Taser, anyone?

Taser on children OK, police say

Daytona Beach News Journal | November 27 2004

Officials from a majority of law enforcement agencies in Volusia and
Flagler counties say they would not hesitate to shoot a child with a
Taser stun gun to keep the youngster from harming himself or someone
else.

The Taser policies of law enforcement agencies in both counties require
police to consider everything from a suspect's age to physical and
mental condition, but no local agency specifically prohibits using the
weapon on a child.

"There are those youths out there that are just as capable of hurting
someone as any 18-year-old," said Sgt. Pete Moon of the DeLand Police
Department. "Each scenario is different."

Debra Johnson, a spokeswoman with the Flagler County Sheriff's Office,
agreed that age wasn't the only deciding factor. "There are some 12
year-olds out there that are bigger than some adults," she said.

The weapons are equipped with electric barbs that penetrate the skin
and transmit an electric shock of up to 50,000 volts from the Taser.
Tasers also may be used as a stun gun by pressing the weapon against
the skin.

Law enforcement agencies in the area discussed their policies with The
News-Journal after two separate incidents in Miami in which police were
accused of using their Taser guns on children -- a 12-year-old girl and
a 6-year-old boy -- who officers claimed were endangering themselves.

The incidents prompted a review of the Miami-Dade Police Department's
Taser policy, said Miami-Dade Detective Nelda Fonticella , because that
policy does not specifically address the issue of Tasers and children.

Local police said officers are expected to use discretion and consider
whether the suspect poses a threat to himself or another person.

Of the local police agencies surveyed, only the Daytona Beach police
reported using a Taser on a child under 17.

Volusia County Sheriff's Office spokesman Brandon Haught said Sheriff
Ben Johnson is "fully against" using Tasers on children.

"He feels it should be used only as a last resort," Haught said.

Spokesman Gary Davidson described the department's Taser use as "very
conservative." Deputies have deployed the weapons 175 times in the last
three years.

Resource officers who patrol Volusia or Flagler schools do not carry
Tasers, officials said, but do carry service weapons and can call on
sheriff's deputies with Tasers for backup.

Daytona Beach Shores police -- who have deployed Tasers more often this
year than any other law enforcement agency in the county, according to
police reports -- declined comment on the issue.

Police agencies in Central Florida have had to decide whether to allow
officers to use Tasers only in cases of active physical resistance, or
in any case of resistance, including verbal refusals to cooperate.

In the Daytona Beach police incidents earlier this year where Tasers
were deployed against two 16-year-old boys in two separate incidents,
the suspects were running away from police, said Lt. Jesse Godfrey, a
spokesman for the department.

An officer may fire his or her Taser at a running suspect if the
officer believes the person has committed a crime, Godfrey said. The
officer must shout verbal commands at the suspect and warn that the
Taser will be used.

"In a foot pursuit, either the officer or the person can hurt their leg
or ankle, they can get hit by a car or they can fall," Godfrey said.
"By using the Taser, we reduce the danger to both."

Yvonne Herrera, R.N., an pediatric intensive care nurse in charge of
Night Lite Pediatrics in Orlando, said little information is available
about the medical effects of a Taser on a child and the pediatricians
there had never heard of a Taser being used on a local child.

"I don't think that was the intended use," she said.

As an emergency room nurse, though, Herrera said she has seen adults
brought in after being hit with Tasers. She said the Taser's current
doesn't knock suspects from their feet, but causes their knees to
buckle, so they crumple to the ground. Patients who have received a
Taser blast usually have no serious injuries, she said, and are treated
for pain and small lacerations at the site of the stun.

Many officers said that as much as they would dislike having to shoot a
child with a Taser, they recognize the time might come when it would be
necessary.

"The child would have to reach the same level (of behavior) as an
adult," said Ormond Beach training division Officer Vince Champion.
.....................................

LOL! No wonder Chris Dunga called you STUPID!

Doan

On 19 Mar 2005 wrote:

Taser on children OK, police say

Daytona Beach News Journal | November 27 2004

Officials from a majority of law enforcement agencies in Volusia and
Flagler counties say they would not hesitate to shoot a child with a
Taser stun gun to keep the youngster from harming himself or someone
else.

