for the epidural and when were they
administered?

At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding

What did you finger feed her and did you ever give her a bottle? If you did
give her a bottle, which brand nipple was it?

as she was losing too much
weight.

How much weight did she lose? Specifically, how much was she at birth and
how far did she drop by day 3? (I need to determine what percentage of her
weight she lost.)

Also, what was your due date compared to when you gave birth? Was she a
full-term baby?

How many times did you put her to the breast in a day?

Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

That's still within normal parameters. :-)

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again.

What did she do when you tried to latch her? Did she scream and arch her
back? Did she make snorfling noises and whip her head back and forth in
frustration? Did she just lay there and do nothing?

Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed.

Noted.

We practically have to cram a bottle or finger feeding into her
mouth.

When you say finger feeding, do you mean a finger or do you mean a Haberman
bottle? How does she respond before you cram? How does she respond to having
food crammed in?

I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.

I bet.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.

Holy crow you've tried a LOT. In fact, my spider sense is that you've been
given too many things to try and not enough consistency. Let's see if we can
get rid of a whole pile of the stuff and get the babe back on your breast so
you can ditch the pump.

Me, I've never seen a suicidal newborn who prefers self-imposed death by
starvation, so I hold out LOADS of hope. You've come a long way already.


--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:31:27 GMT, "Charlotte M."
wrote:


"denise" wrote in message
...

Hi Denise,

I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions that I'm sure you've been
asked at least six times already, but your info will be helpful.

Also, I'm going to ask the UNthinkable: Can you post your answers without
trimming?

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago.

What type of drugs did you use through your labour? How far into your labour
were they administered? (As in hours into your labour AND how dilated you
were if you know.)

Water broke at 5:30 - at noon, only diated 1cm so they started pitocin
slowly. By 4, they were upping it, by 7, they were adding fentynol (?)
and kept upping the pitocin for what seems like every 30 minutes until
midnight even though I was 10 cm by 8pm. Finally had the csection at
2am.

What type of drugs did you use for the epidural and when were they
administered?

Had an epidural around 5pm I think. It was a "light" epidural. I
have no idea what drugs they used.

What did you finger feed her and did you ever give her a bottle? If you did
give her a bottle, which brand nipple was it?

Gave her a bottle when we came home. Finger feeding just wasn't
cutting it anymore as she was up to almost 2 ounces by day 6. Finger
feeding her my colostrum and supplementing with hospital provided
Nutragimen. Pumping my own milk to bottle feed and occasionally
supplementing with soy-based formula as well. Started out with Dr.
Brown bottles but the lactation consultant told us to switch to Avent.
as she was losing too much
weight.

How much weight did she lose? Specifically, how much was she at birth and
how far did she drop by day 3? (I need to determine what percentage of her
weight she lost.)

Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight. She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.

Also, what was your due date compared to when you gave birth? Was she a
full-term baby?

Gave birth at 37w3days.

How many times did you put her to the breast in a day?
Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.

What did she do when you tried to latch her? Did she scream and arch her
back? Did she make snorfling noises and whip her head back and forth in
frustration? Did she just lay there and do nothing?

She licks, then thrashes and will NOT open her mouth all the way. Then
cries, roots, cries, screams, won't open her mouth - roots the
opposite way, they goes into full ultra-sonic panic mode. Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.

When you say finger feeding, do you mean a finger or do you mean a Haberman
bottle? How does she respond before you cram? How does she respond to having
food crammed in?

Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.

I have been religiously pumping every three hours and could
fall asleep at the drop of a hat, I'm so exhausted.

I bet.

I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.

Holy crow you've tried a LOT. In fact, my spider sense is that you've been
given too many things to try and not enough consistency. Let's see if we can
get rid of a whole pile of the stuff and get the babe back on your breast so
you can ditch the pump.

Me, I've never seen a suicidal newborn who prefers self-imposed death by
starvation, so I hold out LOADS of hope. You've come a long way already.

