Toddler Harness - I think we need it - DH against it - HELP!

wrote in message
I've explained to him so many times about holding my hand and about
dangerous cars - so much so - that he talks about it to his
stuffed-animals. He KNOWS what he's SUPPOSED to do. He just doesn't
always implement it - regardless of the situation.

I would put the child in the stroller with the baby if he can't listen to
you and stay with you. I also taught the girls to hang on the handle of
carts and strollers when we were walking in parking lots and such.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

In article .com,
says...



You have to do what you have to do to keep them safe. By the by, I
don't think 3 year olds really get "embarrassment". They might get
ticked because they are thwarted, but doubt they care too much about
what anyone thinks when they are out with mum.


Right - three year olds don't get embarassed.

So I think He Who *Does* Get Embarrassed should be in charge of the baby whilst
Mom is in charge of the toddler when He and Mom are together (I'd not let He
take the toddler lest He just want to Prove Something), and whilst Mom is alone,
she uses a harness - who's to be embarrassed then?

Problem fixed.

Banty (who is sometimes glad she's a 'singlmom')


--

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Nan wrote:

In that case, I'd just get the harness and start using it. Your
husband has the right not to use one, but he doesn't have the right to
insist that you not use one, and there's always the chance he may see
it's a Good Thing instead of the Bad Thing he's pre-judged it to be,
and will start using it.

I dunno. I'd *really* resist using this option.
What leg do you have to stand on later when husband wants
to, say, use some form of discipline that *you* feel is
inappropriate/humiliating/whatever? He can come right
back at you and say, "Hey, you can do what you want when
you have the kids, but I think this is essential to their
wellbeing, and you've got no right to insist I don't do
it!" When one parent feels that some part of parenting
is harmful to the child, I think you're far, far ahead
to find a way to negotiate your way through the interaction
successfully, rather than declaring an ultimatum like
this.

And if hubby thought wearing seat belts and car seats is too much a bother, or
'constraining' or 'insulting to his excellent driving skills' (hey I've known
people like that!)?

This is a safety issue.

It's also a matter of the parent who (probably) is seldom in that spot, telling
the other how do deal with that situation. If there were another sitaution like
that, like whether or not Mom puts toddler in high chair while she cooks dinner,
that Dad thought was a shortfall in parenting, would you call it a parenting
issue that has to have consistent consensus, and advise Mom to only fix
sandwiches or something to get around it?

Some folks get hung up on little principles as long as they don't need to test
those principles. I think this decision goes to the parent who needs to be
practical.

Banty


--

In article . com,
wrote:

My son turns 3 in a few months. He's generally good about holding our
hand when we are crossing the street or walking on the sidewalk beside
a road or in a parking lot (because he knows cars are dangerous), but
lately he's developed a bad habit of taking off and running away. I
think he thinks it's a game.

I have an 8 month old daughter, so I can't just abandon her in her
stroller to chase after him (although, I end up doing that most times
when the stroller can make it where he ran - like stairs and
tight/bumpy places). Just last week, when I picked him up from
pre-school, he ran onto the street and it took me a good 10 seconds to
secure my daughter's stroller (the school is on a very steep hill), so
I could chase after him.

I've explained to him so many times about holding my hand and about
dangerous cars - so much so - that he talks about it to his
stuffed-animals. He KNOWS what he's SUPPOSED to do. He just doesn't
always implement it - regardless of the situation.

So....the solution is easy for me - I am going to buy a harness and use
that. There is only ONE PROBLEM with this.....

My husband thinks 'leashes' are cruel and embarrassing. He doesn't
think I should use one and refuses to use one - regardless of the
situation. He also thinks it's used as a replacement for 'teaching',
whereas I consider it a 'tool' for teaching, as well as an added safety
measure.

How am I supposed to enforce consistency in my son's life if my husband
won't agree on this? What should I do?

