Wits end -- toddler/(no) sleep

(Marty Billingsley) wrote in
:

No suggestions about what to do when he wakes up in the
night -- sorry.

hmm. Emily, did your son have ear infections as a
baby/toddler? is he frequently stuffy or does he snore?
my kid is 6 & he wakes every 60-90 minutes all night. i'm
taking him to an ENT to see if there is something they can do
for apnea. you might want to check with his pediatrician to
see if there might be a physical cause for his waking.
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

wrote:
I feel bad 'taking away' things we've already
given him, like mama and daddy bedtime partying. :/

He might not enjoy it as much as you think he does. He must be tired,
and dreading the scene that he must know is to follow! You didn't
intend Micah's bedtime ritual to include screaming fits, but that is
part of the ritual.

Anyway, you don't have to do exactly what anyone else does. The trick
is to figure out what works for your family, meaning all of you. And
consider what happens when the baby arrives; would it still work to
have mommy and daddy holding a bedtime party with Micah? Every night?


Lots of riding on daddy's back, tackling daddy, etc. We should move
that to before dinner.

Yes. Or plan a cool-down interval between the gymnastics and sleepy
time.


I'd be happy in he stayed in bed playing for hours!! (as opposed to
screaming and trying to knock the door down...) :P

We had a period where screaming and bashing his head on things was a
daily event. It can be very difficult to walk the line between
discipline and support. I know if anyone locked me inside a room I
would go ballistic. I know you feel like it is your last resort, but I
hope you soon will find other tactics that work better. One reason we
go back in almost immediately is so that Monkey Boy does not have time
to get out of bed and/or get really worked up. And if we don't have to
listen to screaming we can more easily maintain the essential
matter-of-fact, unperturbed attitude needed to quench any nonsense. As
in, nothing you can do will get a rise out of me, so you might as well
go to sleep now.


I"m crossing my fingers that #2 is mellow.

I wouldn't say my #2 is mellow. But she does sleep far better than
Monkey Boy did, and I think her good sleep makes all the difference.
If I could go back and do it again, I would read Ferber's book much
sooner. There were several things going on with Monkey Boy that needed
adjustment. All relatively small things, but they added up to chronic
poor sleeping.

Ferber's book is not a quick fix recipe for success. To get much from
it you should expec to read it through while thinking at length about
your own situation. Then make a plan.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
the crib, so that was no longer an option.


My daughter wouldn't sleep with the door closed.

Warm baths before bed can help.
Chamomile tea, or warm milk can help.
No exercise or boisterous play at least an hour before bedtime.
Plenty of exercise through the day.
No TV
Quiet reading himself or someone reads to him
Soothing music
Night light or dim light


Just a few ideas that might help


Jen

Jen wrote:
My daughter wouldn't sleep with the door closed.

Warm baths before bed can help.
Chamomile tea, or warm milk can help.
No exercise or boisterous play at least an hour before bedtime.
Plenty of exercise through the day.
No TV
Quiet reading himself or someone reads to him
Soothing music
Night light or dim light

I might try leaving the door open. Tonight was another disaster. :P

I'll try the warm tea or milk. We really calmed down tonight in terms
of boisterous play, although he didn't get tons of excercise today --
I'll try to run him more ragged tomorrow (you'd think his knock-em-down
tantrums would do the trick... :P ). We don't have a TV, so that's not
an issue, and I read him books, sang him some songs, and he's got a
night light.

He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
put to bed, over and over and over.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

wrote:
-L. wrote:
IMO, you are making way too much fuss at bedtime.

I think you're right; part of the problem may be that this is the time
of the day that he consistently gets uninterrupted mama and daddy time,
and he wants to prolong it. I do feel badly about changing this
routine now, though -- esp. the singing/prayer in bed part, since we've
been doing this ever since he was born.

Then I would sing and pray in the living room before you go to the
bedroom. Make the bedroom only for preparing for bed and going to
sleep.