I don't feel like it.
Thanks for any help.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org

"denise" wrote in message
...

Water broke at 5:30 - at noon, only diated 1cm so they started pitocin
slowly. By 4, they were upping it, by 7, they were adding fentynol (?)
and kept upping the pitocin for what seems like every 30 minutes until
midnight even though I was 10 cm by 8pm. Finally had the csection at
2am.

That's one heck of a birth story.

What I'm looking for in here is whether or not your baby was born doped up
on medical pain relief. From what you've told me, the answer is yes on this.

Part one in unravelling this is that your baby has probably still got a
massive headache from the birth. The drugs take much longer to clear out of
a baby's system than it does yours and this can affect all of your baby's
responses and cues. Besides which, it's plain old hard to think about much
when your apple-sized head hurts.

So, there's clue one. If your baby is still cleaning out the meds, your baby
may be a baby with a crappy suck for a few more weeks.... which is to say
that this MIGHT be a temporary situation. (More below. I'm not done yet.)

Gave her a bottle when we came home.

Alrighty. This is a second important clue. You may also be dealing with a
baby with nipple confusion. So, a dopey baby with a headache and nipple
confusion is what I'm guesstimating so far.

BTW, the reason why I'm asking all this stuff is because I'm shooting in the
dark. You're not sitting in my office where I can see you and see what's
going on. Posting on MKB is a long process that involves both of us sitting
at computers trying to answer crazy questions. In the end, I may be able to
help you with some more options to try... and maybe not. However, if I can
get as much info as possible, I might be able to make some better
guesstimates.

Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight.

This is totally normal. WAY normal. I have another few questions in he
was she diagnosed with jaundice or dehydration?

She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.

HOLY huge weight gain!

Gave birth at 37w3days.

OK. She was slightly undercooked by some standards, but a healthy weight.

Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.

Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

She licks, then thrashes and will NOT open her mouth all the way. Then
cries, roots, cries, screams, won't open her mouth - roots the
opposite way, they goes into full ultra-sonic panic mode.

OK... another question in he what was she suctioned with at birth? Did
you or your spouse see it and can you describe it?

Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.

LOL. That is 100% normal behaviour. In a few weeks, you'll look back on that
and wonder what happened?

Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.

OK. I'm pretty sure I know what is going on. If you can give me some answers
to the questions above, I'm going to make some educated guesses and what
you're dealing with.

The good news is that I think you'll be able to deal with the problems...
and yes, that word was plural. The hard news is that you're going to need
some serious patience AND you will definitely need your partner or someone
to help solve the problem. You can do it alone, but you'll solve it easier
if you have an extra set of hands.

I don't feel like it.

Well, you've last almost twenty days and you've used as many resources as
you could find. This is no small amount of work and you should be very proud
that you have done as much as you have. You're abviously committed to your
baby.

Thanks for any help.

You're welcome. I just hope I can help. :-(
The internet has its limits.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:28:48 GMT, "Charlotte M."
wrote:


Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight.

This is totally normal. WAY normal. I have another few questions in he
was she diagnosed with jaundice or dehydration?

She was jaundice on day 2 but by day four was coming out of it quiet
nicely. No dehydration.

She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.

HOLY huge weight gain!

Gave birth at 37w3days.

OK. She was slightly undercooked by some standards, but a healthy weight.

Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.

Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

Just dang tired! And every time I try, she flays around and hits my
very sore boobs.



OK... another question in he what was she suctioned with at birth? Did
you or your spouse see it and can you describe it?

I believe it was just a plain old blue aspirator. I couldn't tell
because I was being stitched up but it was in the bassinet in our
room.

Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.

LOL. That is 100% normal behaviour. In a few weeks, you'll look back on that
and wonder what happened?

Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.

OK. I'm pretty sure I know what is going on. If you can give me some answers
to the questions above, I'm going to make some educated guesses and what
you're dealing with.

The good news is that I think you'll be able to deal with the problems...
and yes, that word was plural. The hard news is that you're going to need
some serious patience AND you will definitely need your partner or someone
to help solve the problem. You can do it alone, but you'll solve it easier
if you have an extra set of hands.

