The Deadly Taser.... Taser, anyone?

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

..........full story at the link above..........

wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam.. or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

bobb

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've argued
since the begining.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

bobb

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have, and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I might get
into. Did he die?

And we know that tasers are safe on SIX-YEAR OLDS right, Kane?

Doan


On 10 Apr 2005 wrote:


bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have, and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I might get
into. Did he die?

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

For someone that wasn't arguing about the taser itself you certainly
seem to argue about the taser itself.

As for poor helpless little old ladies....0:-

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/flash_6.html


bobb

Well, Kane. You make the argument easy for me. With thoughts your mind
generates.... and I'm sure there are others like you... then tasers need to
be out-lawed because they are prone to fall into the hands of people who
think as you do.
You, obviously, are the ones we need to guard against.

bobb

"Doan" wrote in message
...

And we know that tasers are safe on SIX-YEAR OLDS right, Kane?

By is own admission, Kane, is a danger to six year olds... and should be on
some kinda watch list.

bobb


Doan


On 10 Apr 2005 wrote:


bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons... even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head... anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have, and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I might get
into. Did he die?

bobb wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...

And we know that tasers are safe on SIX-YEAR OLDS right, Kane?

By is own admission, Kane, is a danger to six year olds... and should
be on
some kinda watch list.

How would I be a danger to six year olds, bobber the swift?

Rather than you?

Here is the original story, and a followup story. You tell us how you
would have handled this with less danger to the child.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2896941

Nov. 11, 2004, 8:29PM

MIAMI -- Police used a stun gun on a 6-year-old boy in his principal's
office because he was wielding a piece of glass and threatening to
hurt himself, officials said today.

The boy, who was not identified, was shocked with 50,000 volts on Oct.
20 at Kelsey Pharr Elementary School.

Principal Maria Mason called 911 after the child broke a picture frame
in her office and waved a piece of glass, holding a security guard
back.

When two Miami-Dade County police officers and a school officer
arrived, the boy had already cut himself under his eye and on his
hand.

The officers talked to the boy without success. When the boy cut his
own leg, one officer shocked him with a Taser and another grabbed him
to prevent him from falling, police said.

He was treated and taken to a hospital, where he was committed for
psychiatric evaluation.

"By using the Taser, we were able to stop the situation, stop him from
hurting himself," police spokesman Juan DelCastillo told The Miami
Herald.

The case was under review.
"
And this was your follow up, bobber:

bobb Nov 12 2004, 9:21 pm

What a cowardly cop. Cannot even disarm a six year old.. I bet he's
secretly the laughing stock of the department.. hahaha. Don't care
the the
six year old had a six in knife or even a box cutter... the big cop
(unless
it was a woman) should been able to out manuver and over-power a sex
year
old. I just can't keep from laughing. I've disarmed grown men and
women
with knives, boiling water, baseball bats.. and yeh... guns. Worse I
ever
got was a broken thumb.

I'm still upset that the cops didn't enter columbine as well. A pansey
crew
without their ticket books that's sure.
...................

So your way of protecting and not being a menace to this six year old
is to out maneuver and over-power him, right?

Here's the part you want no one to see, or to remember yourself...hell,
you even got him mixed up with a female 12 year old that was outside
running into traffic. That higher proof stuffs gonna getcha one day,
bobber:


Jason Stanley Nov 17 2004, 8:36 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,
alt.support.child-protective-services, alt.support.foster-parents,
misc.kids
From: Jason Stanley - Find messages by this
author
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:36:01 -0600
Local: Wed,Nov 17 2004 8:36 am
Subject: FL police taser 6yo principal's office in Miami
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original
| Report Abuse

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
bobb wrote:
"Joe Jones" wrote in message
news:1100628942.Nbnb/2zD6873371XJWnskA@teranews...

