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Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 31st 08, 10:16 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
[email protected]
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Posts: 77
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

Hi All

Before I post my BA and BS on m.k.p I could do with some advice.

Despite thinking I knew what I was doing second time round I am again
having horrible problems bf'ing.

After 4 days of the baby being unsatisfied after every feed I spoke to
bf consultant who suggested my latch isn't right. I agree as the
nipple, as well as being cracked and sore, is also going flat shaped.
From what i can figure out ds#2 has a small mouth and so is having
trouble getting lots of breast tissuse in his mouth. I'm working on
the positioning so the nipple is towards the roof of his mouth but
even so he just doesn't seem to be getting enough milk at each feed.
He has refused to sleep from day 2, so just to get some sleep we have
supplemented at night. I know this will not help his latch but no
sleep is not an option, so it's just a temporary measure. From tonight
I am measuring the feeds so will reduce it each night, but for now
they have to stay.

In the meantime I need to help in finding a way for him to get him
mouth open wide enough to get a decent feed. I have been nursing
almost non-stop in the day but that's not helping because he is too
tired once he does latch to feed, so just falls asleep. I'm losing the
will to try because I am so sore but desperatley want to keep going.
I've used all the tricks to try and keep him awake but he does need
sleep. He will sleep in the sling so will use that as much as possible
so he's refreshed ready for the next feed. But the mouth opening is
the issue I need help on. I'm off to the local bf'ing drop-in clinic
on Friday but would really appreciate some help.

Thanks

Jeni
  #2  
Old January 31st 08, 01:59 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Sarah Vaughan
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Posts: 443
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

wrote:

In the meantime I need to help in finding a way for him to get him
mouth open wide enough to get a decent feed.


You've probably tried these things already, but the tricks I know a

1. Cross-carry hold. Use the arm on the opposite side to put him on the
breast. This way, you can support his head by having your finger and
thumb in a V-shape at the base of his head, which gives him lots of room
to tip his head back. That in turn gives more room for his mouth to
open (try opening your mouth as wide as possible without bending your
head back, and you'll see what I mean). This works better than the
conventional 'cradle' hold (holding the baby in the crook of the arm on
the same side as the breast you're nursing from) because with cradle
hold your forearm gets in the way of him getting his head back.

2. When you bring him to the breast, bring him in with his nose, rather
than his mouth, level with your nipple. This way he has to open his
mouth wider to get it around the nipple. (Again, try holding some food
level with your nose and then with your mouth and taking a bite, and
you'll see that you open your mouth wider when it's level with your nose.)

Also, you mentioned you were holding the breast to position it - are you
holding it with your finger and thumb either side of the breast so that
you can flatten it slightly in line with his mouth? Some people make
the mistake of putting finger and thumb above and below the breast,
which makes it harder.

Oh, one final thought which I always ask about - have you had him
checked for tongue tie? So simple to sort out and so often missed...
(yeah, ask me how I know...)

Good luck & congratulations on your baby & on managing to get breast
milk into him against the odds!


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

  #3  
Old January 31st 08, 03:56 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Mary W.
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Posts: 80
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

On Jan 31, 5:16 am, "
wrote:
Hi All

Before I post my BA and BS on m.k.p I could do with some advice.

Despite thinking I knew what I was doing second time round I am again
having horrible problems bf'ing.

After 4 days of the baby being unsatisfied after every feed I spoke to
bf consultant who suggested my latch isn't right. I agree as the
nipple, as well as being cracked and sore, is also going flat shaped.
From what i can figure out ds#2 has a small mouth and so is having
trouble getting lots of breast tissuse in his mouth. I'm working on
the positioning so the nipple is towards the roof of his mouth but
even so he just doesn't seem to be getting enough milk at each feed.
He has refused to sleep from day 2, so just to get some sleep we have
supplemented at night. I know this will not help his latch but no
sleep is not an option, so it's just a temporary measure. From tonight
I am measuring the feeds so will reduce it each night, but for now
they have to stay.


First, I'd have them look for tongue tie as Sarah suggested.