The Taser policies of law enforcement agencies in both counties require
police to consider everything from a suspect's age to physical and
mental condition, but no local agency specifically prohibits using the
weapon on a child.

"There are those youths out there that are just as capable of hurting
someone as any 18-year-old," said Sgt. Pete Moon of the DeLand Police
Department. "Each scenario is different."

Debra Johnson, a spokeswoman with the Flagler County Sheriff's Office,
agreed that age wasn't the only deciding factor. "There are some 12
year-olds out there that are bigger than some adults," she said.

The weapons are equipped with electric barbs that penetrate the skin
and transmit an electric shock of up to 50,000 volts from the Taser.
Tasers also may be used as a stun gun by pressing the weapon against
the skin.

Law enforcement agencies in the area discussed their policies with The
News-Journal after two separate incidents in Miami in which police were
accused of using their Taser guns on children -- a 12-year-old girl and
a 6-year-old boy -- who officers claimed were endangering themselves.

The incidents prompted a review of the Miami-Dade Police Department's
Taser policy, said Miami-Dade Detective Nelda Fonticella , because that
policy does not specifically address the issue of Tasers and children.

Local police said officers are expected to use discretion and consider
whether the suspect poses a threat to himself or another person.

Of the local police agencies surveyed, only the Daytona Beach police
reported using a Taser on a child under 17.

Volusia County Sheriff's Office spokesman Brandon Haught said Sheriff
Ben Johnson is "fully against" using Tasers on children.

"He feels it should be used only as a last resort," Haught said.

Spokesman Gary Davidson described the department's Taser use as "very
conservative." Deputies have deployed the weapons 175 times in the last
three years.

Resource officers who patrol Volusia or Flagler schools do not carry
Tasers, officials said, but do carry service weapons and can call on
sheriff's deputies with Tasers for backup.

Daytona Beach Shores police -- who have deployed Tasers more often this
year than any other law enforcement agency in the county, according to
police reports -- declined comment on the issue.

Police agencies in Central Florida have had to decide whether to allow
officers to use Tasers only in cases of active physical resistance, or
in any case of resistance, including verbal refusals to cooperate.

In the Daytona Beach police incidents earlier this year where Tasers
were deployed against two 16-year-old boys in two separate incidents,
the suspects were running away from police, said Lt. Jesse Godfrey, a
spokesman for the department.

An officer may fire his or her Taser at a running suspect if the
officer believes the person has committed a crime, Godfrey said. The
officer must shout verbal commands at the suspect and warn that the
Taser will be used.

"In a foot pursuit, either the officer or the person can hurt their leg
or ankle, they can get hit by a car or they can fall," Godfrey said.
"By using the Taser, we reduce the danger to both."

Yvonne Herrera, R.N., an pediatric intensive care nurse in charge of
Night Lite Pediatrics in Orlando, said little information is available
about the medical effects of a Taser on a child and the pediatricians
there had never heard of a Taser being used on a local child.

"I don't think that was the intended use," she said.

As an emergency room nurse, though, Herrera said she has seen adults
brought in after being hit with Tasers. She said the Taser's current
doesn't knock suspects from their feet, but causes their knees to
buckle, so they crumple to the ground. Patients who have received a
Taser blast usually have no serious injuries, she said, and are treated
for pain and small lacerations at the site of the stun.

Many officers said that as much as they would dislike having to shoot a
child with a Taser, they recognize the time might come when it would be
necessary.

"The child would have to reach the same level (of behavior) as an
adult," said Ormond Beach training division Officer Vince Champion.
....................................

How is Kane invested in the TASER industry?

Greegor wrote:
How is Kane invested in the TASER industry?

Okay. I'll bite.

How?

Kane

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

..........full story at the link above..........

wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam.. or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

bobb

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've argued
since the begining.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

bobb

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have, and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I might get
into. Did he die?

And we know that tasers are safe on SIX-YEAR OLDS right, Kane?

Doan


On 10 Apr 2005 wrote:


bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have, and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I might get
into. Did he die?