OT - Potty training - can it be child-led? (xpost)

Welches wrote:

Cathy Weeks wrote in message
om...

Hi all,
My daughter is almost two, and all of a sudden has started asking to
sit on the potty. She prefers to do it fully clothed, and while one
of her parents are sitting on the toilet, but I figured it was time to
start reading up on the topic.

I don't think it's too early. Dd#1 asked for the potty and I followed her.
She was trained in about a week at 21 months. Would have been quicker I
think if I hadn't gone out on the second day and put her in pull-ups.
She had been asking for the potty for 2-3 months before I thought I'd give
training a try, because she had older friends who used it.

Really not trying to be judgemental...bear with me.
IF your child were asking for books, or climbing toys, would you put
them off for 2-3 months because someone said they may not be ready?
I know, it may be a weird sort of comparison, but if the kid is ASKING
for the potty, or mimicking you at the toilet, could someone please
explain to me why that wouldn't indicate readiness??? And what is the
dread consequense of offering too early? (with books they couldn't read
them for "real" and with climbing toys they may not be able to lift
themselves onto it, but you're alREADY changing diapers... ;-) )

Dawn

Why HAS it become such an enormous deal? I can't help wondering who's
funding the research I keep reading about that shows toddlers aren't ready
until they are 2.5-3 years old. It's not Proctor and Gamble is it by any
chance? Or am I too cynical?

Maybe seeing vast number of toddlers who simply are NOT ready. I work at a
preschool. I see scads of 2's in diapers. I see very few 2's who are ready to
be out of diapers. I see plenty of mothers of 2's trying over and over to train
those 2's without success.
Yeah, maybe if the toddlers were with their parents 24/7, and the parents had
the motivation of having to wash cloth diapers on a washboard and boil them on
the stove (as recently as 40-50 years ago, few people had automatic washing
machines in their homes!), it would be worth the intense effort needed, and
dealing with very frequent accidents.

But since it's really no big deal to have kids in diapers until they can use
the potty reliably and independently (which,for MOST kids, doesn't happen until
2 1/2 or 3, or even later), what's the big deal about waiting?
I'd much rather change the kids' diapers than change all their clothes
(including thier shoes and socks....) and the puddles on the floor when they
have accidents.

(Many of the preschool kids at 2-2 1/2 love to 'go potty'... but that means
just sitting, or standing in front of the toilet and then flushing. They never
actually produce anything. Few of them are yet able to even tell me reliably
if their diapers are dirty!)





Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

(Cathy Weeks) wrote in message . com...

Now, long ago, after watching a family member go through a difficult
potty training, where using the toilet turned into a power struggle
(and as soon as they gave up - she decided to use the toilet), Chris
and I decided that we would let Kivi train herself. When she was
ready, she would ask US to train. The reasons go back further than
that - Chris's mom had a lot of difficulty potty training him, and we
decided that potty training should be child-led.

Cathy,

Go with your instincts - it seems as though she is interested, so just
see where she takes you.

I, OTOH, have a 3 1/2 year old that has never shown any interest
whatsoever in the toilet, potty training, getting out of diapers, etc.
Not interested at all in incentives, rewards, treats, etc. I am not
so sure how long I should "wait" until he demonstrates any desire to
move toward potty training.

Unfortunately for me, it looks like I will have two kids in diapers
for awhile - exactly what I had wanted to avoid!

Sharon
Mom to James 6.2.00
EDD #2 5 December

Are there any good potty training books or resources out there that
follow our philosophy?

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

I don't know about any books with that philosophy as I never read any
at all. I have made plenty of mistakes potty training in my time
though. First was listening to my well-meaning but totally wrong mom
and grandma who insisted I train my dd#1 as soon as she turned 2. Long
story short. Didn't work, we ended up putting it off and she trained
just after 3. Turned out she had a small bladder and wasn't night
trained until after she was 6. Next child trained just after 3
also-he was pretty easy, the next was pushing 4 (that was a
nightmare-I waited too long to encourage him), the next was 2 1/2 and
I'm currently working on my almost 3 year old.
This is what I have figured out in my 10 years of diapers and potty
training. You have a window of time. In that window your child will
have the physical ability to control bowel and bladder but won't yet
have the will to show YOU that they can control it by not using the
toilet when needed. In this time period you can gently encourage your
child to use the toilet and they will run with it, no pushing, no
tears, everyone is happy. Wait too long and the child will see the
toilet as a control issue, too soon and they aren't physically
ready-both scenarios are pure misery for everyone. The trick is
FINDING that window. For my children that has been between 2 1/2 and
3. If you get them at just the right time potty training will be easy.
My $.10 on potty training
K-

"Rosie" wrote in message ...
"Dawn Lawson" :

It's not as big a deal as soooo many people seem to make it.

Why HAS it become such an enormous deal? I can't help wondering who's
funding the research I keep reading about that shows toddlers aren't ready
until they are 2.5-3 years old. It's not Proctor and Gamble is it by any
chance? Or am I too cynical?

Welllll...I can't speak for most people, (and I agree that it has
become a big deal) but for us, there is a history of traumatic potty
training. My husband's mom *still* talks about the time he ran down
the hall with poop falling onto the carpet, and she shudders. Chris
doesn't remember it, but I definitely get the idea that it wasn't a
fun experience.

Top it all off, both my husband and I were bedwetters, and though
that's a different issue, we both grew up with all *those* stories,
and remember it ourselves, too.