Thanks,


Would your husband react as strongly to a "hand holder" instead of a
harness? Those go around the child's wrist instead of around the body.

That's what I used with my kids when they did this -- the one I had when
my oldest was three and I had infant twins wrapped around each of our
wrists with velcro. The one I had when the twins started that behavior
(and I think it must be pretty common!) was designed for twins, and had
a loop that closed with D-rings for each wrist.

For me, there were two advantages over the harness: one, I had less of
an emotional reaction -- it felt more like remote hand-holding, less
like putting a child on a leash. Two, it was easier to take on and off,
so I could use it only when I felt I had to.

I wouldn't worry about whether your husband uses one -- kids manage to
learn that different adults have different approaches/rules all the time.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"shinypenny" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
How am I supposed to enforce consistency in my son's life if my husband
won't agree on this? What should I do?

I tried a harness once, and only once. It didn't work like I imagined
it would. I found that when DD bolted, I had to YANK her back. I got
worried I'd injure her. YMMV.

#2 thought they were great things to swing from. Wasn't worried she would
hurt herself. Did get uncomfortable for me for any length of time.
In the end, I got a double stroller and insisted that she ride in it -
strapped in - whenever we were out and about in areas that I did not
want her running off. She quickly learned that walking was a privilege.
That would be my choice, but I recognise that sometimes a double buggy is
more of a hassle. A buggy board can work well because they're between your
arms and so you have more control over them moving away.
The situation I have with #2 is that she can walk if she's good. But if she
runs off then the next time she goes in the buggy-or if we're close enough I
go back for it. But she's wanted to walk since she was 18 months and even at
that age she could understand the consequences. It obviously wouldn't work
if you've a 3 yo who really wants to go in the buggy that younger sibling is
in.
Debbie

wrote in message
oups.com...

But in your case, since your son is already (IME anyway) nearly old
enough not to need reins, you can use your husband's attitude to your
advantage. You can make it quite clear to your son that if he *doesn't*
always hold your hand or the stroller when crossing the road, then he
has to wear the reins. Treating reins as a "natural consequence" of
misbehaviour might be enough to get him to behave! And if your son
doesn't, your husband might be more willing to accept it that way!

This worked for our runaway bunny. I bought a leash, but only had to use it
once. After that she stayed at our sides in crowded or dangerous places.
Some almost three year olds do get embarrassed. (The leash would embarrass
her, yet going to the mall in sparkley fairy wings, not at all...) One
suggestion I have in crowded, but not dangerous places, tie a helium balloon
to them. Then you can track them easier, and it seems to go with the wings.
Also works as a wind break, so they can't run as fast.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I haven't gone through the replies of everyone else, so I don't know what's
already been said or not said, but I'm going to add my opinion before I have
the chance to kind of alter my own opinion and suggestions

My son turns 3 in a few months. He's generally good about holding our
hand when we are crossing the street or walking on the sidewalk beside
a road or in a parking lot (because he knows cars are dangerous), but
lately he's developed a bad habit of taking off and running away. I
think he thinks it's a game.

It's a game.

I have an 8 month old daughter, so I can't just abandon her in her
stroller to chase after him (although, I end up doing that most times
when the stroller can make it where he ran - like stairs and
tight/bumpy places). Just last week, when I picked him up from
pre-school, he ran onto the street and it took me a good 10 seconds to
secure my daughter's stroller (the school is on a very steep hill), so
I could chase after him.

Well, it's a start that you do see his game. He's 3. Pushing buttons is
very typical at this age, and, really, at any age it seems! You shouldn't
have to run after him, and yes, I know what you mean about having to ditch a
stroller to go off after him when he takes off to a stroller-unfriendly
area.

I've explained to him so many times about holding my hand and about
dangerous cars - so much so - that he talks about it to his
stuffed-animals. He KNOWS what he's SUPPOSED to do. He just doesn't
always implement it - regardless of the situation.

