Help Wanted! for Unruly 3yo & more

Stephanie wrote:
Yes it is minor point. And rather silly in this context. But that is what my
brain was thinking when I wrote it. I was not trying to be a PITA.

LOL It happens to all of us. Gotta love that Mommy-brain! :-)

Cathy Weeks

You have my sympathy. Life with young children can be extremely
difficult.

Her behaviour doesn't have to be because of anything you've
done wrong. There are lots of examples of children who behave
reasonably well at school and terribly at home. Of course, the
teachers tend to blame the parents for poor discipline. But
then there are stories of the same teachers later on having
children of their own, and finding that their own children
behave very badly at home for them, in spite of their long
list of techniques for getting children to sit still in class.
Children just need to unwind at home or with a parent they
feel comfortable unwinding with, similarly to some adults who
don't yell at anyone at work but yell at family members after
a stressful day at work. It's not the fault of the family
members who are being yelled at. It's a common occurrence.
But it's not acceptable and whether it's an adult or child
doing it they need to be taught otherwise, even if it takes
super-careful discipline to do it.

I was just reading a book about zinc and other micronutrients.
There was this girl who had terrible tantrums and ranted in
her room for long periods of time. She did poorly in school.
This went on until she was a teenager, and then they started
her on multivitamins and zinc. They thought zinc might help
because she seemed to be better for a while whenver she had
fried oysters, and oysters are very high in zinc (though also
high in some unhealthy metals). She because a changed person,
stopped the tantrums and started doing OK in life. After a
few months they stopped the zinc to see what would happen.
In two days she had a terrible tantrum and ranted in her room.
They started the zinc again and she was fine after that.

Omega-3 essential fatty acids are important for brain health.
They might help. And vitamin C. And the B vitamins.
It wouldn't surprise me if chiropractic treatment would
help, though it might not.

When does your husband sleep? What time does your daughter
wake up in the morning? It would probably be best if she
wakes at the same time every day, to help with a regular
bedtime.

Books that might help more than the ones I suggested
previously a "Raising Your Spirited Child" (I forget the
author) and "The Explosive Child" by L. Greene.

"Raising Your Spirited Child" is an encouraging book because
not only does it give effective advice to improve life
and avoid tantrums, but it also gives the message that there's
nothing wrong with you and there's nothing wrong with your
child. A Spirited child is one who is *more* energetic,
persistent, determined, steady-on-course, and/or intelligent etc. than
the average child. These children have traits that are
very positive and useful in life, but make life harder
for parents.

Maybe your girl is the steady-on-course or "slow-to-adapt" type,
in addition to being highly energetic and persistent.
These people have difficulty for example with a school that
keeps having bells ringing that mean you're supposed to drop
whatever you're doing and move to the next classroom, but
in the real world their tendency to finish what they've started
and stave off interruptions can be very beneficial.
As teenagers their tendency not to suddenly do new
things can save them from following other kids into
risky behaviour.

The steady-on-course type benefits from help with transitions,
for example politely letting a child know ten minutes before
it's going to be time to go home. It might help (I'm not sure)
if when you pick her up at daycare you carve 5 or 10 minutes out
of your busy schedule to get down on the floor and actively
play with toys with her, before leaving, so she can gently
transition from being at daycare to interacting with Mummy.
Handing her a healthy snack (including a bit of protein, e.g.
slice of cheese or drink of milk) as you're leaving could be
both a distraction to calm her and a blood sugar booster.
Try to hand her the snack *before* she starts making any fuss --
probably the second you see her!

I hope this is helpful. Good luck. Let us know
how things work out.

runninarnd3 ) writes:
Is it just me, or am I losing it? I have 3 kids, 8, 6, & 3. My 3yo is
unusually (IMO) well, naughty. I am at my wits end and any advice
would be appreciated.

I work days (8-5) and my DH works nights (3pm - 3am). The older kids
are at school and go to an afterschool program until 6. The 3yo is
home w/ DH and goes to daycare 3-6 (2 days a week goes full time for
preschool). Anyway. My time with the kids is precious, but everyday I
pick 3yo up first and no joke, we NEVER make it any farther than the
car before she throws a fit. She doesn't want to wear her coat. SHE
wants to open the door, she won't wear her seat belt...get into the
car...and on and on. The other day she threw such a loud fit outside
the afterschool program that one of the directors came out because she
thought someone was hurt!