Luckily I have a great DH who's more than willing to help. I'm not
sure I'm willing to do the "let her starve for 24 hours" method just
because she's screaming her head off when she wants to be fed at three
hours. I can't imagine going 24 and it kills me to see her in pain. I
don't have a problem with her crying, it's seeing her looking like
she's in so much pain. We're also worried she, like her dad, is
lactose intolerant because she's not reacting wonderfully to breast
milk lately.
My DH is highly lactose intolerant and also allergic to soy!
Hopefully it's not a hereditary thing. After a feeding, it's like she
goes rigid as a board and screams and turns purple. I have cut out all
dairy in my diet and hoping that works soon. Ah the joys eh?
Thanks again for any advice. I am willing to try many of the things
mentioned to me by other folks and do appreciate it.

"denise" wrote in message
...

She was jaundice on day 2 but by day four was coming out of it quiet

Without looking at her chart, I can only guess at what happened here, and I
have to tell you that I'm suspecting a huge amount of your breastfeeding
relationship has been mismanaged. With that statement in mind, I'm going to
make some guesses at a few things that I might be completely wrong on, but I
suspect I'm not far off the mark on a few things.

1. I'm not sure why you had a c-section, but regardless of why you had it, I
suspect it's making some of your normal breastfeeding choices, and habits
you might get on your own, more difficult to access. At the very least, I
know that the c/s will have slowed you down and will involve a bit more work
for finding good positioning.

2. I'm not reading anything about true jaundice going on... as in, as long
as you're not sharing stories about the bili-lights (which may have
happened, I just didn't specifically ask about them), I'm going to assume
that your baby had normal, yes normal, newborn jaundice. True jaundice can
often result in some nasty problems, but if the jaundice was clearing up by
itself in a few days, it was normal jaundice.

3. The fact that she lost nearly 10 percent of her weight was also
completely normal.

4. I did wonder if she had an oral aversion caused by the suctioning, but if
it was just the blue syringe, it was more than likely not too bad. However,
from everything you've said in your pervious posts, I do think that an oral
aversion is quite likely here.

Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

Just dang tired! And every time I try, she flays around and hits my
very sore boobs.

OK. The very sore breasts can be a number of things. Right now, let's see
about getting her to the breast and see what we can do around that.

Luckily I have a great DH who's more than willing to help. I'm not
sure I'm willing to do the "let her starve for 24 hours" method just
because she's screaming her head off when she wants to be fed at three
hours. I can't imagine going 24 and it kills me to see her in pain.

ACK! I can't either... which is why I'm not going to recommend it. I think
that sort of "lesson" makes babies suffer and doesn't teach them much except
that mom and dad can't be trusted. (Better to save that lesson for her
adolescence.)

We're also worried she, like her dad, is
lactose intolerant because she's not reacting wonderfully to breast
milk lately.

OK, now *this* might be an issue. How is she reacting? And more to the
point, what are you giving her instead of breastmilk?

My DH is highly lactose intolerant and also allergic to soy!
Hopefully it's not a hereditary thing. After a feeding, it's like she
goes rigid as a board and screams and turns purple. I have cut out all
dairy in my diet and hoping that works soon.

When you say lactose intolerant, what do you mean exactly? The phrase is
often used in a number of ways to mean a number of things, so if you can
clarify his reactions to lactose, that would be good. (Also, lactose in
what? Do you mean he can eat cheese but not drink milk? Do you mean he can
eat margarine with no whey or is butter ok?)

Ah the joys eh?
Thanks again for any advice. I am willing to try many of the things
mentioned to me by other folks and do appreciate it.

OK. I'm glad to hear that... because I'm now going to make a few
suggestions.

First things first, I have a nagging suspicion that your baby has developed
an oral aversion. I suspect this in part because you have to force feed her
with a bottle or a finger. (Interestingly, the other MKB poster I'm replying
to on " Any experience with late starters?" is going to get a similar
response, so I'm going to ask folks to do some cross-referencing of my
posts.)