Well, he's 3, and far from stupid. He definitely knows the basics, and it
seems that at this age, they're a lot smarter than we often give them credit
for. Again, it's the game of his, and pretty much every other 3 year old.

So....the solution is easy for me - I am going to buy a harness and use
that. There is only ONE PROBLEM with this.....

I, personally, hate those harnesses. I walk my dog on a leash, not my
child.

My husband thinks 'leashes' are cruel and embarrassing. He doesn't
think I should use one and refuses to use one - regardless of the
situation. He also thinks it's used as a replacement for 'teaching',
whereas I consider it a 'tool' for teaching, as well as an added safety
measure.

I am on your husband's side. I would have nothing to do with those child
harness and lead things. I too had problems with my boys, they went through
the same stage of taking off during walks, at the mall, whatever. Now,
though, at 5 and 6, they both walk just fine. They *know* how dangerous
cars are, and I think DS2 knows even moreso after we were in a major car
accident back at the beginning of February. I never really had the problem
of a 3 year old walking and a baby in a stroller, though... DSs are a year
apart in age, and DD is 4 and a half years younger than DS2. To this day,
though, there's the odd, odd time where DS will take off when he should be
walking nice. We actually found a system that kind of seems to work...

How am I supposed to enforce consistency in my son's life if my husband
won't agree on this? What should I do?

Well, if you like the idea of the harness, then I see nothing wrong with
explaining to DH that you're going to get one and you are going to use it
when he is not there. He doesn't even need to know when and where, but I,
personally, would just fill him in as to not have him end up being angry if
he ends up finding it on his own. Now, on to what seems to be working for
us... DD is in a stroller. She's 9 months old. We have 2 toys attached to
the stroller. One is for one boy, the other for the other one. They
picked out a toy each and we attached them to the stroller right beside
where my hands go on the handle. It's simply you hold on to the toy when
required or we don't go. Make that clear and as a reminder each and every
time we step out of the house. You hold your toy when told. Now, there's
times when you don't *have* to have your hand around that toy and can walk
on your own if you'd like, but when walking near roads, especially busy
ones, crossing any street, busy or not, traffic lights or crossing lights or
not, we do not even consider stepping on the road until ALL cars have
stopped and both hands are on the toys (one hand of each, I mean) Also,
having this toy right beside my hands helps for me to be able to put my own
hands on their hands, still enforcing they must hold the toy. I am still
able to control and steer a stroller. Then there's very little chance of
something happening - like bolting unexpectedly and leaving no reaction time
for me - and no excuse of, "Oh, my hand slipped!"

There's always a chance for something bad to happen even when you take every
possibly precaution - my brothers played football when they were younger,
and a family friend from the team was walking across a fairly dead road at a
marked crosswalk with crossing lights flashing, and I believe it was the mom
with her 4 children walking - they ranged in age from a baby in a stroller
to about 12 at the time (if I recall correct, they were around 1, 3, 9 and
12) A car whipped around from behind one car stopped for them to cross -
with the crossing lights flashing - and ran them all down. I believe 2 of
the children died, and the mom and other 2 were seriously hurt. They were
all walking together, no one was running across the street, no one was ahead
or straggling behind. I guess it's safe to say that THEY pretty much did
everything 'right' and still something went wrong. Not trying to say this
will happen to you, or really anyone, but obviously you want to do all you
can to prevent something pointless and stupid on anyone's part.

A harness MIGHT be a good idea for you, though. If you don't mind them and
believe one would benefit, then I would say go for it. I would bring it up
with DH, just say you are getting one for use when you are with the children
alone, and when he is there, it won't even cross your mind to use it, as he
can hold DS's hand? I wouldn't go against his wishes outwardly when he is
around, but I see nothing wrong with getting one, using it for YOU and
putting it up and out of sight when you go for a walk or go somewhere as a
family.
The toy system seems to work great for us. I just couldn't ever see putting
a harness on my children, but that is definitely a personal preference. I
know they also have those wrist bands that you attach to your wrist, or
stroller, and also velcro around the child's arm. Either way, harness or
those straps are basically the same idea. Both prevent total loss of
control for the moment by allowing only a certain distance for a child to
take off before they are stopped, and both will allow for you to gain
control back ASAP.