I don't know where to start, but I have to start somewhere, so here is
a "list" of issues we seem to have:
She won't go to bed (she refuses to sleep in her bed, on the playroom
couch or anything, unless I go to sleep and then she wants sleep with
me)

If I do get her to sit still and watch a movie or laydown, she is
constantly hungry, thirsty, the dog is bugging her etc

We went to the mall today, she kept running around and when I told her
firmly to stop, she would just stop and stick her tounge out or say "I
hate you Mommy"

She refuses to eat her own food, she has to eat mine

She won't help pick up 99% of the time

She hits her siblings

She never leave me alone, she has to have my constant attention,
always, all the time, 24/7 and thinks she is my boss. She will even
tell me to stop when I am driving down the road and starts screaming if
I don't!

Oh I could go on and on. I don't know where I have gone wrong. My
older two aren't perfect, but they would never run away in public,
scream & cry for hours (like 2 hours the other night before she finally
fell asleep) She ruins every night that we have together! I am so busy
"catering" to her needs, trying to keep her from losing it (like getting
her juice if she asks for it, so she doesn't flip out) that the other
two are really suffering and so am I. I am here alone at nights and
feel like a single parent, I don't know what to do! When DH calls from
work, he can't even hear me talk over her screaming. He doesn't
understand because she doesn't act that way for him. He says to put
her in her room, but when I do that she just screams and screams and
keeps running out. I have tried putting her back but it goes on for
hours, literally. I have tried the naughty chair, time out, an awards
system...I don't know what else to do! Most of the time in public I
can't remove her from the situation because we really need to be there!
Like at the mall tonight, we live 45 min from town and the older kids
have to have haircuts for school pics. It wasn't like I could just
take her home!

I don't know if this makes any sense, so please let me know if it
doesn't! But does anyone have any advice?
Thanks!




--
runninarnd3

runninarnd3 ) writes:
I appreciate all the great advice (and the "been there's") I don't
think I am unrealistic, I actually paid to have Chloe (3yo) nails
painted while the older ones got thier hair cut.

Fine if it works, but I find it hard to imagine an energetic
3yo enjoying sitting still to have nails painted. Even if she
enjoyed it she would probably feel like letting off steam
by running around in the mall afterwards.

Rather than telling her to stop when she runs around in the
mall, you can suggest what to do instead. Little kid's minds
work more in pictures and emotions than logic. There's no
such thing as an image in your mind of *not* doing something.
So when you say to not do someething (or to stop) the kid
just gets a blank image or an image of doing the thing.
But if you suggest an alternative, they get an image of that
alternative, and with little kids' impulsiveness, having the
image in their mind is halfway to doing it.

In the mall, when she's running, you could say "See if you
can walk like this!" and walk with big, funny steps, lifting
your feet high. After a few seconds, offer her another funny
way to walk. Challenge her to walk around you 3 times
while touching you with one hand the whole time. Etc.
Actually, it would be more effective do start doing these
things *before* she starts running, so it doesn't look like
a reward for running.

Bribes aren't worth it. They get you a few moments' peace,
but make things more difficult in future. Instead of bribes,
reward her for good behaviour which she did when she wasn't
expecting anything in return.

Funny that you mention a chiropractor. I mentioned chiropractic
treatment in my previous post, before I even read this post.
Well, if chiropractic treatment helped her when she was younger,
why not take her to a chiropractor again?

Having the spine out of whack can cause irritability.
It could possibly be the main reason for her
screaming and stuff. The spine may not actually
hurt; it just impedes the nerves and makes the
person easily frustrated over little things.

If chiropractic treatment helps, other spinal health
ptreatment can also help. Strengthening the muscles around
the spine helps the body push the bones back into place
on its own. For a 3yo I would suggest brachiating
(climbing on monkey bars, hanging from the hands and
going from bar to bar) though I'm not an expert. I think
brachiating would stretch the spine and also strengthen
the muscles, though falling is to be avoided if possible
as it could make spinal conditions worse. Of course, it
would be presented to the child as a fun thing to do
in the playground, not as something that's good for you.

I was wondering whether she was complaining in the car because
the car seat or sitting position was uncomfortable.
You could look into this yourself, or consult a
chiropractor or physiotherapist. You could ask your
daughter.

.... With this
she does okay - usually helping someone else do something, but then it
is like she can't STOP what she is doing. She wants to clean the table
all day, she wants to squirt windex until the bottle is empty.

That's fantastic! I guess she's the steady-on-course type.
You just need to plan ahead and give her tasks that you're
happy with her doing all day. You can give her a bottle with
a small amount of windex so it's OK if she empties it, or a full,
diluted bottle so she has more fun. You can remove anything
like towels and toilet paper from the bathroom and put her
in there with permission to spray everything.

Or see if you can find more tables and kitchen counters for
her to clean. Put her tendency to some use, and praise
her for it. What a great contribution to the family
from a 3yo.

