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#1
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical
discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336 mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand. Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234) This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study finds it to be harmful to children? LaVonne Reference: Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A., Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K., Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N. (2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December 2005. 76(6), 1234-1246. |
#2
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
So, LaVonne, what about the non-cp alternatives? How do they compare to spanking under the same statistical analysis? I have checked the archives and CAN'T FIND them. Help me, please! ;-) Doan On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336 mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand. Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234) This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study finds it to be harmful to children? LaVonne Reference: Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A., Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K., Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N. (2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December 2005. 76(6), 1234-1246. |
#3
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
Doan wrote: So, LaVonne, what about the non-cp alternatives? How do they compare to spanking under the same statistical analysis? I have checked the archives and CAN'T FIND them. Help me, please! ;-) In other words you don't wish to debate the information presented. How typical. 0:- Doan On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336 mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand. Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234) This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study finds it to be harmful to children? LaVonne Reference: Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A., Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K., Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N. (2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December 2005. 76(6), 1234-1246. |
#4
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
I had presumed, LaVonne, that since all the pro spankers and advocates
for CP that post here were scrupulously honest 0;- that when they claimed that the reason for the effectiveness or the use of CP being based on it's appropriatness within a culture. Seems they didn't do their homework. Surprise. "Although race or ethnicity might be conceptualized as a proxy for culture, and previous research has offered hypotheses about why race or ethnicity might moderate the link between physical discipline and children's adjustment, extant studies have not empirically examined these possible explanations." Darn. Kane |
#5
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
Did you read the whole study, LaVonne? "One limitation of this study is that the sampled countries differ along a number of dimensions that are not reflected specifically in the analyses, even though country-level effects were modeled in the multilevel regressions. One dimension is the culture's predominant religious affiliation, which has been found to be importantly related to parents' discipline strategies even within the United States (e.g., Gershoff et al., 1999). A second dimension is notable laws involving family life (e.g., the one-child policy in China). A third dimension is socioeconomic resources available in a culture. A fourth dimension is other cultural norms that are distinct from, yet related to, physical discipline (e.g., views about children as property, beliefs about aggression generally, how parenting fits with religious beliefs). These dimensions may affect how normative parents within a country believe physical discipline to be. It is also possible that these dimensions are related to parents' use of physical discipline without being related to the links between parents' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. Future research should attempt to unpack these elements to investigate what, in particular, are the important cultural features that are related to differences in discipline strategies and the effects of these strategies on children's adjustment. Future research should also examine different aspects of children's experience of discipline such as the duration of the discipline and its severity." Doan On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336 mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand. Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234) This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study finds it to be harmful to children? LaVonne Reference: Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A., Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K., Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N. (2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December 2005. 76(6), 1234-1246. |
#6
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
LaVonne:
This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. Did you find anything in the study that would suggest physical discipline is NOT harmful? Or that the findings are invalidated by the suggestions that more study is needed? Or the standard declaration of the limitations of the study making the findings invalid? How many research reports have you read that didn't say, usually in introduction or conclusion, that "more study is indicated...." or words to that effect? And would you believe any part of a study that did not enumerate the limitations of the methods? Ever seen a social science research study (experimental or survey) that didn't so proceed? And all survey's suffer from similar limitations. This one appeared to have considerable scope though. Many countries and many families. Hard to ignore such information...at least for honest people. 0:- Good research always leaves the door open and the welcome mat out this way to invite peer review. Heard any negative peer review so far? I'd be interested in the arguments about this survey study. I'm sure we'll see some lively debate in the social science field over this one. The U.N. of course will likely check in at some point. The only garb...s'cuse me, "reports" I've seen that fail to examine it's own limitations are the babblings of those such as Lazerlere and various books by Dobson and similar. The title of this report, "Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator." sets the limits, and provides the context very well. And it establishes that "normativeness," -- that is how much physical discipline is accepted or not in a culture -- does not account for negative outcomes. There is still negative outcome despite high levels of acceptance of the practice CP. Of course something those closer to child and family issue professionally have known for some time. Even where everyone beats their child and everyone agrees it's right to do there are still undesirable social outcomes, individually and collectively. These who are seeing those negative outcomes first hand find such reseach highly redundant and to smile knowingly over. But then, the policy makers need such information to consider changes in law or new legislation. I'm looking forward to sending some copies to various lawmakers when we have some peer review and response to it to consider for a more balanced presentation. Kane |
#7
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
No, Kane, it doesn't seem that they did their homework. And then there
is the issue of understanding the homework???? LaVonne 0:- wrote: I had presumed, LaVonne, that since all the pro spankers and advocates for CP that post here were scrupulously honest 0;- that when they claimed that the reason for the effectiveness or the use of CP being based on it's appropriatness within a culture. Seems they didn't do their homework. Surprise. "Although race or ethnicity might be conceptualized as a proxy for culture, and previous research has offered hypotheses about why race or ethnicity might moderate the link between physical discipline and children's adjustment, extant studies have not empirically examined these possible explanations." Darn. Kane |
#8
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
I'll respond in sections.