Oral aversion is a condition that babies can get if they have ever had any
aggressive manoeuvres done to their mouths. We have more nerve endings in
our mouths than pretty much anywhere else in the body, which means that for
a newborn, any grief or trauma to their mouths makes them behave like rape
victims. (That is not an understatement for anyone who is thinking, "Oh,
come on.")

In a perfect world, a baby is born and then happily finds his or her way to
mom's breast and nuzzles happily and securely. In our world of modern
medicine, a baby is born and it's first oral contact is a suction bulb... or
sometimes a more deep suctioning. This means that the baby's first oral
contact *ever* is an aggressive manoeuvre. For some babies, this is no big
deal and for others, it's a very big deal.

In your case, add to that the fact that your baby had to be finger fed and
bottle fed... and is now fighting both, and you get a fairly dangerous
situation where your baby is not finding pleasure in food and in
breastfeeding. On top of that, I also have a few theories, but without
actually being able to see your baby, they are only theories, so take them
for what they're worth: I suspect the drugs you needed in labour crossed the
placental barrier and your baby is still processing them out.

(Before anyone gets the idea that we're going to spend a post lamenting all
the things that could have been done differently, we're not. However, if I
have a correct grasp of how all of this happened, it's going to be easier to
correct.)

Assuming I'm on the right track, I have some suggestions on how to deal with
things. The main thing here is that this is not a quick fix - it's going to
take days of heart-wrenching work. I seriously suggest you get your partner
involved in this because this will be easier as a two-person job.

First thing is that you need to re-establish mama's breast as being the good
place. My suggestion would be loads of skin to skin contact, which means you
and baby should get naked. (You can keep a diaper on your baby if you
prefer.) Your baby was naked inside you for nine months and thinks your
smell and your body are safe and warm, so re-establish that you are the best
place in the entire world.

After that, I have a string of tips and suggestions:

1. Nurse your baby before she is truly hungry (and wailing) and does not
have a full tummy.

What this really means is that you'll be skin to skin with her and *hoping*
she'll feel like latching. If she doesn't latch on the first twenty tries,
don't sweat it. Just keep trying. The actual actions of what you'll be doing
is holding her in a good position, one where her back and neck are in a
straight line, close to your body, with you holding your breast so that she
can easily grasp it. Tickle her lips with your nipples or brush her cheek
with your nipple so that she'll turn to it.

2. Yes, she will fuss at this process. This is where your partner comes in.
Since you are trying to establish your breast as a good place, having her
wailing at your breast is not going to accomplish this. Before she works up
into a full-fledged howl, pass her over to dad to soothe her. If she's
honestly hungry, then feed her using whatever means you can, but if she's
not hungry, just freaked out, have dad soothe her and pass her back to you
when she's calmed down. Once she's calmed down, try step one again.

3. Nurse her in a dark/dimly lit room. Bright lights may make her feel
overwhelmed or at the very least, may make her close her eyes to shut out
the light... which may make her fall asleep.

4. Try this process when your baby is a bit drowsy. She is more likely to
accept new information like this if she is already in a relaxed state.

5. Keep your baby close to you at all times. She needs to get to know your
smell really does mean safe, secure feelings. A GREAT way to do this is get
both of you naked and climb into bed together. (You can still use the diaper
on her.) If you feel like you want to get up and go for a walk, use a sling
or carry her in your arms. And, in case you're wondering, this is your job,
not dad's. He doesn't have the goods that you do. (Work on bonding tips with
dad later when this crisis has passed.)

6. Co-sleep. This is NOT a time to try sleep training or worry that you'll
never get your baby out of your bed.

7. If your baby is not opening her mouth well, show her what you want from
her. Move into her visual range (about 12 inches from her eyes) and open
your mouth wide and stick your tongue as far down your chin as you can. Tell
her this is what you want her to do and tell her it will help her feel good
while she breastfeeds. Keep doing it. (Yeah, you'll look a little uncool,
but when your baby starts to breastfeed, you'll be glad you managed it.)

