Dr. Sarah shrugs as little penises are ripped and sliced en masse.

On 5 Jan 2005 08:21:35 -0800, "anyone4tea"
wrote:

Although Todd has some very real points, and also has helped in my
anti-circumcision issue, what he has still failed to realize is that we
are his audience and he's turning us off by commandeering each thread
and victimizing others by name. Although I don't wish to do this, I
may also have to killfile him.

Todd is learning. I am trying to help him get his message across to
where people will be more ready to listen to his message. He is a
good guy. He has some learning to do with communicating with others
without putting them offside.

I have made several suggestions to Todd, and he has taken them into
consideration. I have also noticed that he is TRYING to work with my
suggestions.

Todd really wants people to get his message. Yes, he has an agenda.
Yes, he is long winded. Yes, he can be very off-putting. But as you
say, he has some very real and valid points. He needs to learn how to
get those points out there so that people will listen

I hope that he will read your post and take your ideas on board. They
were well thought out and eloquent. Todd doesn't try to put people
offside. He is trying to get people to think. Sometimes, he isn't as
effective as he could be.

--
Daye
Mommy to:
DD - age 3
DS - age 1

Daye,

You are a real sweetheart with a LOTS of patience.

Best of luck!
Larry

Daye writes:
: On 5 Jan 2005 08:21:35 -0800, "anyone4tea"
: wrote:

:Although Todd has some very real points, and also has helped in my
:anti-circumcision issue, what he has still failed to realize is that we
:are his audience and he's turning us off by commandeering each thread
:and victimizing others by name. Although I don't wish to do this, I
:may also have to killfile him.

: Todd is learning. I am trying to help him get his message across to
: where people will be more ready to listen to his message. He is a
: good guy. He has some learning to do with communicating with others
: without putting them offside.

: I have made several suggestions to Todd, and he has taken them into
: consideration. I have also noticed that he is TRYING to work with my
: suggestions.

: Todd really wants people to get his message. Yes, he has an agenda.
: Yes, he is long winded. Yes, he can be very off-putting. But as you
: say, he has some very real and valid points. He needs to learn how to
: get those points out there so that people will listen

: I hope that he will read your post and take your ideas on board. They
: were well thought out and eloquent. Todd doesn't try to put people
: offside. He is trying to get people to think. Sometimes, he isn't as
: effective as he could be.

: --
: Daye
: Mommy to:
: DD - age 3
: DS - age 1

I agree.

Todd

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...

Daye,

You are a real sweetheart with a LOTS of patience.

Best of luck!
Larry

Daye writes:
: On 5 Jan 2005 08:21:35 -0800, "anyone4tea"
: wrote:

:Although Todd has some very real points, and also has helped in my
:anti-circumcision issue, what he has still failed to realize is that we
:are his audience and he's turning us off by commandeering each thread
:and victimizing others by name. Although I don't wish to do this, I
:may also have to killfile him.

: Todd is learning. I am trying to help him get his message across to
: where people will be more ready to listen to his message. He is a
: good guy. He has some learning to do with communicating with others
: without putting them offside.

: I have made several suggestions to Todd, and he has taken them into
: consideration. I have also noticed that he is TRYING to work with my
: suggestions.

: Todd really wants people to get his message. Yes, he has an agenda.
: Yes, he is long winded. Yes, he can be very off-putting. But as you
: say, he has some very real and valid points. He needs to learn how to
: get those points out there so that people will listen

: I hope that he will read your post and take your ideas on board. They
: were well thought out and eloquent. Todd doesn't try to put people
: offside. He is trying to get people to think. Sometimes, he isn't as
: effective as he could be.

: --
: Daye
: Mommy to:
: DD - age 3
: DS - age 1

Todd Gastaldo writes:
: I agree.

: Todd

Hi Todd,

As you probably know, this is not the only thing we agree on. :-)

But as my hippy friends used to tell me 30 years ago,
"it's not what you say, it's the way you say it!"

:-)
Larry

KARL MARX HAD 6 KIDS...

See below.

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...
Todd Gastaldo writes:
: I agree [that Daye is a sweetheart with a LOT of patience].

: Todd

Hi Todd,

As you probably know, this is not the only thing we agree on. :-)

But as my hippy friends used to tell me 30 years ago,
"it's not what you say, it's the way you say it!"

:-)
Larry

Larry,

I am reading a 2002 book about Karl Marx titled "Why Read Marx Today?" by
Jonathan Wolff.

I can see now why I never really understood Marx.

I can see now why a LOT of people never really understood Marx.

Jonathan Wolff says of Marx's texts that they are "best read when you
already know, roughly, what they are going to say." LOL! (Prof Wolff is
biased - he makes some of his capital by teaching people what Marx's books
say.)

I remember picking up Capital (?) by Marx years ago - but not picking up on
it. Apparently I'm not the only one who's had problems interpreting Marx.
According to Wolff, the people who APPLIED Marx also had problems. See the
quote at the very end of this post.

Another quote - supposedly on Marx's grave:

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point is to change
it."

I want to change the world, Larry.

As you know, I want OBs to stop various obvious crimes.

