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#1
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Teachers do get assaulted
Somebody would have to be living in a vacuum to think that teachers never get assaulted by students in highschool. We all hear stories about that kind of stuff in the news or read about it in the papers, or we might even know somebody who has direct experience with it. So therefore, whats to say that in schools that paddle highschool students, that the teachers wont get assaulted when they try to paddle the students? If teachers do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, than common sense would say that if anything, a paddling would provoke an assault against the paddling teacher. Much the same way that shoving or hitting somebody would provoke a fight. |
#2
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Teachers do get assaulted
I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that
teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. LaVonne fistoffury wrote: Somebody would have to be living in a vacuum to think that teachers never get assaulted by students in highschool. We all hear stories about that kind of stuff in the news or read about it in the papers, or we might even know somebody who has direct experience with it. So therefore, whats to say that in schools that paddle highschool students, that the teachers wont get assaulted when they try to paddle the students? If teachers do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, than common sense would say that if anything, a paddling would provoke an assault against the paddling teacher. Much the same way that shoving or hitting somebody would provoke a fight. |
#3
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Teachers do get assaulted
"Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." Teachers ARE assaulted by highschool students, and of course the kids end up in a court room. Will a paddling in highschool provoke an assault on a teacher? Lets look at that, just for the same of the educationally limited. 1. Teachers do not paddle students. Administrative staff do, i.e. a Principal. And then only after consultation with the Childs parents. 2. Now, do kids in highschool get paddled in school? Not in any school I have ever heard of, not even parochial schools. My own children have attended both public and parochial school over the years, and in all cases the policy of the schools is that there can be no corporal punishment in any form. Not even with the permission of the childs parent. The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. How is this "unfair"? Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. OK, lets give a 9mm pistol to every person who enters the school. Of course we are going to have to teach them how to use them, so lets start with mandatory weapons safety classes in kindergarten. Don't want anyone getting accidentally shot now do we? This way EVERYONE is on equal footing, everyone can both defend themselves from unwanted assaults as well as initiate those assaults against those they know are also equally armed, as is everyone around them. Is this not equality? Equal rights, no matter what the age? After all, it would only take a single years national budget to issue a gun to every single citizen out there, and then we would have not only a 100% armed citizenry, we would also have the worlds most polite society. Ron LaVonne fistoffury wrote: Somebody would have to be living in a vacuum to think that teachers never get assaulted by students in highschool. We all hear stories about that kind of stuff in the news or read about it in the papers, or we might even know somebody who has direct experience with it. So therefore, whats to say that in schools that paddle highschool students, that the teachers wont get assaulted when they try to paddle the students? If teachers do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, than common sense would say that if anything, a paddling would provoke an assault against the paddling teacher. Much the same way that shoving or hitting somebody would provoke a fight. |
#4
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Teachers do get assaulted
The Christian Science Monitor probably said it best a little over a
year ago. "When it comes to spanking, there's no such thing as a consensus in America's schools." The paper also called it "another symbol of the nation's red-blue divide. Most states that still allow the practice are in the South and Midwest." "Between 1980 and 2000, the number of students struck in US public schools declined from 1.4 million to 342,000, according to an analysis by the Center for Effective Discipline of data from the US Department of Education." What remains unclear is whether the numbers reflect a linear decline or a parabola approaching a nadir. Only New Jersey and Iowa ban paddling in private schools. The Monitor also pointed to the Le Moyne College Masters of Education program candidate who was expelled from the program last year for writing a paper endorsing paddling in schools. So much for academic freedom! There have also been some quirks in public schools. The Pike County, Ohio school system banned paddling in 1993 and reinstated it a little over a decade later. According to an interview with then principal of Western Elementary School in Latham, misbehavior in the school declined as a result. With the backing of the local newspaper and over the objection of the superintendent, Georgia's Lanier County Board of Education restored paddling to its schools about a year ago. Then, there was the case of the 18-year-old Texas student who got paddled in high school. The student argued that she could not be paddled because her parents had NOT given explicit permission. She attorney claimed assault. The school system argued that her parents didn't need to because she was still a student AND past her 18th birthday! While I could never find out what the outcome of her appeal, a lack of no-spank propaganda probably means the school district prevailed. At least that has been the judicial trend for well over a decade. Ron wrote: "Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." Teachers ARE assaulted by highschool students, and of course the kids end up in a court room. Will a paddling in highschool provoke an assault on a teacher? Lets look at that, just for the same of the educationally limited. 