8. Be patient and keep trying. Lactation consultants have a main rule: Feed
the baby. While the goal is to get her to breastfeed, the goal is not to see
how long she can go between meals without dehydrating. Since this process of
lying around naked with your baby and tickling her lips or brushing her
cheek with your breast is not going to be a quick solution, be prepared to
feed her using other methods. Try to be as gentle as possible because
remember that you're also dealing with someone who may feel that her mouth
is not a safe place.

9. Assuming you can get her to latch, or at least come near your breast for
comfort, you may also want to explore a Supplemental Nursing System (SNS).
This is just a small feeding tube that you can tape to your nipple so that
your baby gets food without having to do a lot of work. In the early days,
this may be important. You can get an SNS from a public health nurse
(although you may have to battle to get one), from a lactation clinic, or
from Medela's On-Line store.

Hang in there! This isn't an easy road to follow.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org

denise wrote:

Gave birth by csection (after a 20 hour labor - ugh!!) 19 days ago. At
first, DD was a great nurser but by day three when my milk wasn't
coming in, we had to go to finger feeding as she was losing too much
weight. Took me almost 8 days for my milk to come in.

After that, we could never get her to latch on much again. Not only
can we not get her to latch on, we can't get her to open her mouth to
feed.

I hear you, Denise.
I'm afraid I can't help too much with getting your little one on to the
breast, but I'm sure others here will have ideas to try. Luke and I went
through a similar start - complete refusal/inability to latch from the
beginning (I had an abundant supply, but still no dice). We had a couple
of other issues contributing to the difficulty - nothing that should
have been a deal-breaker, but it all added up to no latch despite good
LCs, skin-skin time, mucking around with nipple shields, finger feeding,
re-admission for intensive LC input, etc. I only came to terms with the
possibility that he might never latch at around the four to five month
mark, and I still offer.

I ended up exclusively pumping, and am still going strong at nearly ten
months. It was VERY difficult at first, but it got much easier in a
practical sense as time went on. If you end up pumping for a while, I'm
happy to answer any questions. Top two tips - rent a good hospital-grade
double pump (I use the Medela Symphony), and rig up or buy a hands-free
pumping bra.

A wonderful and supportive partner helps a lot, too.

Lara

"denise" wrote in message
...
OK, so here's the story. (a bit long - sorry)

snip I'm so tired of pumping, I'm crying all the time trying to get her to
bf and nothing we do works. We've tried it all - nipple shields,
feeding her a bit at first to calm her down, finger feeding, massage,
letting her get really hungry, *6* lactations consultants, books,
magazines, internet sites for advice - you name it, we've tried it. I
don't want to give up but I'm at my wit's end. Has anyone been in
this place and what the hell do I do??? I can't pump like this
forever and my breasts are ready to fall off.

Have you tried this...

1. Switch to cup feeds (small cup feeder--something she can't suck on)
2. No pacifiers, no breast, no NOTHING to suck on for 24 hours. Including
your finger. She is NOT going to like this, but the point is to tap into her
NEED to suck.
3. Quit trying to latch her on for about 24 hours. If necessary, quit trying
to latch her on for about 2 days. It's an emotionally loaded battle right
now and you have to quit fighting for a few days to give her a chance to get
out of "defense" mode. It sounds to me like she's caught up in a pattern of
fighting feeds. The trick is to break the cycle and sometimes,
chinese-finger-trap-style, you have to quit fighting in order to get out of
the trap.
4. Feed her as often as she wants to eat, but only from a cup or
spoon--nothing she can suck on.
5. Encourage her to open her mouth wide--the "big o" game (you make a big
wide open mouth, she may imitate it), just as a game, separate from feeding.
If she starts making kissy faces like she desperately wants to suck on
something, bring her up near your breast and if she roots her way onto the
nipple, fine, but don't make a big deal about it if she does or doesn't.
6. When she's gone about 24 hours without any of her usual suckies (finger,
whatever), try this:

a) With your nipple or your finger (finger if she fights being at the
breast, nipple if she's okay being up to your breast), tickle her lip. If
she opens wide, she can suck. If she doesn't, don't force the issue and
don't let her nibble her way on. You're asking permission to put something
in her mouth and she's giving it or not.