And try different holds - maybe the football hold? Is your milk in?
Are you engorged - that can make it hard for them to latch. Try
pumping just a little right before trying to latch on so you pull the
nipple out and soften the breast some. When he's latched on,
you can do breast compression to help him get more milk and
get some hind milk which is fattier. DD1 was terribly sleepy
with a bad latch her first week. The best thing we did was get
a professional lactation consultant into our home and she
really helped with our problems. You might consider a supplemental
nursing system so that baby get's a bit more a feed and takes
it from the breast. And if you supplement, try not to use bottles.
They will likely mess up the latch more.

DD1's problem was that she wouldn't keep her tongue down
(it went to the roof of her mouth). We did suck training with
our fingers and even used a bottle to help with her suck.
Once she started getting sufficient milk she was more alert.

The other thing you can do once baby latches is to use your
thumb and pull down on his chin. This will sometimes encourage
a better latch and proper fish lips.

For the cracked nipples, I used ibuprofen which helped a little
with the pain. The soothies refridgerated gel pads helped too. With
DD1, my cracks didn't heal until I got treated for thrush (I had
antibiotics during labor and a c-section, which I think contributed).
DD2- the cracks healed when she started latching better.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!
Mary W.
  #4  
Old January 31st 08, 04:41 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
betsy
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Posts: 234
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

On Jan 31, 7:56*am, "Mary W." wrote:
On Jan 31, 5:16 am, "





wrote:
Hi All


Before I post my BA and BS on m.k.p I could do with some advice.


Despite thinking I knew what I was doing second time round I am again
having horrible problems bf'ing.



I was dismayed to find that my second had a much harder time learning
to nurse than my first. I had thought it would be easier the second
time.

After 4 days of the baby being unsatisfied after every feed I spoke to
bf consultant who suggested my latch isn't right. I agree as the
nipple, as well as being cracked and sore, is also going flat shaped.
From what i can figure out ds#2 has a small mouth and so is having
trouble getting lots of breast tissuse in his mouth. I'm working on
the positioning so the nipple is towards the roof of his mouth but
even so he just doesn't seem to be getting enough milk at each feed.
He has refused to sleep from day 2, so just to get some sleep we have
supplemented at night. I know this will not help his latch but no
sleep is not an option, so it's just a temporary measure. From tonight
I am measuring the feeds so will reduce it each night, but for now
they have to stay.


First, I'd have them look for tongue tie as Sarah suggested.

And try different holds - maybe the football hold? Is your milk in?
Are you engorged - that can make it hard for them to latch. Try
pumping just a little right before trying to latch on so you pull the
nipple out and soften the breast some. When he's latched on,
you can do breast compression to help him get more milk and
get some hind milk which is fattier. DD1 was terribly sleepy
with a bad latch her first week. The best thing we did was get
a professional lactation consultant into our home and she
really helped with our problems. You might consider a supplemental
nursing system so that baby get's a bit more a feed and takes
it from the breast. And if you supplement, try not to use bottles.
They will likely mess up the latch more.

DD1's problem was that she wouldn't keep her tongue down
(it went to the roof of her mouth). We did suck training with
our fingers and even used a bottle to help with her suck.
Once she started getting sufficient milk she was more alert.

The other thing you can do once baby latches is to use your
thumb and pull down on his chin. This will sometimes encourage
a better latch and proper fish lips.


I've found that doing this works best during a letdown. The baby is
happily getting milk and relaxes his chin enough to allow it. If your
baby is not latching well enough to stimulate a letdown, you could try
pumping just until you have a letdown, then use this method to work on
his latch.

--Betsy
  #5  
Old January 31st 08, 06:01 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Anne Rogers[_4_]
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Posts: 670
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

Jeni, what did you use to give the supplement? It's possible at this
stage that giving this by bottle will make any problems harder to get over.

One tip I picked up at LLL last week is to show and vocalise what the
baby needs to do to latch, open your mouth wide and make ahhhh noises, a
couple of mums reported great success with this as the baby mimicked
them. Other than that the kind of help you are needing with positioning
and getting a good latch is really best done face to face, I hope you
can get the help you need at the drop in (btw, if it's Rachel or Judy
can you say hi from me!).

Cheers
Anne
  #6  
Old February 2nd 08, 07:10 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
[email protected]
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Posts: 77
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

Hi again

Thank you so much for all your advice!!