1. Teachers do not paddle students. Administrative staff do, i.e. a Principal. And then only after consultation with the Childs parents. 2. Now, do kids in highschool get paddled in school? Not in any school I have ever heard of, not even parochial schools. My own children have attended both public and parochial school over the years, and in all cases the policy of the schools is that there can be no corporal punishment in any form. Not even with the permission of the childs parent. The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. How is this "unfair"? Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. OK, lets give a 9mm pistol to every person who enters the school. Of course we are going to have to teach them how to use them, so lets start with mandatory weapons safety classes in kindergarten. Don't want anyone getting accidentally shot now do we? This way EVERYONE is on equal footing, everyone can both defend themselves from unwanted assaults as well as initiate those assaults against those they know are also equally armed, as is everyone around them. Is this not equality? Equal rights, no matter what the age? After all, it would only take a single years national budget to issue a gun to every single citizen out there, and then we would have not only a 100% armed citizenry, we would also have the worlds most polite society. Ron LaVonne fistoffury wrote: Somebody would have to be living in a vacuum to think that teachers never get assaulted by students in highschool. We all hear stories about that kind of stuff in the news or read about it in the papers, or we might even know somebody who has direct experience with it. So therefore, whats to say that in schools that paddle highschool students, that the teachers wont get assaulted when they try to paddle the students? If teachers do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, than common sense would say that if anything, a paddling would provoke an assault against the paddling teacher. Much the same way that shoving or hitting somebody would provoke a fight. |
#5
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Teachers do get assaulted
Opinions wrote:
The Christian Science Monitor probably said it best a little over a year ago. "When it comes to spanking, there's no such thing as a consensus in America's schools." The paper also called it "another symbol of the nation's red-blue divide. Most states that still allow the practice are in the South and Midwest." I have a lovely surprise for you at the end of your delusional wishful meanderings, lil 'o'. Read on, do please. "Between 1980 and 2000, the number of students struck in US public schools declined from 1.4 million to 342,000, according to an analysis by the Center for Effective Discipline of data from the US Department of Education." What remains unclear is whether the numbers reflect a linear decline or a parabola approaching a nadir. "parabola approaching a nadir?" It's not the least unclear you are bonkers and sit around ruminating and fantasizing a great deal about a world of happily paddling parents and teachers and submissive frightened subservient children. You ignore that along with those come many that will strike back when they are able. They are our criminals and violent madmen and madwomen. Only New Jersey and Iowa ban paddling in private schools. Sad, isn't it. It makes it appear, regardless of facts, that schools are being created to intimidate and terrify children. Bad PR for all private schools..as many do NOT allow paddling regardless of state law. The Monitor also pointed to the Le Moyne College Masters of Education program candidate who was expelled from the program last year for writing a paper endorsing paddling in schools. So much for academic freedom! There have also been some quirks in public schools. "Quirk" would be a very good label for what follows. The Pike County, Ohio school system banned paddling in 1993 and reinstated it a little over a decade later. According to an interview with then principal of Western Elementary School in Latham, misbehavior in the school declined as a result. All program launching is followed shortly with the good news that 'it works.' Time will tell, as it has on paddling. With the backing of the local newspaper and over the objection of the superintendent, Georgia's Lanier County Board of Education restored paddling to its schools about a year ago. Then, there was the case of the 18-year-old Texas student who got paddled in high school. The student argued that she could not be paddled because her parents had NOT given explicit permission. She attorney claimed assault. The school system argued that her parents didn't need to because she was still a student AND past her 18th birthday! While I could never find out what the outcome of her appeal, a lack of no-spank propaganda probably means the school district prevailed. At least that has been the judicial trend for well over a decade. ......snip... http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6613146/ As paddling in public schools decreases we find that violence in those schools is also going down, extremely. Odd, isn't it? "Overall in 1992 there were more than 3.4 million crimes in school against students between 12 and 18, the report estimated. That included more than 2.2 million thefts — by far the most common serious crime in school — and over 1.1 million violent crimes. By 2002, the report found the total number had dropped to 1.7 million crimes: just over 1 million thefts and about 659,000 violent crimes." Must be something in the water. 