"Jason Stanley" wrote in message
...

bobb wrote:

Oh, c'mon, Kane. Look at the severe injuries we see coming back
from
the battlefield everyday. They live with injuries far worse than
those
that can be inflicted by a six year old child. Just because you
beleive
it 'could' happen... and the possibility is so very remote it
shouldn't
even be discussed. You're as bad as others... you worry about what
'might' happen... 'could' happen... under very extreme
circumstance.

If that woman cop couldn't control a six year old without using a
violent weapon what in the world would she use on a ten year
old.... a
45. cal? Let's try a .357 on teenagers. See, I can get as
out-rageous
as you.

bobb

No Bobb, pay attention. A police officers job is to use the force
necessary to restrain the combatant. If he could get stabbed or shot
he
is justified in shooting the person. Luckily they have tasers and
don't
have to resort to it if they have time to taser. Kids are lucky
police
have tasers. If they didn't have the policeman "could be" killed by
the
kid then his life is in danger and he is justified. Do you play
golf?
You know if you play in a thunderstorm, you "could be" struck by
lightening? The fact that it could happen is enough that most sane
people
wouldn't do it. Sane people being the key words there.

Welcome aboard Jason. Just what we need. Another sock with a head of
rock.

Well, said Joe.... :-)

bobb

Here is what a Florida newspaper says about it.

Support Officer, Review Policy

South Florida Sun-Sentinel Editorial Board
Posted November 17 2004

A police officer's job is never easy. And it's never harder than when
an
officer must make life-or-death decisions in the blink of an eye.

It's easy to criticize such decisions after the fact. But who among the
critics would like to trade places with the officers who have to make
them?

On Oct. 20 at Kelsey L. Pharr Elementary School, a Miami-Dade County
police officer used a Taser stun gun to subdue a 6-year-old boy who was
cutting himself with a shard of glass and threatening others with it.
The officer's action brought the dangerous incident to a safe
conclusion.

That hasn't stopped the chorus of critics. They express outrage over
the
use of the weapon and bafflement over why it was necessary in order to
subdue a small child. They obviously have never given much thought to
the kinds of split-second decisions police officers have to make.

There are several reasons why using the Taser may have been necessary,
or at least appeared necessary at the moment it was used, which is all
that really matters in determining whether the officer exercised good
judgment.

The child had a history of behavioral problems. When police arrived at
the scene, he had already cut himself under his right eye and on his
left hand, and was bleeding copiously. As officers tried to calm him
down, he began cutting his leg. That's when officer Maria Abbott fired
the stun gun -- after another officer had called a sergeant to make
sure
it didn't violate departmental policy.

That policy prohibits the use of Tasers only against pregnant women.
It's now under review, and that's a good thing. The fact that no one
was
seriously hurt by the use of the stun gun in the October incident is
significant. Still, the police department must do all it can to
determine just how safe such weapons are for use against children.
Other
South Florida police agencies that allow Tasers against kids should
conduct similar reviews.

The Miami-Dade County School District also is reviewing the incident to
see what policy changes it might need to make. The Broward and Palm
Beach County districts should do likewise before a similar incident
occurs in one of their schools.

It's significant that the boy's family has not filed a complaint
against
the police. Perhaps they know the boy well enough to understand what
Abbott was up against that day. Perhaps they're relieved that their
troubled child was prevented from further harming himself, or someone
else.

All agencies involved should of course investigate the incident and
review their procedures. But nothing that is currently known suggests
that Abbott was anything but a hero.
..............end.........

Bobber this is one of the messages shared in the thread. Do you dispute
what it says? How out of control and badly bleeding and intent on leg
sawing he was.

A split second and femoral could have been cut. Few live with a severed
femoral, and the boy obviously was not bothered by the pain. He'd cut
himself twice already. How big do you think a shard of glass can be
before it's no longer considered a shard? It could be a foot or more
and still be referred to accurate as a shard. Our ancestors used broken
glass (flint is a form) to gut and butcher out animals up to the size
of mammoths and mastadons. And with an edge poorer than we can get with
manufactured glass.