First and foremost...

I want OBs to stop closing birth canals up to 30%.

I want OBs to stop KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get stuck.

Assuming we can agree that OBs should stop this massive crime TOMORROW...

How can I say it so that this grisly obstetric tomfoolery ACTUALLY ends
tomorrow (or today!)?

How can YOU say it so the grisly obstetric tomfoolery ends tomorrow?

How about next week? Next month? Next year?

Could you ask your hippy friends for phraseology that will do the trick? : )

Thanks,

Todd

PS Karl Marx reportedly believed that human history is the story of the
development of human productive power and that revolutions occur when human
reproductive power is "fettered."

Human REproductive power is being "fettered" - by OBs keeping birth canals
closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck (among other obvious
birth crimes).

Borrowing from Marx...

Subscribers to misc.kids.pregnancy have only interpreted obstetrics - the
point is to change it - tomorrow if possible.

I think 100% of babies about to be born would agree with this.

How does one "say it" to change it tomorrow, Larry?

It is interesting to note that Marx's six children (only three survived
infancy) were born in the 1800s at about the time Semmelweis was
experimenting with side-lying births on his way to discovering that
obstetricians were fettering human reproductive power by failing to wash
their hands between working on dead bodies and attending the birth of live
ones.


A few last matters....

Here's that quote from Marx's book which indicates that people have had
trouble APPLYING Marx's work:

"We can safely conclude that the world has not (yet?) seen a Marxist
revolution."

I mention this because people are having trouble applying GASTALDO'S work -
including Gastaldo - LOL - as you and others point out.

Larry, yes do ask your hippy friends HOW to "say it" so that the grisly
obstetric tomfoolery can end tomorrow.

Tell them that presently women have to ASK for the "extra" up to 30% - and
sometimes when they ask it is denied.

Tell them that OBs are routinely KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get
stuck.

Tell them about OBs sometimes pulling so hard they rip spinal nerves out of
tiny spinal cords...

Tell them it is EASY for women to allow their birth canals to OPEN the
"extra" up to 30%.

It could make a difference - at least for the grandchildren being born to
your hippy friends.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Todd

Daye, that was really well said.

Lucy

Geeez, you write long posts, even when you make personal replies. :-)

"Todd Gastaldo" wrote in message
k.net...

Cutting to the chase:

I want to change the world, Larry.

This is a good desire. A little utopian, maybe, but very good! More
people should feel this passionate about the things they wish to
accomplish. That is why I continue to post on mkp, even though my
youngest is 5.

As you know, I want OBs to stop various obvious crimes.

First and foremost...

I want OBs to stop closing birth canals up to 30%.

I want OBs to stop KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get stuck.

Assuming we can agree that OBs should stop this massive crime TOMORROW...

How can I say it so that this grisly obstetric tomfoolery ACTUALLY ends
tomorrow (or today!)?

This is the logical question, and the one you must meditate on to come to
a successful answer. The statements before the last are just the way you
personally picture the problem.

How can YOU say it so the grisly obstetric tomfoolery ends tomorrow?

How about next week? Next month? Next year?

Another great question. The answer is that today is better than tomorrow,
tomorrow is better than next week, next week is better than next year, etc.
But I think you know that. My point here is that you try to achieve the
result
incrementally over time, and you adjust your strategy to make the most rapid
progress, even if that progress is painfully slow to you.

I will tell you a secret here. This is a political problem, and politics is
a lot
like orthodontia: A small force applied over a long period of time will
always
have a greater effect than a large force applied all at once. Your frontal
attack on the OB medical establishment has the political effect of a
sledgehammer. The disproportionate force will drive people into the enemy
camp, even if you are right.

Could you ask your hippy friends for phraseology that will do the trick?
: )

OK. I will try to answer, but here is the place where I am really afraid
that
you will stop listening. :-( ...

In the first place, it wouldn't matter if every OB in the world continued to
close
birth canals if NOBODY went to OBs to birth their babies. This tells me
that
the first strategy should be to explain to women what is happening to them
(not in terms of crime and punishment, but in technical biophysical terms)
and
convince them to go to practicioners (mostly midwifes) who do NOT practice
the activity. The second thing to do is to stop a frontal attack on a
powerful
and entrenched foe. Ignore the OBs and tell the women to go to midwives to
stop closing their birth canals and have a better birth. A subtle attack
wins
wars, a frontal attack just gets you bloodied!

Thanks,

Todd

I truly hope this helps,
Larry

Larry,
I thoroughly enjoyed your reply.
With babies being paralyzed and killed it is possible for dramatic progress
in birth trauma litigation.
You mentioned that this is a political problem...
Think of the powerful political forces arrayed to keep all birth trauma
attorneys from telling juries that OBs are lying and closing birth canals up
to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck.
That is power - grisly power.
Todd

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...
Geeez, you write long posts, even when you make personal replies. :-)

"Todd Gastaldo" wrote in message
k.net...

Cutting to the chase:

I want to change the world, Larry.

This is a good desire. A little utopian, maybe, but very good! More
people should feel this passionate about the things they wish to
accomplish. That is why I continue to post on mkp, even though my
youngest is 5.