0:- You might want to review some of the "feminazi propaganda" on the subject of bullying and paddling in schools. 0;- http://www.stophitting.com/answers/ Then there's this charmer, with accompanying pictures that according to LAW are the same as spanking...protected as the caregivers right to inflict. But thankfully the truth is also told on this page above: " Myth: US Schools that allow CP perform better than non-paddling US schools because they have “better discipline.” Truth: States that have abolished CP perform better than states that allow paddling in school. Not one of Newsweek’s 2003 best schools in the US, for example, was a paddling school. " -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#6
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Teachers do get assaulted
Ron wrote: "Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." Teachers ARE assaulted by highschool students, and of course the kids end up in a court room. Will a paddling in highschool provoke an assault on a teacher? Lets look at that, just for the same of the educationally limited. 1. Teachers do not paddle students. Administrative staff do, i.e. a Principal. And then only after consultation with the Childs parents. You are not only grossly misinformed, but you didn't read my post. Here is what I said: "The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators...." Wo we agree on this. However, if you look at the laws in Texas, you will find that Texas administrators and teachers can paddle without parental consent. It is good to have facts, don't you think? 2. Now, do kids in highschool get paddled in school? Not in any school I have ever heard of, not even parochial schools. My own children have attended both public and parochial school over the years, and in all cases the policy of the schools is that there can be no corporal punishment in any form. Not even with the permission of the childs parent. Your experience is only your experience. You have not experienced laws in every state. You need information. The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. How is this "unfair"? The law is unfair because corporal punishment of anyone over the age of 18 is considered cruel and usual by federal law, and is legal assault and battery for anyone over the age of 18, for any reason other than a life threatening circumstance that could not be resolved another way. Laws exempt children from protection from the very acts that are considered physical assault and battery if the child is over the age of 18. That is what is unfair. Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. OK, lets give a 9mm pistol to every person who enters the school. Of course we are going to have to teach them how to use them, so lets start with mandatory weapons safety classes in kindergarten. Don't want anyone getting accidentally shot now do we? This way EVERYONE is on equal footing, everyone can both defend themselves from unwanted assaults as well as initiate those assaults against those they know are also equally armed, as is everyone around them. Now, what is the point of this? A smoke screen, perhaps? We are not talking about equal access, we are talking about equal protection under the law. Can you understand the difference? Is this not equality? Equal rights, no matter what the age? After all, it would only take a single years national budget to issue a gun to every single citizen out there, and then we would have not only a 100% armed citizenry, we would also have the worlds most polite society. Good grief. Your debate is ridiculous. And, there are probably gun lobbiests that would agee with you. This has nothing to do with exempting children from physical assault and battery laws. And hitting a child is physical assault and battery, the same as it is for you or me. The only difference is that we have legal protection -- three year olds do not. LaVonne Ron LaVonne fistoffury wrote: Somebody would have to be living in a vacuum to think that teachers never get assaulted by students in highschool. We all hear stories about that kind of stuff in the news or read about it in the papers, or we might even know somebody who has direct experience with it. So therefore, whats to say that in schools that paddle highschool students, that the teachers wont get assaulted when they try to paddle the students? If teachers do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, than common sense would say that if anything, a paddling would provoke an assault against the paddling teacher. Much the same way that shoving or hitting somebody would provoke a fight. |
#7
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Teachers do get assaulted
"Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: "Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." Teachers ARE assaulted by highschool students, and of course the kids end up in a court room. Will a paddling in highschool provoke an assault on a teacher? Lets look at that, just for the same of the educationally limited. 1. Teachers do not paddle students. Administrative staff do, i.e. a Principal. And then only after consultation with the Childs parents. You are not only grossly misinformed, but you didn't read my post. Here is what I said: Grossly? Hardly madam. Besides, we already know your position and could most likely present your entire argument to a given situation without ever having to consult you. "The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators...." Wo we agree on this. However, if you look at the laws in Texas, you will find that Texas administrators and teachers can paddle without parental consent. It is good to have facts, don't you think? And the link to the law is where? 