COMPLETLY at the end of my rope!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:28:48 GMT, "Charlotte M."
wrote:


Don't know how much she lost - they just told me she was close to
losing 10% of her weight.

This is totally normal. WAY normal. I have another few questions in he
was she diagnosed with jaundice or dehydration?

She was jaundice on day 2 but by day four was coming out of it quiet
nicely. No dehydration.

She was 6 lbs 8 oz at births. At two week
check up though she was up to 7lbs 4 oz.

HOLY huge weight gain!

Gave birth at 37w3days.

OK. She was slightly undercooked by some standards, but a healthy weight.

Can't count!!! Probably every time at first and then 3-4 times a day
towards day 6.

Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

Just dang tired! And every time I try, she flays around and hits my
very sore boobs.



OK... another question in he what was she suctioned with at birth? Did
you or your spouse see it and can you describe it?

I believe it was just a plain old blue aspirator. I couldn't tell
because I was being stitched up but it was in the bassinet in our
room.

Rarely does
she just lie there unless she's asleep and when she's asleep, we can't
get her to move for all the tea in China.

LOL. That is 100% normal behaviour. In a few weeks, you'll look back on that
and wonder what happened?

Finger with a syringe and small tube that the LC gave us. She whips
her head back and forth even as we're jamming the bottle in. Sometimes
she only grabs the tip.

OK. I'm pretty sure I know what is going on. If you can give me some answers
to the questions above, I'm going to make some educated guesses and what
you're dealing with.

The good news is that I think you'll be able to deal with the problems...
and yes, that word was plural. The hard news is that you're going to need
some serious patience AND you will definitely need your partner or someone
to help solve the problem. You can do it alone, but you'll solve it easier
if you have an extra set of hands.

Luckily I have a great DH who's more than willing to help. I'm not
sure I'm willing to do the "let her starve for 24 hours" method just
because she's screaming her head off when she wants to be fed at three
hours. I can't imagine going 24 and it kills me to see her in pain. I
don't have a problem with her crying, it's seeing her looking like
she's in so much pain. We're also worried she, like her dad, is
lactose intolerant because she's not reacting wonderfully to breast
milk lately.
My DH is highly lactose intolerant and also allergic to soy!
Hopefully it's not a hereditary thing. After a feeding, it's like she
goes rigid as a board and screams and turns purple. I have cut out all
dairy in my diet and hoping that works soon. Ah the joys eh?
Thanks again for any advice. I am willing to try many of the things
mentioned to me by other folks and do appreciate it.

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:27:27 GMT, "Chotii"
wrote:


"denise" wrote in message
...


Luckily I have a great DH who's more than willing to help. I'm not
sure I'm willing to do the "let her starve for 24 hours" method just
because she's screaming her head off when she wants to be fed at three
hours. I can't imagine going 24 and it kills me to see her in pain. I
don't have a problem with her crying, it's seeing her looking like
she's in so much pain. We're also worried she, like her dad, is
lactose intolerant because she's not reacting wonderfully to breast
milk lately.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Nobody *here* said anything about letting baby starve. Period. Rule number
one is ALWAYS "feed the baby". That said, *if* your baby feels threatened
by things going into her mouth (like a bottle nipple, or your own nipple -
yes, this can happen) then you have to offer the milk from outside, in a
tiny spoon or cup, or dribbled in with a small syringe. But you *do* offer
it. Of course you do.

Ahh-ok, makes sense. Actually I did get her onto one side tonight!!
Had to give her pumped milk to top her off because sge would't take
the other side - but some success!

"denise" wrote in message
...

She was jaundice on day 2 but by day four was coming out of it quiet

Without looking at her chart, I can only guess at what happened here, and I
have to tell you that I'm suspecting a huge amount of your breastfeeding
relationship has been mismanaged. With that statement in mind, I'm going to
make some guesses at a few things that I might be completely wrong on, but I
suspect I'm not far off the mark on a few things.