If he complains, I tell him, no, it's
ni-nite time and everybody is going to sleep - "Good nite baby, I love
you!" And the door gets shut. If he cries for more than 4 minutes or
so or gets up, I go in, put him back down and repeat the goodnights.
After two times, I merely go in without saying anything and put him
down again - and repeat until he stays in bed. If he wakes during the
night, it is a diaper change, a drink and then immediately back down in
his bed - no exceptions.

So keep on with the going in/putting him down overandoverandover, or
lock the door and let him cry?


I put him in bed and let him cry no more than 5-7 minutes or so. I
then go back in, tell him it's time for sleep, tuck him in and go back
out. I do this continually until he sleeps - the latter times without
saying a word. I never lock the door. If he gets out of bed, I put
him back in immediately.



The
key is consistency and being calm - don't get upset, don't make a fuss
- this is how it is and everyone is going to sleep in their own beds.

I know both DH and I are getting upset about it, which isn't helping.

And absolutely NO cosleeping - you give them an inch, they want a
mile!!

That's for sure... :/ Right now he's sleeping in the hallway
(naptime) -- I put him back in his room once, and the next time he
didn't come all the way out into the living room; he just parked
himself on the hall floor and fell asleep. Not sure if I should have
just kept on putting him back in his bed??

Yes - the bedis for sleeping - not the floor, not the couch, not your
bed - his bed and his bed only.

TBH, I don't care if he
sleeps on the floor in the hallway, even at night -- I just don't want
him to sleep in my bed! That sounds pretty bad, huh...

Not really. But you are confusing him by allowing him to get away with
sleeping elsewhere.

Just set the rules, be consistent and in a few days he will start to
sleep by himself in his bed. It works!

-L.

Pologirl wrote:
Yes. Or plan a cool-down interval between the gymnastics and sleepy
time.

Did that tonight...

We had a period where screaming and bashing his head on things was a
daily event. It can be very difficult to walk the line between
discipline and support. I know if anyone locked me inside a room I
would go ballistic. I know you feel like it is your last resort, but I
hope you soon will find other tactics that work better.

Yes, he ***hates*** this. He goes apoplectic. I think he could
actually hurt himself hurling himself against the door (did this
tonight), or at the very least, damage the door. :P


One reason we
go back in almost immediately is so that Monkey Boy does not have time
to get out of bed and/or get really worked up. And if we don't have to
listen to screaming we can more easily maintain the essential
matter-of-fact, unperturbed attitude needed to quench any nonsense. As
in, nothing you can do will get a rise out of me, so you might as well
go to sleep now.

I tried this tonight -- not locking the door, and every time he came
out, I walked him back into his room, put him in his bed, and said
"Ni-night, I love you." 4 seconds later, he'd be out again. This went
on for an hour, with a brief intermission of him lying quietly on the
hallway floor. Then we locked him in, then he had (another) screaming
tantrum, then DH did the whole "it's time for bed blah blah blah"
10-minute routine and he's asleep now, but I'm expecting him to wake up
screaming right when we head to bed. Argh. I know this is going to
take time, but I hate it. I feel like we're going through CIO all over
again.

Ferber's book is not a quick fix recipe for success. To get much from
it you should expec to read it through while thinking at length about
your own situation. Then make a plan.

I need to hear this. Thank you.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

enigma wrote:
hmm. Emily, did your son have ear infections as a
baby/toddler? is he frequently stuffy or does he snore?
my kid is 6 & he wakes every 60-90 minutes all night. i'm
taking him to an ENT to see if there is something they can do
for apnea. you might want to check with his pediatrician to
see if there might be a physical cause for his waking.
lee

You know, I hadn't thought of this, but DH did have really bad sleep
apnea when he was a kid, and my MIL told me that once they took out his
adenoids he was a different person (in a good way! haha). I might look
into this -- although I'm pretty convinced that at the moment, this is
more a tantrum/manipulative thing than a physical one. Not
manipulative with an evil connotation, but he's decided that he doesn't
like sleeping by himself, and he'll do whatever he can to make that not
happen. But in any case, that's a good idea to at least talk to
his ped.