I know that a good portion of my issues are my fault and I need to be
strong.

No, maybe it isn't your fault. See my previous post.
Anyway, no sense worrying about it.

I get sucked into the guilt trip of being gone all day, so it
makes it hard for me to be "tough" all night.

I know. I felt the same way. But feeling guilty
doesn't help. Either you believe you're doing something
wrong, in which case you can change your behviour
(e.g. quit your job), or you believe you're making
a reasonable decision, so it's better to stop feeling
guilty. It helps me to think of a sentence like this:
"I decided to (go to work, etc.), so I get the advantages
of doing that (list them) and I get the disadvantages
of doing that (list them) and I don't get the advantages
of not working (list them) and I don't get the
disadvantages of not working (list them)."
Any decision has advantages and disadvantages. By saying
"I decided to..." I feel strong, as if I have the right
to make a decision and it's OK if there are some
disadvantages.

You're also under the disadvantage of not enough sleep,
as is your husband too. So of course you won't always
do the perfect thing. You can have a goal of improving
without expecting yourself to be perfect.

I know, I know, I need
to just buckle down and do it. Another thing is that when she freaks
for hours and I am trying to do something about (no matter if I am
discipling or just trying to bribe her!) the older two are ignored.

I have an idea! Oh! Oh! (waving hand in air like a kid in school)
"doing something" about her freaking for hours can mean
ignoring her and (trying to pretend you are) enjoying doing
stuff with the other children. For example, you can close
her in her room, lean against the door, and play a card game
with the other kids right there in the hall. Or something.

Children have an instinctive drive to compete with siblings for
their parents' attention. So, when you ignore the older ones,
you are actually rewarding your 3yo for freaking and encouraging
the freaking behaviour to repeat on other days. You can think
of paying attention to the older ones during the freaking
episodes as a method of teaching Chloe not to freak.

Avoid bribes. Never bribe her for freaking. A desperate
parent bribing a child is like a person in poverty borrowing
money at 300 percent interest. The first one or two times
you avoid doing it, you suffer in the short term, but from
then on, if you can be disciplined and keep on avoiding it,
you're constantly better off. When you bribe her for
freaking, you encourage her to do it again.

I did it myself. I see other parents doing it. It's easy
to do it without quite realizing what you're doing is
bribing. Here's an example: The child has a fit about
something. Parent says: "I forgot to mention, but I was
thinking of taking you swimming this afternoon. If you
keep on having a fit I might not, though." This is a bribe.
It's a reward for bad behaviour. It's like paying a
blackmailer. The parent didn't intend it that way.
The parent honesetly forgot to mention the swimming
earlier. However, when you mention a nice thing like
swimming at the same time that the child is misbehaving,
it encourages the misbehaviour. Nice things like
swimming should be mentioned at times when the child
is behaving better than usual for a few minutes.
You don't have to tell the child that that's why you
picked that moment to mention it. There are lots
of nice things to mention during the day, like
"we're going to have a snack". Each of these can
be mentioned when the child is behaving well.
Then the child tends to learn (subconsciously)
to behave well, because interesting things seem
more likely to happen then.

I
feel so bad about this. Do you really think I can get her to go to bed
if I stick to it for a week or so?

If she needs chiropractic treatment or something in order
to be able to sleep, maybe not. And if in the past you've
tried to stick to it for a day or two and then given in,
then it will take longer than it would have before.
If you stick to it for a week and then give in, then
the next time it will probably take far longer than a
week. If you're going to stick to something, you need
to make a firm decision about it. Here's an idea: if you
do finally want to give up after a week or however long,
you can make a decision to change your plan, but not
implement that decision in the middle of a difficult
bedtime when she's up until midnight or something. You can
keep sticking to your plan for that night, and then the
next evening before bedtime, let her know that you've
decided to let her sleep with you or whatever.
That way she doesn't get the feeling that she's won
by screaming. Better yet, resolve to stick with
it for more than a week, or else calmly let her
start sleeping with you regularly now.

I think that would really help
since right now she is getting about 5 hours of sleep at night (since
she won't go to sleep) and has never taken a nap.

You and she both need more sleep. I'm sorry I don't
know how to get it though chiropractic looks hopeful.

When she was an infant she wouldn't sleep for more that 30 -40 minutes
at a time and after trying everything, I took her to an infant
chiropractor and after that adjustment she slept the whole night for
the first time ever! Any thoughts on this? Could something be out of
whack in her with the sleeping thing?