b) Watch her. Whenever she opens her mouth wide, smile and say "yes! Open!"
Even if you're not trying to feed her. When she opens her mouth wide, tickle
her cheek and smile. If she starts opening her mouth wide and turning toward
your finger you're halfway there. Let her latch on to your finger or nipple
if she manages to do it herself, but don't push it.

c) Do not push anything into her mouth, period. That's the point of the cup
feeding (the cap that goes over a bottle nipple works well, btw...), to get
nutrition into her without forcing things into her mouth. If she reaches for
something or tries to latch, that's different. But it has to be from her.
Use a little milk syringe and drip it just between her lips if you have to,
but don't push anything larger than the very tip of that syringe into her
mouth.

After the first 24 hours of no-bottle/no-finger feed, I would recommend
getting in bed with her and staying topless. Keep her skin-to-skin as much
as possible. Don't get up except to pee--you'll need someone to help you out
with meals, diaper changes, washing the pump... I would keep her
skin-to-skin with you near your breasts for the next two days. Not "at the
breast", just within easy reach, skin-to-skin.

The underlying strategy here is this:

1. Stop the battle, break the negative "fight to feed, fight to latch, fight
to get mouth open" pattern.

2. Work on getting more positive associations with food, being skin-to-skin.
Do as much as possible to "unload" the emotional side of things.

3. Tap into her biological NEED to suck. Often, by both quitting the battle
and not offering "suckables" for a time, baby's need to suck will overwhelm
the "battle" pattern. Chances are the first few times you manage to get her
latched on will be when she's drowsy and maybe not particularly hungry, just
playing.

Several things stand out for me he

1. She has latched on successfully, both at birth and once recently. This
means she can, she just WON'T right now. It may well be that you have to go
for a week with no attempts at latch on and no finger feeds (cup instead) to
get to the point of her actually asking to suck on anything.

2. You've been doing an incredible job at being persistant and doing
everything within your power to make this work. Babies aren't "supposed" to
fight breastfeeding--it's really NOT your fault. The fact that you are still
pumping, still trying, still working very hard at making this work is great.

Now here's the other side. She might not latch on and nurse "as usual". It
just might not happen. So you may have a choice coming up of continuing to
pump or not continuing to pump. What would make pumping easier for you? What
makes it harder now? What kind of pump are you using?

Jenrose

"Jenrose" wrote

snipped

I'm coming late to this but I want to echo everything that Jen has said (so
much so that I'm saving her post for future reference!). My DD was
hospitalised for latch retraining at 8 weeks - the staff there used exactly
the same method. As long as the baby is getting food (and the cup is a very
good way to go about it), you can take weeks to work on the latch.

My DD realised very quickly that she was only going to get to suck if she
took the breast properly and is still nursing at 13 months.

2. You've been doing an incredible job at being persistant and doing
everything within your power to make this work. Babies aren't "supposed"
to
fight breastfeeding--it's really NOT your fault. The fact that you are
still
pumping, still trying, still working very hard at making this work is
great.

I left this bit in because you have to keep telling yourself that you're NOT
failing. I cried buckets, in front of doctors, nurses, dieticians etc
because I thought I was to blame. But the best place for support is going
to come from home, from your DH and anyone else who's going to be around a
lot. You don't need negative energies around you because that only feeds
the insecurities. If they don't already realise how important this is for
you then you either have to make them understand or ask them to leave.

Jean

--
"And he said:
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of
Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, and
though they are with you, yet they belong not to you." Khalil Gibran

Return address is unread. Replies to firstnamelastname @eircom.net.