My cousin's little girl was also a problem. They read the books, let
her run around naked, and she would hold it for 6 hours, refusing to
use the toilet. She was older at the time - 3 years old. She'd start
to cry and beg for her diaper. It was a total power struggle, and I
told them more than once to just give it up, that she wasn't ready
(emotionally anyway). Eventually they did, and two weeks later, she
asked her mother why she didn't want her to use diapers, and her mom
said "I'm just tired of changing your diapers. But if you want to go
longer, that's ok". She thought it over, and 3 days later asked to
use the potty, and she was trained in something like 3 days. It was
terrible leading up to that, though.

So, I guess I'm a bit hyper-sensitive.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Dawn Lawson wrote in message news:irOub.436983$9l5.295329@pd7tw2no...

My guess is that she's still a bit young for this - she is starting to
show some signs of readiness: She tells me when she poops, and is
asking to be changed (a huge change from 18 months of HATING to be
changed), but she isn't showing other signs - she doesn't hold her pee
consciously as far as I can tell, or even understand the concept of
waiting. My guess is that she's starting to be aware of the function
of the toilet and is copying us. I got the potty out because she
*asked* to poop on the potty (I about fell over in shock!).

Good grief,exactly WHAT would indicate readiness if not all this??? Why
is she too young? Plenty of kids have historically been at least
partially trained by this age.

Well, one of the big ones, is going long periods of time (an hour or
two) while staying dry - like the bladder waits longer before the urge
to go hits, or something. She goes pretty frequently.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Naomi Pardue wrote:

Why HAS it become such an enormous deal? I can't help wondering who's
funding the research I keep reading about that shows toddlers aren't ready
until they are 2.5-3 years old. It's not Proctor and Gamble is it by any
chance? Or am I too cynical?


Maybe seeing vast number of toddlers who simply are NOT ready. I work at a
preschool. I see scads of 2's in diapers. I see very few 2's who are ready to
be out of diapers. I see plenty of mothers of 2's trying over and over to train
those 2's without success.
Yeah, maybe if the toddlers were with their parents 24/7, and the parents had
the motivation of having to wash cloth diapers on a washboard and boil them on
the stove (as recently as 40-50 years ago, few people had automatic washing
machines in their homes!), it would be worth the intense effort needed, and
dealing with very frequent accidents.

Whot? I'm not that old, my mom always had an automatic washer, my
siblings are younger than me by up to 8 years, and we all trained before
2. I don't feel scarred by the experience, and the stories we relate
wrt potty training seem pretty universal even to those who train later
or wait for Jr to insist on using the toilet.

My DS uses the toilet and has for 8 months now, though at 14mo ,he's
just starting to have language skills and mobility, so I anticipate it
will move more quickly now as he can (and occasionally does) take
himself to the bathroom. He's certainly never had trauma about sitting
on the toilet.

*shrug* I'm not sure we can chalk it up to washing facilities or
trauma. I'm curious why you think 40-50 years ago people didn't want to
wash diapers but would put in the "intense effort" and "deal..with very
freuqent accidents"...I would think if it didn't pay off, they wouldn't
bother. I have a feeling that earlier potty training methods have been
lost from the parenting skill set, and that it was occasionally
traumatic, but so it is today...how many times have we had posters whose
children will refuse to use a toilet to the point of constipation, be
fearful of flushing body wastes, or ask for a diaper to have a bowel
movement? Certainly, the parents I speak to who are or have potty
trained earlier than 2yo don't speak of horrible angst associated with
it, and most don't seem to have had "intense effort" involved.

I don't see why it has to be either child led or cruel. That seems to
be the options offered. Why can't the parent direct and lead, and not
force or traumatise? Why is this much different than learning to eat
with a fork or learn colors? We expose kids to THOSE kinds of skills
far earlier than we expect mastery, and we shape their behaviours to end
up with the "finished" result, but can see basic skills developing quite
early (DS eats fairly neatly with spoon and fork, and has for ages, etc)
But somehow with potty training parents get all wrapped round the axle
and if it won't start nearly perfectly, they won't even make an attempt,
nor incorporate it into a daily normalcy.

Personally, I'm plenty glad to have been spared the years of poopy
diapers with no more effort than using diapers, really. Apparently, YMMV.

Dawn

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:09:18 -0500, "Sophie"
wrote:

Sophie
#4 due 7/18/04

Hey Sophie....I didn't know you were already expecting #4. Congrats!

--Lisabell

In article ,
LisaBell wrote:

Hey Sophie....I didn't know you were already expecting #4. Congrats!

I don't hink I knew either, but I have a terrible memory -- all the best,
Sophie!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

"Dawn Lawson" wrote in message
news:M1Rub.438050$9l5.2367@pd7tw2no...

I know, it may be a weird sort of comparison, but if the kid is ASKING
for the potty, or mimicking you at the toilet, could someone please
explain to me why that wouldn't indicate readiness???


Well, this is an extreme example, but just because DS loves to play with the
food processer pieces (minus the blades) on the kitchen floor, and mimics my
cooking behaviors doesn't mean he's ready to plug the thing in and use it,
or work at the stove. Or when he plays 'baby' does that mean I should let
him start changing DD's diaper?

Kids love to mimic and pretend they're adults. It should be encouraged and
enjoyed up to a point, but it doesn't *necessarily* mean they're ready to
actually do those things. Some kids are ready to start potty training when
they start to mimic, and that's great. Others (like mine) are happy to mimic
a day or two and then just aren't interested anymore. Should I force him to
sit on the potty? Would that make him want to go?

--
Jodi
SAHM to Oliver (2 years, 9 months) & Arwen (7 months)