0:- wrote: LaVonne: This study clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety and aggresstion. Did you find anything in the study that would suggest physical discipline is NOT harmful? No. Or that the findings are invalidated by the suggestions that more study is needed? Or the standard declaration of the limitations of the study making the findings invalid? Absolutely not. How many research reports have you read that didn't say, usually in introduction or conclusion, that "more study is indicated...." or words to that effect? Most research indicates that more study is indicated. That's because replication adds to the strength of the results. I wonder if a study would even been published, in any discipline, that didn't conclude with the need for more study. I doubt it. The more empirical data, from study after study, the more faith one can put into the study. That's what's so wonderful about all the spanking research, that goes back decades. Nothing that I have read, nor that anyone on this ng has has posted, even suggests that spanking is preferrable over other methods, or that spanking doesn't carry harm to the victim. And would you believe any part of a study that did not enumerate the limitations of the methods? No. Ever seen a social science research study (experimental or survey) that didn't so proceed? Not one that was published in a peer reviewed research journal. And all survey's suffer from similar limitations. This one appeared to have considerable scope though. Many countries and many families. Hard to ignore such information...at least for honest people. 0:- The scope of this study was incredibly impressive, and was groundbreaking research. Good research always leaves the door open and the welcome mat out this way to invite peer review. Heard any negative peer review so far? No. I'd be interested in the arguments about this survey study. I'm sure we'll see some lively debate in the social science field over this one. The U.N. of course will likely check in at some point. We'll see! The only garb...s'cuse me, "reports" I've seen that fail to examine it's own limitations are the babblings of those such as Lazerlere and various books by Dobson and similar. Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson never entered the field. He's never researched or written anything with a sound scientific base. Dobson writes fiction, and his books have no references to his claims. The title of this report, "Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a Moderator." sets the limits, and provides the context very well. I agree And it establishes that "normativeness," -- that is how much physical discipline is accepted or not in a culture -- does not account for negative outcomes. There is still negative outcome despite high levels of acceptance of the practice CP. This is the crux of this study, Kane. Regardless of the culturally "normativeness", physical discipline still resulted in negative outcomes over non-physical discipline. Of course something those closer to child and family issue professionally have known for some time. Some child and family issue professionals, Kane. We have hitters is that field as well. Even where everyone beats their child and everyone agrees it's right to do there are still undesirable social outcomes, individually and collectively. And this is what is so amazing about this research. Norms do not negate the negative effects of physical punishment. These who are seeing those negative outcomes first hand find such reseach highly redundant and to smile knowingly over. But then, the policy makers need such information to consider changes in law or new legislation. I'm looking forward to sending some copies to various lawmakers when we have some peer review and response to it to consider for a more balanced presentation. We already have "peer review" for without "peer review" the study would never have been accepted for publication in Child Development journal. What may now happen is a response in Child Development to the research. LaVonne Kane |
#9
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson never entered the field. Really, LaVonne? Since when has Dr. Lazerlere been "discounted in the field of academic study"? Is this another one of your baseless claims? First, you claimed that Dr. Baumrind "abandoned" Authoritative Parenting and now you claimed this! Do you always have to lie to further your anti-spanking agenda? What worth is an agenda when it is bases on LIES? Doan |
#10
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Interesting New Research on Spanking