Thanks,

Just my 2¢

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:

So....the solution is easy for me - I am going to buy a harness and use
that. There is only ONE PROBLEM with this.....

My husband thinks 'leashes' are cruel and embarrassing. He doesn't
think I should use one and refuses to use one - regardless of the
situation. He also thinks it's used as a replacement for 'teaching',
whereas I consider it a 'tool' for teaching, as well as an added safety
measure.

How am I supposed to enforce consistency in my son's life if my husband
won't agree on this? What should I do?

I'm not going to take a stand either way on the
appropriateness of harnesses, but it is certainly possible
to deal with this situation without one if you choose.
It's not necessarily fun or easy, but you can do it. You
could put the baby in a sling instead of a stroller, leaving
you more mobile. You can push a stroller and hold a hand
at the same time, especially if you have the 2yo put his
hand on the stroller to "help" steer and you put your hand
over his. You could insist he hold on to the stroller
(grab him the instant his hand leaves the stroller--don't
wait for him to get some distance). You can set up
opportunities to practice staying close. Go for a walk
or other fun activity outside, and the instant he darts
away, pick him up and bring him back home.

I totally agree with Ericka. When/if you decide to set up some practice
situations go to fairly safe places where you don't have to chase after him.
That is a whole lot of fun for them.

With these strategies under your belt, and if you dh has any ideas, then you
can work with him on a compromise. Perhaps you can agree to not use a leash
if he is willing to help you get control of this behavior by going along on
trips for a few weeks. If he doesn't want to do that then a compromise
might be that you use the leash when alone but not when he is along and he
doesn't have to. I personally don't see any problem with you using one and
him not.


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Nan wrote:

In that case, I'd just get the harness and start using it. Your
husband has the right not to use one, but he doesn't have the right to
insist that you not use one, and there's always the chance he may see
it's a Good Thing instead of the Bad Thing he's pre-judged it to be,
and will start using it.

I dunno. I'd *really* resist using this option.
What leg do you have to stand on later when husband wants
to, say, use some form of discipline that *you* feel is
inappropriate/humiliating/whatever? He can come right
back at you and say, "Hey, you can do what you want when
you have the kids, but I think this is essential to their
wellbeing, and you've got no right to insist I don't do
it!"

In that case, you are in trouble and you have bigger problems than we
can deal with on the internet. It's not an issue of 'rights'. It is
a safety issue.

I found that in some cases, my dh and I were really in agreement after
he really UNDERSTOOD why I was taking the stand that I did. And v.v.
of course. In some cases it was necessary to really push hard (in one
case I had to get extremely upset and start crying which I NEVER do,
and another time, he had to get so exasperated at my refusal to do
something that he finally admitted what his deep down fear was - which
he hadn't wanted to admit to me) before we could come to consensus.
Because once we really understood why it was important to the SO, then
we could agree because we loved them to do (or not do) something that
we disagreed about.

Possibly the person who says that a leash is humiliating is projecting
some kind of S&M scenario onto the child - because I would be
EXTREMELY surprised if any 2 or 3 yo thought twice about it let alone
found it humiliating. They might find it frustrating to be
restrained, but that's quite different and totally justified. It
would be different if they were school age.

When one parent feels that some part of parenting
is harmful to the child, I think you're far, far ahead
to find a way to negotiate your way through the interaction
successfully, rather than declaring an ultimatum like
this.
Again, I'm not taking a stand for or against
harness use. I think the appropriateness of that action
is very situation dependent. I'm just suggesting that
a) it's worth negotiating through this and b) there are
other options that can go on the table, such that threats
of doing it anyway or not using a harness will inevitably
lead to inconsistency or injury are idle threats that
will just get DH to dig in his heels further. Hey, if
all else fails, find a way to put *him* on duty for a
few days taking several trips out alone with the two
kids. Either he has some close calls and comes around,
or maybe he figures out a way to deal with it successfully
without a harness. Either way, you win.


