Toys again: for 2-year-old

In article . com, -L. says...


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Welches wrote:

Dh cares :-) He's got perfect pitch and it really hurts him. I think #1
might be the same way, she definitely is close if nothing else.
I don't think for a child who's randomly pressing buttons (as opposed to
learning to play tunes) it matters one iota.
If they're learning to play tunes it may matter, but if they're really
learning to play the piano you want to have full sized keys anyway.

Yes, if they're learning to play piano you should
have full-sized keys, and it doesn't matter as much otherwise.
However, the pitch matters regardless. Experience of music
shapes our brains and how we perceive music, especially in
younger years. Those little brains get settled into very
subtle nuances when it comes to different languages when
they're very young, shaping how they are able to understand
and produce speech sounds the rest of their lives. The same
is true for music.

Oh, please. As if a kid is never going to hear any sound that is out
of pitch. And if he does that it will affect his ability to play
music. How ridiculous.


"Oh please" what?

She didn't say that there'd be a problem if they *ever* heard a sound out of
pitch.

The sounds coming out of these early musical instruments form expectations as to
what pitches are. In order for a child to develop an ear for pitch, he or she
needs to *hear* correct pitch. And, yes, that affect the ability to play music
on most instruments. And singing on pitch, for that matter.

Banty

In article .com,
"-L." wrote:

Chookie wrote:
Presumably the review I read talked about a different version, as none of
the pieces were removable and the sound was too loud. But I can share a book
with my DSs to tell them the names of letters, sing the ABC song etc. I can
tell them the names of most instruments from sound, too.

Well, no ****. The point is, the toy teaches when the child is alone
with it.

That's irrelevant -- I'm happy to join in with books.

If a child cannot read himself, books can't do that, other
than to visually stimulate.

Depends on the age of the child. I have seen my 18mo sitting down with a
book, jabbering away to himself, and turning the pages in the correct
direction. That's more than visual stimulation.

Plus such toys reinforce what is taught by the parents.

I assume you mean in the ABC sense as opposed to the "Ooh, shiny!" sense?
Some do and some don't. See the keyboard issue below.

I tend to view small keyboards with suspicion. Are the keys properly
pitched, do you know?

If you mean pitch as in sound - I don't know - Why would anyone care?
It's not teaching exact notes. It teaches colors and numbers. The
music is incidental.

No; the music is integral to the device. A,B,C,D, and E have real values in
music. If something is marked as an A in my house and it plays a note, it
plays a real A. There is a big distinction between a key which *plays a note*
and a button which *makes a beep*. If the toy doesn't make this distinction,
it isn't reinforcing what I'm 'teaching', for one thing, and secondly, it can
be very frustrating. There wasn't much money when I was little and I still
remember my frustration that my toy xylophone couldn't carry a tune -- it went
'clink' no matter which key you hit. As a result, my boys have a proper
xylophone and chime bars, assorted percussion instruments, and these days, a
keyboard too.

Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.

You're incredibly short sighted.

So no, IMO the electronics don't add value at all.

Once again, incredibly short sighted.

Please explain why.

I already have - at least twice. As have others in this thread.

Pardon me -- I thought you were making a further point.

They are advantageous because they expose children to different things
and different ways of learning. If you cannot see that, you are
short-sighted. It's *exposure* that is important.

Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
cannot obtain elsewhere? I suppose that's my basic premise: they aren't
necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

It was a while back wehn I read about it, but I'm pretty sure that the big
predictors of educational attainment in children are the educational
attainment of the parents, and the number of books in the home.

Well, based on a number of people I know, that's total bull****.
Anyone can make a study say anything they want. Of course educated
parents will have educated children - that's a no-brainer. They
probably didn't look at all of the different sorts of toys each child
had, nor how toys varied between the groups. Educated parents have
books - again, a no-brainer - but most children have access to books
through a public library and school.

My impression (and it's all a bit hazy now, I'm afraid) is that these were the
*replicated* findings. The books-in-the-home result was independent of
parental SES and educational attainment. And the books had to be *in* the
home: access via libraries is not the same thing, unfortunately for my
profession.

No one is arguing that books
aren't valuable - of course they are. The point is, *all* toys have
value. You just refuse to acknowlege that fact.

The value of toys is relative to other toys, not absolute. There are parents
here and elsewhere with serious reservations about the value of Barbie, Bratz
dolls, toy guns, toy soldiers, Monopoly, playing cards etc etc. I put TTBAF
low on the value list. As I said before, we do have some; OTOH I did not buy
any of them except the Lamaze cot toy. The reason I don't think they're
terribly 'educational' is that the things they teach are generally very simple
and obtainable elsewhere -- numbers and letters, for example -- and the
'interaction' is rather slight. In addition, I find the flashing lights
annoying, the sounds harsh and the speakers of poor quality. And very few
TTBAF come with an Australian accent (can you get toys with a Texas accent?)!

And not everything
can be taught through a book. Children learn differently. For some,
books are a good way to learn, for others, interactive electronic toys
are much more effective, and for others, other means (videos, songs,
dance) are more effective. No one type of toy or teaching is superior
to another - in general.

'Interactive electronic toys' are not a teaching method. One does learn by
reading, but you have to read a lot better than the average toddler to do it.
In general, I believe that you have to have a *variety* of play experiences
available to children to enhance their development, but you don't need any
*particular* play experiences for development to occur in a normal child in a
middle-class family. Therefore, I don't believe my children are missing out
because they don't have an extensive collection of Vtech-type toys.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
cannot obtain elsewhere? I suppose that's my basic premise: they aren't
necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

Why does it matter if they can learn it elsewhere? If they enjoy learning
it through that toy, why not let them?

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
cannot obtain elsewhere? I suppose that's my basic premise: they aren't
necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

Why does it matter if they can learn it elsewhere? If they enjoy learning
it through that toy, why not let them?

Reread the thread to find where I advocated the wholesale banning of TTBAF.
And reread the thread to find who suggested that children without TTBAF might
be "left behind". I am saying that TTBAF are not necessary and can be
annoying.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

In article . com,
"-L." wrote:

However, the pitch matters regardless. Experience of music
shapes our brains and how we perceive music, especially in
younger years. Those little brains get settled into very
subtle nuances when it comes to different languages when
they're very young, shaping how they are able to understand
and produce speech sounds the rest of their lives. The same
is true for music.

Oh, please. As if a kid is never going to hear any sound that is out
of pitch. And if he does that it will affect his ability to play
music. How ridiculous.

THe point that you missed is not that a child will never hear a sound out of
pitch; it's that if he has a keyboard where the A isn't a true A, or the
relationships between notes are just a bit out, what he hears will become what
he perceives as right. It will be much harder for him to develop a true ear
later on.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which
I
cannot obtain elsewhere? I suppose that's my basic premise: they
aren't
necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

Why does it matter if they can learn it elsewhere? If they enjoy
learning
it through that toy, why not let them?

Reread the thread to find where I advocated the wholesale banning of
TTBAF.
And reread the thread to find who suggested that children without TTBAF
might
be "left behind". I am saying that TTBAF are not necessary and can be
annoying.

You didn't advocate banning, but you certainly give the impression that you
are very much against them. I don't think they desrve such disdain.

I never said anything about children and "left behind." That was someone
else.