Doan wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote: Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson never entered the field. Really, LaVonne? Since when has Dr. Lazerlere been "discounted in the field of academic study"? RRRR R R R R....yah got to be kidding. The rebuttal buried him. In fact Durrant's summary describes YOUR common tactics, though you aren't half as good at it as Lazerlere. YOu may read a summary at this URL: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&cd=10 http://tinyurl.com/nqk4n You may read the entire comments on Lazerlere at Dr. Durrant's website at the URL: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/hu..._durrant.shtml I keep a copy of her comments and have gone over it thoroughly and you cannot rebutt a single point she makes. She did her homework and produced a magnificent long term study of the issue legal banning of spanking. YOU have lied. I keep copies of Lazerlere's doc too, and know them well. Neausiating stuff and hardly what one could call anything more than a bundle misuse of academic social science jargon to sound authoritative....in somewhat the same way you pretend to understand research but can't even seperate out elements and their meaning from each other. You may read Lazerlere's rebuttal to Durrant's comments at the URL: http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/rdurrunl.75.pdf It's a monumental flop, a failure to address most of what she said that invalidated his nonsense. She was more than polite, but she tore him a new one. His bull did not walk. It's lot of wordy pap and more evasions. Is he your father? Are you sure? You should ask. Because his crap consists of little more than repeating the same things she showed were not true, were improper interpretations of data, dodging of real world information of the most obvious kind, and mostly a mountain of steaming subjective bias. He had the temerity to once again pretend there is an issue with the question of whether the child's bad behavior increased spankings, or spankings increased bad behavior. And has the gall to pretend he doesn't have a religious bias. That one alone shows it. No one NOT indoctrinated into "original sin" would EVER seriously propose even the question that the child has control over the parent and "FORCES" them to spank them more. What utter hogwash, just like YOU droan't. Is this another one of your baseless claims? First, you claimed that Dr. Baumrind "abandoned" Authoritative Parenting and now you claimed this! She did. She was an embarassment to the profession when she gave her unreviewed presentation at Berkeley, making professional research claims BUT where she had stripped away and severely diluted her sample for examining the outcomes of spanking, after removing a major proportion of the spankers. You, She, and I, and any other observer of "spanking" knows damn well that much more severe "spanking" has been LEGALLY SANCTIONED just as recently by that city councilman than she removed from her sample. Jordan Riak has addressed it for exactly what it is...and attempt to so dilute "spanking" that it presents as "harmless." BULL****, from a published reseacher. How sickening. YOu are lying, Doan. You know perfectly well that this issue has been addressed before. In this newsgroup. You cannot handle NEW presentations here so you are frantically jumping around trying to force the argument in any direction possible to avoid the inevitable....yet another proof of the bull**** you peddle being just that. Do you always have to lie to further your anti-spanking agenda? LIAR! YOU are the liar. NONE of us LIE about this issue but YOU. What worth is an agenda when it is bases on LIES? Zero...that why you are nothing and your agenda is nothing. You do not have the intelligence to debate, nor the honesty to, but you do have the sick little ****ant mindset to disrupt instead. You are lying to disrupt, because the entire string of people that have come here advocating spanking, AND the "experts" like Dobson and Lazerlere have been soundly refuted and have slunk away. We only see the sick dregs, like you and your Texas Twin. The argument was over YEARS ago here with you pretending it wasn't and staying ONLY to disrupt. You haven't debated ONCE. You've lied. You attacked when asked a simple question to clarify your weird claims and proclamations. You are a fraud. Doan Now give us a couple of LOL!, scream, "STUPID," and stop interupting our laughter at how transparent you are. It's takes NO special talent to disrupt your elders when they are trying to have a conversation among adults. You are a nasty spoiled little child. The product, obviously of bad parenting. And you are proud of it. -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
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