2. Now, do kids in highschool get paddled in school? Not in any school I have ever heard of, not even parochial schools. My own children have attended both public and parochial school over the years, and in all cases the policy of the schools is that there can be no corporal punishment in any form. Not even with the permission of the childs parent. Your experience is only your experience. You have not experienced laws in every state. You need information. Possible, but then again you have not provided very much now have you? The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. How is this "unfair"? The law is unfair because corporal punishment of anyone over the age of 18 is considered cruel and usual by federal law, and is legal assault and battery for anyone over the age of 18, for any reason other than a life threatening circumstance that could not be resolved another way. Laws exempt children from protection from the very acts that are considered physical assault and battery if the child is over the age of 18. That is what is unfair. Nice opinion. A bit light on fact though. Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. OK, lets give a 9mm pistol to every person who enters the school. Of course we are going to have to teach them how to use them, so lets start with mandatory weapons safety classes in kindergarten. Don't want anyone getting accidentally shot now do we? This way EVERYONE is on equal footing, everyone can both defend themselves from unwanted assaults as well as initiate those assaults against those they know are also equally armed, as is everyone around them. Now, what is the point of this? A smoke screen, perhaps? We are not talking about equal access, we are talking about equal protection under the law. Can you understand the difference? Quite. Equal access and equal protection are both the responsibility of the citizen, not government. The difference is minimal and they both are bound together in a civilized society. The point was dearie, that "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. Use your imagination for a few seconds and think about the proposal. If everyone is trained in the use of firearms from an early age, owns a firearm, and may be carrying one at any time legally, just how polite are you and your fellow citizens likely to be toward them? How many simple assaults will there be? How many husbands are likely to beat on a wife that is carrying a Glock? You ask for the law to provide equal protection. The law cannot do this. Not in any state or country on the planet. Every single law in existence is prejudicial against someone somewhere, or prevents the free expression of some citizen. The question we should be asking is if the law is best for the greatest number of people, or if it places an undue burden on a majority of the general population. Is this not equality? Equal rights, no matter what the age? After all, it would only take a single years national budget to issue a gun to every single citizen out there, and then we would have not only a 100% armed citizenry, we would also have the worlds most polite society. Good grief. Your debate is ridiculous. And, there are probably gun lobbiests that would agee with you. Not as ridiculous as you think. And certainly no more or less ridiculous than the argument you attempt. An extremely wise man once said "The first sign of a failing society can be found in the level of politeness of its citizens". This has nothing to do with exempting children from physical assault and battery laws. And hitting a child is physical assault and battery, the same as it is for you or me. The only difference is that we have legal protection -- three year olds do not. LaVonne I guess its down to definitions now isn't it. Assault laws in this country already protect children. Parental discipline is not considered assault. You consider CP to be assault, "hitting" to use your term. I do not. The majority of the citizens agree with me, as do the laws and law makers of our nation. This is not likely to change. Time to face that fact. In every country on the planet the government considers itself to be "in situ" parents to its citizens. Children most specifically. Our educational system being a part of that government strongly believes this, as is shown by its actions and its demands on the citizens. Therefore it is not really all that odd that our nations educators wish to provide for themselves the rights of the parent in matters of child discipline (a situation I do not agree with) within specific limits. Each state placing different limits of course, depending on the ability and willingness of its citizens to force those limits through legislative actions. In the 1800's teachers commonly applied CP to disruptive students without parental permission, it was considered appropriate and within the purview of the educational system. Times have certainly changed, and the invasiveness of the educational system towards its citizenry has only increased, not decreased. A spanking and it was done, in the 1800's. Now we get letters, demands for our time and presence at the school, court orders and legal fee's, time-out tables in lunch rooms (to ostracize the children publicly and thereby provoking emotional damage in the children), and a whole host of more "humane" methods of enforcing discipline that may or may not have the desired affect but which have been shown to be less effective and more damaging to the child simply because of its reduced effectiveness and its greater length of time required to obtain results of any kind, the intended results or not. Ron |
#8
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Teachers do get assaulted
I don't think anyone who is opposed to paddling minors has said that