I wouldn't threaten. That's just as bad as threatening a child with
punishment - doesn't work and just weakens your position.

If my dh was to dig his heels in on this issue (and he did not - I had
a harness, and my mom used a harness on me), then I would just refuse
to be put into a situation where it was a problem. I would not take
the baby and the 3 yo out at the same time. So the 3 yo could not go
to preschool unless I could get a sitter for the baby or unless dh
could pick him up, or some other compromise could be made. Just as
there might be behavioral options such as Erika outlined for making
sure that the older child never got a chance to run off, there are
also options (however little we may like them) for never taking the
two children out together.

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Nan wrote:

In that case, I'd just get the harness and start using it. Your
husband has the right not to use one, but he doesn't have the right to
insist that you not use one, and there's always the chance he may see
it's a Good Thing instead of the Bad Thing he's pre-judged it to be,
and will start using it.
I dunno. I'd *really* resist using this option.
What leg do you have to stand on later when husband wants
to, say, use some form of discipline that *you* feel is
inappropriate/humiliating/whatever? He can come right
back at you and say, "Hey, you can do what you want when
you have the kids, but I think this is essential to their
wellbeing, and you've got no right to insist I don't do
it!" When one parent feels that some part of parenting
is harmful to the child, I think you're far, far ahead
to find a way to negotiate your way through the interaction
successfully, rather than declaring an ultimatum like
this.

And if hubby thought wearing seat belts and car seats is too much a bother, or
'constraining' or 'insulting to his excellent driving skills' (hey I've known
people like that!)?

This is a safety issue.

...that can be dealt with in multiple ways. Harnesses
are not the *only* option here, though they might be the most
expedient or palatable or whatever for mom. I'm sure that if
we somehow lived in a world where harnesses were not available,
parents in this situation could find another way to keep the
child safe. So, to me, the issue is not purely safety. I assume
both parents want the child to be safe. The question is how
to achieve that goal.

It's also a matter of the parent who (probably) is seldom in that spot, telling
the other how do deal with that situation. If there were another sitaution like
that, like whether or not Mom puts toddler in high chair while she cooks dinner,
that Dad thought was a shortfall in parenting, would you call it a parenting
issue that has to have consistent consensus, and advise Mom to only fix
sandwiches or something to get around it?

What I suggest is that when there is an issue, and
one parent feels that a particular solution is damaging to
the child, it's generally important to negotiate one's way
through the situation rather than declaring a unilateral
decision that leaves the other parent feeling (accurately
or inaccurately) that the child is being harmed. In the
course of conducting those negotiations, I believe it is
generally harmful to the goal of achieving some kind of
agreement if one exaggerates the issue (e.g., by declaring
that the only alternative to the kid being in mortal danger
is a harness) or refuses to entertain other possible options.
The more you are seen to consider and discuss alternatives,
the more likely you are to make your point that the alternative
you prefer is the best one on the table.

Some folks get hung up on little principles as long as they don't need to test
those principles. I think this decision goes to the parent who needs to be
practical.

Except that I suspect when the shoe is on the other
foot and Dad wants to do something that Mom believes is
harmful to the child, Mom won't feel that Dad has the right
to put his foot down and say, "It's on my watch, so I'm
gonna do it my way." I suspect Mom will want some negotiation
to go on there. I'd rather take the time and work my way
through the issue so that I still had the moral high ground
when and if that situation came up.
It may be silly for Dad to feel that a harness
is embarrassing/demeaning/whatever, but in my experience,
people rarely change their views just because you declare
them silly and elect to ignore them.

Best wishes,
Ericka