Well, in the end I had to take a step back to go forward. For two days
I used nipple shields to let my nipples heal, as I could not even
focus on trying to fix his latch whilst in so much pain and sleep
deprived. I really was ready to jack all in. I was able to relax as it
didn't hurt to latch him on and really watch what I and he was doing.
I practiced lots of things like the nose to nipple, letting his head
flop back slightly so he could open his mouth wide, and really making
sure I bought him to me rather than craming my breast into his mouth.
Because I have the energy and no pain I also made sure I kept him
awake during a feed so he really got lots of milk - so lots of burping
and mid boob nappy changes. I have gone from supplementing 180ml to
just 80 last night, so we will be done with the bottles in a couple of
days. He now has between 2 and 4 hour sleep periods and settles much
easier without a dummy most of the time. He seems to have taken the
various different nipple types in his stride, and we have managed lots
of successful latches without the shields today. The mw watched as I
did it this morning agreed it looked right. His bottom lip still
doesn't flange brilliantly, but his chin and cheeks are tucked up to
the breast and the nipple isn't going flat. It's still slightly
uncomfortable but as the mw says they still need to toughen up. So all
in all it's going in the right direction and I can start to enjoy
bf'ing again instead of dreading it.

Anne: If you mean Judy S - she delivered my baby at home and was
wonderful!!! I didn't get down to the clinic as I wanted to wait till
I had done with the shields, but hopefully I won't need to know. But
great to know they are there if I do.

Sarah: the imagining the mouth thing really helped me understand why
he needs to let his head drop back a little to latch on - so thanks
for that!. I do use the cross-body hold for one side and it easier to
latch, but because my other nipple points at a weird angle I use the
rugby ball hold for that side. Odd but it works - apparently my sister
did the same thing so maybe it's genetic.

Also - I did try feeding some ebm with a syringe but he looked at me
like I was mad and it just dribbled out, so we are sticking to bottles
as he doesn't seem confused by them thank goodness. They are the TT
ones so more like a breast than the avent ones I used with ds#1.

All in all a very relieved and happy mummy and a much more content
little chap. Thank you everyone.

Jeni
  #7  
Old February 3rd 08, 04:53 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Anne Rogers[_4_]
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Posts: 670
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples


Anne: If you mean Judy S - she delivered my baby at home and was
wonderful!!! I didn't get down to the clinic as I wanted to wait till
I had done with the shields, but hopefully I won't need to know. But
great to know they are there if I do.


I'm having memory loss and can't for the life of me recall her surname,
but I suspect it's the same person, I know she covers your area. We were
in pilates class together for a year or so, then I would bump into her
at breastfeeding drop in and I did a breastfeeding info stall at a
community centre with her once, she made buns and iced them to look like
breasts!!!!!

Anne
  #9  
Old February 4th 08, 09:40 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Rebecca Jo
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Posts: 144
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

"NL" wrote:

Ok, what are "TT" bottles? I'm really intrigued by your description of
them being more like the breast. A friend of mine started working part
time and her daughter will not take a bottle at all and she's worried
about her fluid intake... (She works two full days and one half day) I
don't know yet if the baby's taking fluids with a spoon or a cup or
something I'll need to ask her when I see her again.

cu
nicole


I don't know what a TT bottle is but I had good luck with this bottle:
http://www.adiri.com/products_html/natural_nurser.asp when my son wouldn't
take a regular one. Also, Dr Brown's worked well for a friend of mine.

Good luck to your friend.

--
Rebecca Jo
Mama to Alexander 6/6/05 & Jack 7/7/07


  #10  
Old February 5th 08, 03:04 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
[email protected]
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Posts: 77
Default Bad latch,small mouth, cracked nipples

On 4 Feb, 17:45, NL wrote:
schrieb:
snip

Also - I did try feeding some ebm with a syringe but he looked at me
like I was mad and it just dribbled out, so we are sticking to bottles
as he doesn't seem confused by them thank goodness. They are the TT
ones so more like a breast than the avent ones I used with ds#1.


Ok, what are "TT" bottles? I'm really intrigued by your description of
them being more like the breast. A friend of mine started working part
time and her daughter will not take a bottle at all and she's worried
about her fluid intake... (She works two full days and one half day) I
don't know yet if the baby's taking fluids with a spoon or a cup or
something I'll need to ask her when I see her again.

cu
nicole


It's a Tommy Tippee one. DS#2 took to it no problems. I have just
bought some TT dummies which seem to work better too.

I know lots of women have success with Dr Brown's when their lo is
very windy.

Jeni
 




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