1. I'm not sure why you had a c-section, but regardless of why you had it, I
suspect it's making some of your normal breastfeeding choices, and habits
you might get on your own, more difficult to access. At the very least, I
know that the c/s will have slowed you down and will involve a bit more work
for finding good positioning.

2. I'm not reading anything about true jaundice going on... as in, as long
as you're not sharing stories about the bili-lights (which may have
happened, I just didn't specifically ask about them), I'm going to assume
that your baby had normal, yes normal, newborn jaundice. True jaundice can
often result in some nasty problems, but if the jaundice was clearing up by
itself in a few days, it was normal jaundice.

3. The fact that she lost nearly 10 percent of her weight was also
completely normal.

4. I did wonder if she had an oral aversion caused by the suctioning, but if
it was just the blue syringe, it was more than likely not too bad. However,
from everything you've said in your pervious posts, I do think that an oral
aversion is quite likely here.

Did you put her breast less often by day 6 for any particular reason?

Just dang tired! And every time I try, she flays around and hits my
very sore boobs.

OK. The very sore breasts can be a number of things. Right now, let's see
about getting her to the breast and see what we can do around that.

Luckily I have a great DH who's more than willing to help. I'm not
sure I'm willing to do the "let her starve for 24 hours" method just
because she's screaming her head off when she wants to be fed at three
hours. I can't imagine going 24 and it kills me to see her in pain.

ACK! I can't either... which is why I'm not going to recommend it. I think
that sort of "lesson" makes babies suffer and doesn't teach them much except
that mom and dad can't be trusted. (Better to save that lesson for her
adolescence.)

We're also worried she, like her dad, is
lactose intolerant because she's not reacting wonderfully to breast
milk lately.

OK, now *this* might be an issue. How is she reacting? And more to the
point, what are you giving her instead of breastmilk?

My DH is highly lactose intolerant and also allergic to soy!
Hopefully it's not a hereditary thing. After a feeding, it's like she
goes rigid as a board and screams and turns purple. I have cut out all
dairy in my diet and hoping that works soon.

When you say lactose intolerant, what do you mean exactly? The phrase is
often used in a number of ways to mean a number of things, so if you can
clarify his reactions to lactose, that would be good. (Also, lactose in
what? Do you mean he can eat cheese but not drink milk? Do you mean he can
eat margarine with no whey or is butter ok?)

Ah the joys eh?
Thanks again for any advice. I am willing to try many of the things
mentioned to me by other folks and do appreciate it.

OK. I'm glad to hear that... because I'm now going to make a few
suggestions.

First things first, I have a nagging suspicion that your baby has developed
an oral aversion. I suspect this in part because you have to force feed her
with a bottle or a finger. (Interestingly, the other MKB poster I'm replying
to on " Any experience with late starters?" is going to get a similar
response, so I'm going to ask folks to do some cross-referencing of my
posts.)

Oral aversion is a condition that babies can get if they have ever had any
aggressive manoeuvres done to their mouths. We have more nerve endings in
our mouths than pretty much anywhere else in the body, which means that for
a newborn, any grief or trauma to their mouths makes them behave like rape
victims. (That is not an understatement for anyone who is thinking, "Oh,
come on.")

In a perfect world, a baby is born and then happily finds his or her way to
mom's breast and nuzzles happily and securely. In our world of modern
medicine, a baby is born and it's first oral contact is a suction bulb... or
sometimes a more deep suctioning. This means that the baby's first oral
contact *ever* is an aggressive manoeuvre. For some babies, this is no big
deal and for others, it's a very big deal.

In your case, add to that the fact that your baby had to be finger fed and
bottle fed... and is now fighting both, and you get a fairly dangerous
situation where your baby is not finding pleasure in food and in
breastfeeding. On top of that, I also have a few theories, but without
actually being able to see your baby, they are only theories, so take them
for what they're worth: I suspect the drugs you needed in labour crossed the
placental barrier and your baby is still processing them out.

(Before anyone gets the idea that we're going to spend a post lamenting all
the things that could have been done differently, we're not. However, if I
have a correct grasp of how all of this happened, it's going to be easier to
correct.)