As you know, I want OBs to stop various obvious crimes.

First and foremost...

I want OBs to stop closing birth canals up to 30%.

I want OBs to stop KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get stuck.

Assuming we can agree that OBs should stop this massive crime TOMORROW...

How can I say it so that this grisly obstetric tomfoolery ACTUALLY ends
tomorrow (or today!)?

This is the logical question, and the one you must meditate on to come to
a successful answer. The statements before the last are just the way you
personally picture the problem.

How can YOU say it so the grisly obstetric tomfoolery ends tomorrow?

How about next week? Next month? Next year?

Another great question. The answer is that today is better than tomorrow,
tomorrow is better than next week, next week is better than next year,
etc.
But I think you know that. My point here is that you try to achieve the
result
incrementally over time, and you adjust your strategy to make the most
rapid
progress, even if that progress is painfully slow to you.

I will tell you a secret here. This is a political problem, and politics
is
a lot
like orthodontia: A small force applied over a long period of time will
always
have a greater effect than a large force applied all at once. Your
frontal
attack on the OB medical establishment has the political effect of a
sledgehammer. The disproportionate force will drive people into the enemy
camp, even if you are right.

Could you ask your hippy friends for phraseology that will do the trick?
: )

OK. I will try to answer, but here is the place where I am really afraid
that
you will stop listening. :-( ...

In the first place, it wouldn't matter if every OB in the world continued
to
close
birth canals if NOBODY went to OBs to birth their babies. This tells me
that
the first strategy should be to explain to women what is happening to them
(not in terms of crime and punishment, but in technical biophysical terms)
and
convince them to go to practicioners (mostly midwifes) who do NOT practice
the activity. The second thing to do is to stop a frontal attack on a
powerful
and entrenched foe. Ignore the OBs and tell the women to go to midwives
to
stop closing their birth canals and have a better birth. A subtle attack
wins
wars, a frontal attack just gets you bloodied!

Thanks,

Todd

I truly hope this helps,
Larry

I don't get the title. What am I pretending? Oh, to not pay attention to
you on this thread currently?


"Todd Gastaldo" wrote in message
k.net...
LOL!

OBs are lying and closing birth canals up to 30% and KEEPING birth canals
closed when babies get stuck - and I'm the only one calling for them to
stop - and *I'm* crazy?!

Maybe you're right! LOL!

Todd ("crazy guy")

PS What false accusations?

"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
...
You are reverting to your usual shtick by taking almost any post and
turning it into one of your soap boxes. It's annoying. You know the
saying, "Don't kill the messenger."? Well, in your case, I think it is
appropriate to killfile the messenger. I have never disputed your claims
about anything, as with most other people, what I am against is your
methods. You turn off the very people that you might hope to reach.
Just standing around yelling about birth canals isn't helpful. Taking
existing threads and turning them into rants about birth canals isn't
convincing. Crazy people stand on street corners and spout off all the
time, and some of what they say may be true, but if they are scary, if
they haven't bathed and smell bad, if they mix their truths with rhetoric
and false accusations against upstanding members of the community, then
wonder of wonder, people will stop paying attention to the crazy guy.
Todd, you are the crazy guy here on the ng.

There is no arguing with crazy.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- The Inquisitor, who asks "What's that?" only
1000 times a day.
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- The Thug, who yells "HEY! HEY! WHERE IS MY
FOOD!" quite loudly at 3am!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID
and Password

I do think his *one* point is valid, but the way he goes about it is
entirely offensive and makes most people turn away. That is a very
ineffective method of obtaining people to support his cause. I don't know
what he does to actually support his cause other than holler, scream, nudge
into other threads, and lamblast people in his messages. I have yet to read
about anything he has actually *done* regarding his cause. Does he go to
childbirth classes as a guest speaker to discuss alt. positions for
delivery? Does he give talks to OB's and providers? He has shown that he
has some potential to be "normal" but then he turns around and gets a bunch
of us angry and frustrated at him.


"Daye" wrote in message
...
On 5 Jan 2005 08:21:35 -0800, "anyone4tea"
wrote:

Although Todd has some very real points, and also has helped in my
anti-circumcision issue, what he has still failed to realize is that we
are his audience and he's turning us off by commandeering each thread
and victimizing others by name. Although I don't wish to do this, I
may also have to killfile him.

Todd is learning. I am trying to help him get his message across to
where people will be more ready to listen to his message. He is a
good guy. He has some learning to do with communicating with others
without putting them offside.

I have made several suggestions to Todd, and he has taken them into
consideration. I have also noticed that he is TRYING to work with my
suggestions.

Todd really wants people to get his message. Yes, he has an agenda.
Yes, he is long winded. Yes, he can be very off-putting. But as you
say, he has some very real and valid points. He needs to learn how to
get those points out there so that people will listen

I hope that he will read your post and take your ideas on board. They
were well thought out and eloquent. Todd doesn't try to put people
offside. He is trying to get people to think. Sometimes, he isn't as
effective as he could be.

--
Daye
Mommy to:
DD - age 3
DS - age 1