I will try to be more tough when I need to be and let some things go
(like I know I can really spare the extra 30 seconds it takes to let
her open the door)...and keep you guys posted. I am glad to find
somewhere & some one's who have good, *honest* advice. My DH makes it
seem like I am a bad mom (he always tell me I am too mean to the kids)

He tells you to just put her in her room, and then he
tells you you're too mean? He seems to me to be
contradicting himself. If you calmly implement
logical consequences that you've discussed with your
husband beforehand, he has nothing to complain
about. Yelling is to be avoided (see the
articles on yelling on my web page
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html

Dh is not getting enough sleep, so don't expect
too much from him. He can't think as clearly as
he would on more sleep.

or my mom who says it is just a stage and if I hang in there it will
pass.

From her point of view, that's what it is. She just has to
wait, and in a couple of months or years you'll be telling
her that phase is over. (Or weeks, if methods suggested
to you here work.) But you have to live through it
firsthand, and decide what to do in each individual
situation as it comes up. What does "hang in there" mean?
You're living a very difficult life. The choices
you make have an influence on your daughter's behaviour
(which doesn't mean it's your fault!)

I am truly worried that she is going to turn out to be an out of
control teen, adult etc and this is just crazy.

No sense worrying about that now! You have enough to
worry about already. Lots of 3yo's behave more or less
like her. For now, you just need to find ways to
handle a loud 3yo. And see the positive in her.
Connect with her positive traits. What you see in
her can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, good or bad.

"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
ups.com...

Stephanie wrote:
Yes it is minor point. And rather silly in this context. But that is what
my
brain was thinking when I wrote it. I was not trying to be a PITA.

LOL It happens to all of us. Gotta love that Mommy-brain! :-)

Cathy Weeks


It is so nice to know it is not just me!

"-L." ) writes:
Cathy Weeks wrote:
-L. wrote:

Then you don't stop the car, let her scream and if she continues, tell
her that if she doesn't stop screaming she loses a privledge when you
get home - no TV, no toy, no dessert, no candy - whatever.

I agreed with much of your advice, but not this one. Toddlers rarely
connect an effect with the cause, if they are separated in time. She
needs to come up with something more immediate.

Yes, you are right - I suppose it depends on the child, though. I have
met 3 year olds who *do* get it - very quickly.

That's fine, but it's better to have something more
immmediate and more logically connected to the
misbehaviour.

With some children, it doesn't matter that much
exactly what punishment you use. But with this
child, things are strained to the breaking point, so
it's more important to be careful.

One problem with taking away a privilege at a later
time is that it becomes more difficult to reward
the child for good behaviour that might happen to
come around the time you're scheduled to remove
the privilege. Another problem is that it can
lead to resentment in the child. For most children
the parent-child relationship may recover fine
from this, but with a child who screams a lot
already I wouldn't risk it.

Better to have loss of privileges *during* the
misbehaviour, if possible, and which the child
can fix at any moment by stopping the misbehaviour.

runninarnd3 ) writes:
In response to all of the above:

Well, it is now 10 pm and though I am exhausted and look like a
brunette carrot top (ooo, not so happy with the haircut!) tonight was a
better night than most. It was 29 degrees when I picked her up. I
watched her put her coat in her backpack, I told her "It is very cold
outside" she said "I don't cares Mom" so I let it go. So far so
good. Opening the heavy door to the daycare, I asked her how about we
do it together, worked great. I told her how great she was behaving
and that it was awesome. NO FITS. At all from daycare to home!

Fantastic!

I did have to put her in her room after bathtime, she refused to let me
rinse the soap out of her hair, so I had to dump water over her head.
She was not happy. I got her out of the bathtub and about 30 minutes
of 3 minute interval time out & screaming, she finally settled down.

What were the timeouts for? For screaming? Why not just
ignore the screams -- or treat her for soap in the eyes?
Or leave her in one long timeout until the screaming stops?
I sympathize with a child who screams when getting soap in
the eyes or even water poured over the head. It doesn't
seem that unreasonable a behaviour to me.

I
did have to give in to letting her pick out her pjs (not the warm
fuzzies I would like for a night like tonight, but ...) once she
settled down, I asked her to get the jammies, so I guess I asked for
that!

Far better to decide immediately to let her wear the
light pj's than to argue and then give in. If you
decide immediately, I don't call it "giving in" and
I don't think it hurts your parental authority like
giving in does. Even better: try to think ahead.
For example, keep light pj's and heavy ones in
different drawers or put the inappropriate ones
away in a different room before dinner. Then phrase
your request that she select pj's in a way that
sounds simple and inviting to her but that can't
be misinterpreted. Exact wording can make the
difference between a battle and no battle.
I know with a busy life it's hard to always
think ahead, but think of it as investing half
an hour early in the evening to avoid half an
hour of screaming later on.