Assuming I'm on the right track, I have some suggestions on how to deal with
things. The main thing here is that this is not a quick fix - it's going to
take days of heart-wrenching work. I seriously suggest you get your partner
involved in this because this will be easier as a two-person job.

First thing is that you need to re-establish mama's breast as being the good
place. My suggestion would be loads of skin to skin contact, which means you
and baby should get naked. (You can keep a diaper on your baby if you
prefer.) Your baby was naked inside you for nine months and thinks your
smell and your body are safe and warm, so re-establish that you are the best
place in the entire world.

After that, I have a string of tips and suggestions:

1. Nurse your baby before she is truly hungry (and wailing) and does not
have a full tummy.

What this really means is that you'll be skin to skin with her and *hoping*
she'll feel like latching. If she doesn't latch on the first twenty tries,
don't sweat it. Just keep trying. The actual actions of what you'll be doing
is holding her in a good position, one where her back and neck are in a
straight line, close to your body, with you holding your breast so that she
can easily grasp it. Tickle her lips with your nipples or brush her cheek
with your nipple so that she'll turn to it.

2. Yes, she will fuss at this process. This is where your partner comes in.
Since you are trying to establish your breast as a good place, having her
wailing at your breast is not going to accomplish this. Before she works up
into a full-fledged howl, pass her over to dad to soothe her. If she's
honestly hungry, then feed her using whatever means you can, but if she's
not hungry, just freaked out, have dad soothe her and pass her back to you
when she's calmed down. Once she's calmed down, try step one again.

3. Nurse her in a dark/dimly lit room. Bright lights may make her feel
overwhelmed or at the very least, may make her close her eyes to shut out
the light... which may make her fall asleep.

4. Try this process when your baby is a bit drowsy. She is more likely to
accept new information like this if she is already in a relaxed state.

5. Keep your baby close to you at all times. She needs to get to know your
smell really does mean safe, secure feelings. A GREAT way to do this is get
both of you naked and climb into bed together. (You can still use the diaper
on her.) If you feel like you want to get up and go for a walk, use a sling
or carry her in your arms. And, in case you're wondering, this is your job,
not dad's. He doesn't have the goods that you do. (Work on bonding tips with
dad later when this crisis has passed.)

6. Co-sleep. This is NOT a time to try sleep training or worry that you'll
never get your baby out of your bed.

7. If your baby is not opening her mouth well, show her what you want from
her. Move into her visual range (about 12 inches from her eyes) and open
your mouth wide and stick your tongue as far down your chin as you can. Tell
her this is what you want her to do and tell her it will help her feel good
while she breastfeeds. Keep doing it. (Yeah, you'll look a little uncool,
but when your baby starts to breastfeed, you'll be glad you managed it.)

8. Be patient and keep trying. Lactation consultants have a main rule: Feed
the baby. While the goal is to get her to breastfeed, the goal is not to see
how long she can go between meals without dehydrating. Since this process of
lying around naked with your baby and tickling her lips or brushing her
cheek with your breast is not going to be a quick solution, be prepared to
feed her using other methods. Try to be as gentle as possible because
remember that you're also dealing with someone who may feel that her mouth
is not a safe place.

9. Assuming you can get her to latch, or at least come near your breast for
comfort, you may also want to explore a Supplemental Nursing System (SNS).
This is just a small feeding tube that you can tape to your nipple so that
your baby gets food without having to do a lot of work. In the early days,
this may be important. You can get an SNS from a public health nurse
(although you may have to battle to get one), from a lactation clinic, or
from Medela's On-Line store.

Hang in there! This isn't an easy road to follow.

--
Charlotte Millington
Director, Global Birth Institute
www.globalbirth.org

I had problems with my daughter when she first born. She also did not open her
mouth very wide. What helped was I looked at her and said "AHHHHHH" That's it.
Not "Open" not a conversation, just "AHHHH" It worked. Also, if she opens her
mouth far enough while crying, see if you can get her on then. Note: this may
not work with the oral aversion problem. Sue
Tupperware without the party???
Shop online at my website.
http://my.tupperware.com/SueBurton

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