teachers don't get assaulted by students in high school, or that paddling a student wouldn't provoke a "fight." The problem is with the law in this country that allows students to be paddled by teachers and school administrators. And that unfair law is on the side of the teachers and the school administrators. Work to change the law, and provide the same protection for individuals under the age of 18 from physical assault that every legal adult in the USA enjoys. It's not a matter of whether paddling a high school student would provoke a fight. Paddling a high school student is legal in many states -- physical retaliation is assault. So, the student suffers twice. Let's make things fair. People that are in favor of paddling "minors" in school should be aware that teachers and adminstrators can and do get assaulted, regardless if its legal to do so or not. I would think though, that most everybody would be aware of that, it is a well known fact that teachers and administrators do get assaulted. Even if the teacher or administrator is legally allowed to paddle and even if the student who fights back gets charged with assault for doing so, does that make it a good idea? It is legal for a law abiding citizen of the US to be out in the streets in public areas. It is illegal for hoodlums to assault people on the streets. Nevertheless, does that make it a good idea to hang out in bad areas even if youre legally allowed to? Does hanging out in such a bad area mean that you won't get assaulted because its illegal? If you do hang out in such an area, get assaulted and injured, and the hoodlum gets arrested and goes to jail, does that change the fact that you did get assaulted and might possibly end up in the hospital, and will arresting and convicting the hoodlum erase the damage? That happened to a friend of mine, he was in a bad area in town, he got hit over the head with a pipe, and while the police did get the thugs that attacked him he nevertheless did end up going to the hospital having suffered brain damage. The same thing with highschool paddling. If a highschool administrator tries to paddle a student and the student beats up the administrator and the administrator goes to the hospital, even if the student gets arrested and convicted, it will not change the fact that the administrator got beaten up and went to the hospital and thus suffered because he tried to paddle the student. It being illegal to assault administrators does not mean it doesn't happen as anybody who reads the paper or watches the news would know. Trying to paddle highschool students will make assaults on school administrators all the worse, it would be like frequently going into bad areas in town even if you have the legal right to do so, it makes your chance of getting assaulted by hoodlums all the worse. |
#9
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Teachers do get assaulted
Teachers ARE assaulted by highschool students, and of course the kids end up
in a court room. Will a paddling in highschool provoke an assault on a teacher? Lets look at that, just for the same of the educationally limited. 1. Teachers do not paddle students. Administrative staff do, i.e. a Principal. And then only after consultation with the Childs parents. When I talked about teachers being assaulted, what I meant was teachers, administrators, principals, ect. Especially considering the fact that administrators sometimes double as teachers. My point is, since they do get assaulted, and we know very well that they do, that trying to paddle highschool students will just provoke them into assault all the more. 2. Now, do kids in highschool get paddled in school? Not in any school I have ever heard of, not even parochial schools. My own children have attended both public and parochial school over the years, and in all cases the policy of the schools is that there can be no corporal punishment in any form. Not even with the permission of the childs parent. Well I know for a fact that it does happen in highschools and if you dont know that than you havn't done your research. How often it happens in highschools I wouldn't know but I would think not that often simply for the reason that it would result in assaults against the administrators who do it. I can give you stories and websites if you want to see how it happens in highschool. |
#10
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Teachers do get assaulted
Only New Jersey and Iowa ban paddling in private schools.
As I understand it, if CP is illegal in a state, than its illegal, pure and simple, in public and private schools. I dont think states such as California, Massachussets, or New York, where CP is illegal, would allow it in a private school any more than they would in a public school. Then, there was the case of the 18-year-old Texas student who got paddled in high school. The student argued that she could not be paddled because her parents had NOT given explicit permission. She attorney claimed assault. The school system argued that her parents didn't need to because she was still a student AND past her 18th birthday! While I could never find out what the outcome of her appeal, a lack of no-spank propaganda probably means the school district prevailed. At least that has been the judicial trend for well over a decade. If youre talking about the case of the student Jessica Serafin being paddled by the principal Brett Whittaker, than its the case Im familiar with. The principal should've faced criminal charges. From what I read about it, the principal and some assistants restrained the girl. They manhandled her, which is illegal regardless if CP is legal or not. I wish I was a student in that school. I wouldve marched down to the office and made the principal and his assistants regret the days they were born. |
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