Re getting hungry after lying down to go to sleep:
This may be partly to get attention and partly due
to low blood sugar, but in either case one solution
is to leave snacks and drinks where she can reach
them herself, e.g. right next to her bed, so she
doesn't have to call for you. Both of you may be
happier that way.

So far she has only had 1 juice and some crackers and is laying
down very well. Abeit in the playroom and not her bed. But one hurdle
at a time right? At first I tended to agree with not putting all the
restrictions in place at once, but it was rather easy when I reacted
more positively to good behaviors and wasn't soooo type A. She even
helped me make dinner, though she ate most of the cheese before it made
it into dinner.

I don't quite get it. It sound as if you're abandoning the
idea of only focusing on a few restrictions at once, just
because one day went relatively well (though with half an
hour of screaming). I advise you to stick to the plan.
Don't expect too much all at once or it may all break down.
Better to praise her for good behaviour than push her
to be perfect. If she's been good about something for a week,
then you can keep on expecting that of her and add a new
expectation. One day is too soon. (Actually, I'm a little
vague about what to do about misbehaviours you're not
focussing on. Maybe ignore them. Maybe continue to
do whatever you used to do. Maybe criticize but don't
punish. Maybe don't even ask in the first place.)

On another note, as if we didn't have enough excitment last night,
after I made my first post, one of our dogs had puppies! So I got
about three hours of sleep...but I was so excited and then sad as a
couple were stillborn.

Congratulations, and sorry about the stillborn ones.

Don't push your daughter too hard on a day when you
yourself have had very little sleep.

Things like that didn't used to effect me but
since I have my own births, I think the poor mom was sad. Anyway. I
think this might work, I just have to breath, breath breath and pick
my battles. How true that is!

"Stephanie" ) writes:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Stephanie" wrote:


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Cathy Weeks" wrote:


-L. wrote:

Then you don't stop the car, let her scream and if she continues, tell
her that if she doesn't stop screaming she loses a privledge when you
get home - no TV, no toy, no dessert, no candy - whatever.

I agreed with much of your advice, but not this one. Toddlers rarely
connect an effect with the cause, if they are separated in time. She
needs to come up with something more immediate.

I agree with this - I didn't agree with the taking away of privileges
either.

I would say "scream all you want, I'm not stopping." And let her
scream. Honestly, screaming without reward is likely to be punishment
in itself.

Take ear plugs. Use them.


Not in a car. You won't be able to hear emergency vehicles.

Depending on where you live, deaf people can drive. It is not illegal.
That's
why they have the flashing lights. And if the kid is screaming, you won't
be
able to hear the emergency vehicles anyway.


There is not much a deaf person can do about it. It would seem an acceptable
risk then. However, I would not add the risk of not hearing if I did not
have to.

IME, if there's a loud noise like screaming, putting in ear
plugs doesn't make much difference in being able to hear
other stuff, because it makes the screaming quieter as
well as the other stuff. I can still hear quite a lot
with ear plugs in. Lots of people drive with the car
windows closed; maybe that's a hazard because it cuts
down on being able to hear. If you put in ear plugs and
also open the window, you may be able to hear even better
than someone with the windows closed and no ear plugs.

"-L." ) writes:
I have noticed that
the more physical activity he gets, the better behaved he is.

I think this is very common with young children.
It's good to be proactive and build intense physical
activity into every part of the day (at least every
few hours). It can be lots of fun, too.
For one idea (though you need many) see the
"game for active child" on my web page
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html

Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
If I were caught in a bind and felt
like the only reasonable consequences I could implement would
have to be delayed a bit, I wouldn't even bother with a toddler,
but would consider going ahead with it for some preschoolers
(by the above definitions of those terms).

That's fine. Or, someone who is dealing with multiple
severe misbehaviour and is choosing to pick which
battles to fight might decide this is one to let
drop for now. I think you can only do so much
punishment before things start to break down and
punishment doesn't work so well and the child is
just constantly punishing the parent back. So it
can be better to choose those battles (at least at
first) where effective, immediately punishments
are available. (And always remembering to
emphasize the positive, spending positive time,
using praise etc.)

Catherine Woodgold wrote:


Better to have loss of privileges *during* the
misbehaviour, if possible, and which the child
can fix at any moment by stopping the misbehaviour.

That would be my remedy as well, but when you are in a car, there
really isn't anything to take away. That's why I suggested removing
something later. I sort of forgot the girl was only 3 when I wrote
that, too, but yes, what you saty makes sense immediacy.

-L.