You don't feel the least guilty in this do you? Not knowing the size of
the shard, the size and energy the boy was using, the amount of damage
he'd already done, but you are passing judgement....and, bobber, no one
was cut, not even boy, any further than he'd done. And he sustained no
injury.

This was, apparently from what was said at the time, a child with a
psychiatric history. Unless you have worked with them, don't be second
guessing the cops or someone else on scene.

0:-



Doan


On 10 Apr 2005 wrote:


bobb wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Oh, those deadly Tasers.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/08/bea....ap/index.html

Man dies after police shoot him with bean bags

Friday, April 8, 2005 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Georgia (AP) -- A man who telephoned a hot line
to say
he
had
a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after
police
shot
him
with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials
said.

Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after
he
was
shot
at his home with two bean bag bullets.

Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet
hitting
his
spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said
Thursday.

A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal
alternative
to
shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.

.........full story at the link above..........
'

The same for rubber bullets, but they too, have killed or
cause
serious
injury. The problem is the choice of defensive weapons...
even
the
baton or
gun butt.. rather such tactics are employed needlessly and
without
merit.
If the situation warrants a shotgun blast to the head...
anything
less
lethal would be fine in my book... but not on an 85 year old
womam..
or a
six year old child... as reported in the news. The deaths
that
have
followed the use of tasers were of circumstance that seem
very
quesionable
when other options were available... as reported in the news
as
well.

Would it be safe (be still my heart) for me to assume you
might
possibly be entertaining the slight chance that the weapon
isn't
the
question, but the application?

bobb

0:-

Kane, that would be a safe and reliable assumtion... the point
I've
argued
since the begining.

No, bobber, you argued at times against the tool itself if I
recall.
But then I could so easily confuse you with the other doofi that
ask
such questions as these below.

Would it be safe to assume you will agree tasers have been
wrongfully used
on six years olds and 85 year old women?

On of the best teachers I ever had in the hard form of Tai Chi
Chuan,
Chen style was in her early 80's. I would not want to be on the
wrong
side of here in any kind of physical confrontation.

Blubbering over someone who is 85 years old does not speak to what
she
was up to and the risk she posed to herself and others. Did she
die?

We don't know if the taser was wrongfully used. We were not on
scene.
The officers were. LEOs have to make decisions of life and death
in a
split second. They are trained to. Do they make mistakes? Does a
bear
**** in the woods?

Then there's the six year old. Cops somewhere some time may have,
and
if you can find an instance that clearly shows malicious intent or
malfeasance let me know. But when you have a six year old that has
cut
himself twice, and is sawing his leg with broken glass, has
managed to
drive off other adults, I'd say a taser is likely a lifesaver. Did
the
boy die?

bobb

I try to project in my mind, as an exercise, both myself, and the
folks
such as you into the event. I see you chasing a 12 year old girl
who is
drunk (one of the actual cases in the media under discussion in
our
taser thread).

I doubt either you or I could catch her, but there she goes
running
right it to traffic. I can, using myself as the actor, imagine
what the
officer thought...."oh **** running into traffic drunk..well, It's
my
job or her life. I think I'll let my job go down the
****ter...someone's life is worth more."

And then there's you, bobb. "Well, I'm not going to make the
stupid
error of possibly being wrong like Kane is willing to risk, so
I'll
save my job and my ego, and let her go...who knows she might
survive a
45 mph hit."

Same thinking would go with the boy. He'd already waved people off
with
the glass. Broken glass is as sharp, actually sharper than a
surgeon's
scalple.

YOU go ahead and let the saw on himself, or leap in like superman
(without the powers) an not only get cut yourself but raise the
risk of
the boy's wide swings connecting with himself. Me, I'll deploy the
taser. And know that asshole second guessers such as you will be
judging me. I care more for the boy's life than the trouble I
might get
into. Did he die?