Thanks,
Emily
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

Beth Kevles wrote:
Hi --

Our son had dreadful nights until we discovered his food allergies.
Once we eliminated them, his nights became calm, and his daytime
behavior was calmer.

Common allergens that elicit these symptoms include milk protein, egg,
and artificial colors, particularly fd&c red #40.

Or it could be completely unrelated, of course ...

I don't think it's food allergies since he doesn't have any other
symptoms -- but I *am* starting to think that he could be allergic to
his room -- the futon (which admittedly is a 3rd-hand grad school
relic) or the rug or the stuffed animals or something. Maybe he's
waking up because he gets stuffed up.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

wrote:

He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
put to bed, over and over and over.

I make it clear that the entire house is going to bed - even if we
aren't. I tell him Momma and Daddy are going ni-nite, Tessa (dog) is
going ni-nite, kittties are going ni-nite - we have an entire
discussion about it. I keep his room dark and just use the light from
the hallway for changing him. I talk in a low, soft voice. I hold him
gently and move him slowly. If he thinks you are up partying, he will
want to be up too! Also when I go back in to tell him to go back to
bed I tell him I'm tired and going back to bed.

Exercise during the day does help, as does a full belly - I use
slightly warm milk and a light snack such as a cracker or low-sugar
graham-cracker biscuit or cookie. No sugar after 6PM, including juice!
Absolutely no chocolate or caffeine at all, ever, either.

Good luck and be strong!
-L.

In article .com,
wrote:

Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
screaming starts.

I actually can deal with this. I don't mind returning him to his
bedroom over and over, and probably 90% of the time when we lock his
door, he cries for a few minutes and then goes down. BUT he also is
waking up *multiple* times in the middle of the night and coming into
our bedroom and wanting to sleep with us.

I don't know if you'd want to do this, but what we do is probably quieter than
your current methods :-) DS1 is 5 and DS2 is 18mo. I BF -- DS1 still has the
occasional evening BF. Obviously if you are not BFing you would omit that
part.

We had DS1 in our room, in his cot, until he was 4. This was longer than we
had planned, but the reasons were not connected to DS1s sleeping habits.

I always fed DS1 to sleep as an infant and put him in his cot. When he woke
up for a night feed, I would bring him in to our bed for the rest of the
night. We all got a reasonable amount of sleep that way. Gradually, the
night feeds decreased. Eventually, he was just waking up for a pre-breakfast
feed, and that just became breakfast, IIRC.

When we did transition DS1 to a bed, I was still BFing him to sleep. DH
handled the bedtime routine up to that point -- bath, pyjamas, story, Bible
story, prayer. I would come in, DH would kiss us goodnight and the light
would go off and the door close. I asked DS1 what the best thing that
happened today was, then BF him to sleep.

When DS2 arrived, I often contrived to be unavailable at bedtime. Instead, DH
would lie beside him until DS1 fell asleep. These days, I still BF DS1
several nights a week, but I leave him when he's drowsy, not out. Not sure if
DH does the same or waits till he's out. DH sings instead of BFing,
apparently :-) So now DS1 can be put to bed by either parent.

This probably sounds like a big time sink. I suppose it is, but it's pleasant
time with DS1, and it doesn't go on for hours. We've never had a problem with
night waking so I can't help you wiht that (were either you or his Dad a night
waker?). It can be a problem too, when your child can't wake up and get to
the toilet in time (I am washing widdly sheets today)...

The other thing that occurs to me is that Micah is only just two, and you get
separation anxiety at that age. The fact that he keeps wanting to find you at
night makes me wonder if that is the problem, or could he be cutting his
two-year-old molars? You could also have a look at whether he is still very
alert at bedtime. If he gets a daytime sleep, it might be running too late in
the day, so that he doesn't sleep at night. We had this problem when DS1 was
about 3. And a horrible thought has just occurred to me: What about sleep
associations? Perhaps his idea of going to sleep IS screaming until he
becomes exhausted?! Eeep!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue