First trimester ultrasound question

I got some questions after reading the other thread about Down syndrome and
u/s. It's on my mind because I had my first u/s today. I'm on the charts
based on LMP as 9 weeks and 1 day, and the u/s measures me 9 weeks and 4
days. (They won't change DD for that, and with #1 I measured "2 days" ahead,
but I had her when I had her- at 39 weeks. DD didn't matter )

But for some reason even thought I've BTDT I feel like it's new again.

What kinds of things that could be wrong would show up on such an early
ultrasound as a 9 week one? The tech said everything look good, heart rate
was 169...I am thinking back to what the doctor said, that medications get
safer to take after the first 8 weeks (when I was discussing sudafed and
some other things with him). Because the major developing has taken
place...so would any problem that could be med related show up on an u/s so
early?

I'll give 2 examples in my mind, cleft palate, would this show up at 9ww?
Also, I read something saying that sudafed could be linked to some kind of
intestinal malformation that would be obvious at birth, would this show up
now or would it show up on a later u/s? What kinds of things show up early?
Honestly, this 9 ww u/s looks a lot different from #1's 8ww u/s, in #1 she
looked just like a yolk sac and a bean. #2 looks just like a baby- I can see
the arms and legs, which did NOT show up at 8w for #1- maybe it was the u/s
tech, the machine, or maybe that 1 week makes a difference?? But #2 looks so
cute, literally little arms and legs and I can see a face, I can literally
see eyes and nose. None of this was seeable on #1. #1 measured 8w2d, this
one is 9w4d. What a difference.

I trust my dr, but I realize that I still do worry about the fact that even
though it's on the safe if used as directed list, I still do worry about
sudafed. Last time I took nothing, this time I've taken sudafed a couple of
times a day since 4w. :/ The dr has also never guaranteed it's safe- he said
we can't guarantee anything is perfectly safe but let me tell you, sudafed
causes no problems in my experience. But still...ack, you know? I will
always think about it.

"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
I got some questions after reading the other thread about Down syndrome and
u/s. It's on my mind because I had my first u/s today. I'm on the charts
based on LMP as 9 weeks and 1 day, and the u/s measures me 9 weeks and 4
days. (They won't change DD for that, and with #1 I measured "2 days"
ahead, but I had her when I had her- at 39 weeks. DD didn't matter )

But for some reason even thought I've BTDT I feel like it's new again.

What kinds of things that could be wrong would show up on such an early
ultrasound as a 9 week one? The tech said everything look good, heart rate
was 169...I am thinking back to what the doctor said, that medications get
safer to take after the first 8 weeks (when I was discussing sudafed and
some other things with him). Because the major developing has taken
place...so would any problem that could be med related show up on an u/s
so early?

I'll give 2 examples in my mind, cleft palate, would this show up at 9ww?
Also, I read something saying that sudafed could be linked to some kind of
intestinal malformation that would be obvious at birth, would this show up
now or would it show up on a later u/s? What kinds of things show up
early? Honestly, this 9 ww u/s looks a lot different from #1's 8ww u/s, in
#1 she looked just like a yolk sac and a bean. #2 looks just like a baby-
I can see the arms and legs, which did NOT show up at 8w for #1- maybe it
was the u/s tech, the machine, or maybe that 1 week makes a difference??
But #2 looks so cute, literally little arms and legs and I can see a face,
I can literally see eyes and nose. None of this was seeable on #1. #1
measured 8w2d, this one is 9w4d. What a difference.

I thought that any scan earlier than 12 weeks was really just to check it
was a "viable singleton" pregnancy and look at dates. I don't think they
really look further than that plus nucheal fold, here at the 12 week scan.
Having said that I know of a few who have had missing limbs seen at 12
weeks. One child had two missing fingers picked up then. They did check #3
for that but only due to #2. Probably the bigger the abnormality the more
likely they are to spot it at that stage.
Debbie

I thought that any scan earlier than 12 weeks was really just to check it
was a "viable singleton" pregnancy and look at dates. I don't think they
really look further than that plus nucheal fold, here at the 12 week scan.
Having said that I know of a few who have had missing limbs seen at 12
weeks. One child had two missing fingers picked up then. They did check #3
for that but only due to #2. Probably the bigger the abnormality the more
likely they are to spot it at that stage.

I think it's probably one of those things, where you might spot something,
but that you don't even look because the reliability of finding something
would be so small. There is quite a change between even 9 and 12 weeks. At 9
weeks I doubt you can get anything more than a flicker on the heart, whereas
at 12 weeks, you can probably make a reasonable guess whether it has 4
chambers or not. 16 weeks is about the earliest anyone does anomoly
ultrasounds, though even that is not ideal, if it's done then, it's usually
because only one ultrasound is being done, so they are trying to get a
compromise of due date estimation and anomoly screening.

Cheers

Anne

"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
. ..
I thought that any scan earlier than 12 weeks was really just to check it
was a "viable singleton" pregnancy and look at dates. I don't think they
really look further than that plus nucheal fold, here at the 12 week
scan. Having said that I know of a few who have had missing limbs seen at
12 weeks. One child had two missing fingers picked up then. They did
check #3 for that but only due to #2. Probably the bigger the abnormality
the more likely they are to spot it at that stage.

I think it's probably one of those things, where you might spot something,
but that you don't even look because the reliability of finding something
would be so small. There is quite a change between even 9 and 12 weeks. At
9 weeks I doubt you can get anything more than a flicker on the heart,
whereas at 12 weeks, you can probably make a reasonable guess whether it
has 4 chambers or not. 16 weeks is about the earliest anyone does anomoly
ultrasounds, though even that is not ideal, if it's done then, it's
usually because only one ultrasound is being done, so they are trying to
get a compromise of due date estimation and anomoly screening.

That's approximately what I was trying to say. Thanks, Anne,
Debbie

"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
I got some questions after reading the other thread about Down syndrome and
u/s. It's on my mind because I had my first u/s today. I'm on the charts
based on LMP as 9 weeks and 1 day, and the u/s measures me 9 weeks and 4
days. (They won't change DD for that, and with #1 I measured "2 days"
ahead, but I had her when I had her- at 39 weeks. DD didn't matter )

But for some reason even thought I've BTDT I feel like it's new again.

What kinds of things that could be wrong would show up on such an early
ultrasound as a 9 week one? The tech said everything look good, heart rate
was 169...I am thinking back to what the doctor said, that medications get
safer to take after the first 8 weeks (when I was discussing sudafed and
some other things with him). Because the major developing has taken
place...so would any problem that could be med related show up on an u/s
so early?

I'll give 2 examples in my mind, cleft palate, would this show up at 9ww?
Also, I read something saying that sudafed could be linked to some kind of
intestinal malformation that would be obvious at birth, would this show up
now or would it show up on a later u/s? What kinds of things show up
early? Honestly, this 9 ww u/s looks a lot different from #1's 8ww u/s, in
#1 she looked just like a yolk sac and a bean. #2 looks just like a baby-
I can see the arms and legs, which did NOT show up at 8w for #1- maybe it
was the u/s tech, the machine, or maybe that 1 week makes a difference??
But #2 looks so cute, literally little arms and legs and I can see a face,
I can literally see eyes and nose. None of this was seeable on #1. #1
measured 8w2d, this one is 9w4d. What a difference.

I trust my dr, but I realize that I still do worry about the fact that
even though it's on the safe if used as directed list, I still do worry
about sudafed. Last time I took nothing, this time I've taken sudafed a
couple of times a day since 4w. :/ The dr has also never guaranteed it's
safe- he said we can't guarantee anything is perfectly safe but let me
tell you, sudafed causes no problems in my experience. But still...ack,
you know? I will always think about it.


At 9-10 weeks, your baby is still very small. Too small to even bother
looking at the anatomy with any detail. I mean, the u/s can glance and see
head, body, arms and legs, heart beating, measure crown to rump and get
getational age, etc, and then you're done. Most things do not show up on
very early u/s, partly because the anatomy is still too small, still not
completely developed, and because of those reasons, the u/s aren't looking.
Cleft pallet wouldn't show up. An omphalocele or spina bifida likely
wouldn't show up, because a lot of the intestines are still inside the
umbillical area, and the spine is still forming. Heart issues wouldn't show
up, partly because the heart isn't big enough to see, and partly because
it's not done growing to full capabilities.

I hope that helps. All you can do it at this point is celebrate that so
far, everything looks fine.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys -- 01/03/03
Addison Grace -- 09/30/04

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
. ..
"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
I got some questions after reading the other thread about Down syndrome
and u/s. It's on my mind because I had my first u/s today. I'm on the
charts based on LMP as 9 weeks and 1 day, and the u/s measures me 9 weeks
and 4 days. (They won't change DD for that, and with #1 I measured "2
days" ahead, but I had her when I had her- at 39 weeks. DD didn't matter
)

But for some reason even thought I've BTDT I feel like it's new again.

What kinds of things that could be wrong would show up on such an early
ultrasound as a 9 week one? The tech said everything look good, heart
rate was 169...I am thinking back to what the doctor said, that
medications get safer to take after the first 8 weeks (when I was
discussing sudafed and some other things with him). Because the major
developing has taken place...so would any problem that could be med
related show up on an u/s so early?

I'll give 2 examples in my mind, cleft palate, would this show up at 9ww?
Also, I read something saying that sudafed could be linked to some kind
of intestinal malformation that would be obvious at birth, would this
show up now or would it show up on a later u/s? What kinds of things show
up early? Honestly, this 9 ww u/s looks a lot different from #1's 8ww
u/s, in #1 she looked just like a yolk sac and a bean. #2 looks just like
a baby- I can see the arms and legs, which did NOT show up at 8w for #1-
maybe it was the u/s tech, the machine, or maybe that 1 week makes a
difference?? But #2 looks so cute, literally little arms and legs and I
can see a face, I can literally see eyes and nose. None of this was
seeable on #1. #1 measured 8w2d, this one is 9w4d. What a difference.

I trust my dr, but I realize that I still do worry about the fact that
even though it's on the safe if used as directed list, I still do worry
about sudafed. Last time I took nothing, this time I've taken sudafed a
couple of times a day since 4w. :/ The dr has also never guaranteed it's
safe- he said we can't guarantee anything is perfectly safe but let me
tell you, sudafed causes no problems in my experience. But still...ack,
you know? I will always think about it.


At 9-10 weeks, your baby is still very small. Too small to even bother
looking at the anatomy with any detail. I mean, the u/s can glance and
see head, body, arms and legs, heart beating, measure crown to rump and
get getational age, etc, and then you're done. Most things do not show up
on very early u/s, partly because the anatomy is still too small, still
not completely developed, and because of those reasons, the u/s aren't
looking. Cleft pallet wouldn't show up. An omphalocele or spina bifida
likely wouldn't show up, because a lot of the intestines are still inside
the umbillical area, and the spine is still forming. Heart issues
wouldn't show up, partly because the heart isn't big enough to see, and
partly because it's not done growing to full capabilities.

I hope that helps. All you can do it at this point is celebrate that so
far, everything looks fine.
--

Part of what confuses me about this issue is my doctor said medications are
safer after the first 8 weeks because the major developing is finished. My
husband even mentioned this, he said the doctor made it sound like
"everything's developed". I know just because u/s doesn't see it doesn't
mean its not developed, but it still feels to me like there is a LOT of
developing still to come. I mean, I can't just say "Oh whew, meds are safer,
all the development of organs has taken place" Of course, for me, meds =
sudafed mostly, but I am still worrying a fair amount about needing it,
because I've had to take some since 4ww in order to breathe, and an
antihistamine as well, and there is just no PROOF that medications are safe.
No guarantees. Dr. weighed my risk vs. benefit but it still feels like, if
something goes wrong, I'll feel possibly at fault. Something could have been
wrong during #1, but then I did not take any meds at all 1sr trimester and
in fact, no allergy meds until almost the end. It's a different time of the
year for one thing and also, this allergy season is the worst in recent
years that I can remember. I'm feeling ok as long as I am on the 2 meds. I
suspect I'd probably suffer panic without them because I get so terribly
stopped up. My husband's philosphy is "The doctor said it's ok so why
worry." When I went to my u/s today I discovered that although I have not
been talking about it with anyone (offline), and have tried not to think
about it, I do feel some guilt and worry about taking medications. :/

Everything looked good though, I was amazed at the difference in #1's 8ww
scan and this one. #1 was literally just yolk sac and a peanut. #1 had a
heart rate of 160 IIRC. #2 has a heart rate of 169, it sounds good, and
while definitely not detailed, you can see the 4 limbs and head and eye and
nose area. It was beautiful.

I can't remember the name of it, but in Internet searching, pseudoephedrine
has been linked to the intestines not fully forming. I wouldn't be worried
about this at all if it was like last time and I was taking it in 3rd
trimester. The doctor info sheet says sudafed is on the list of meds that
should be reasonably safe as long as the package directions are followed.
Well, that's 2 (30mg each) pills every 4-6 hours not to exceed 8 in 24
hours. I was taking one pill at bedtime and one more when I wake up 6 hours
later to pee so I get a full night of breathability. The pollen is
everywhere now and I had to get back on Zyrtec daily instead of as-needed,
and for a couple weeks I have had to take the full dose of sudafed at
bedtime, 2 pills. plus usually take another half or full dose in the
morning, and then have been taking one pill before I want to nap because my
nose has been stopped up so firmly. I feel guilty about this even thought
the dr. okays it, just because I do. I can't help but worry.. the doctor did
tell me that there are all kinds of medications pregnant women have to take
that are NOT on the "reasonably safe" list they hand out and things usually
end up find, he reminded me of women who have a condition that requires
staying on meds- epilepsy, asthma, a many others. It does make me feel maybe
a little better, but at the same time....someone with epilepsy will have
seizures that can endanger the baby and their own self as well. If I don't
take sudafed- well, my nose will be stopped up. That doesn't sound as
serious or urgent. (Except with me it causes panic but still, that feels
like its in my head and not a real thing).

I am very thrilled that I at least have heard the heartbeat now. I think I
remember them being able to pick it up on doppler?? at 8 weeks last time,
maybe even 6..if I remember right. This time, they are more laidback and not
rushing things and aren't even going to try the Doppler until 12 weeks. This
doesn't really bother me..but hearing it for the first time really
established the pregnancy in my mind so it was a relief. I do wish I could
stop worrying about the sudafed but I know I will not until I have a healthy
baby in my arms. I'm not obsessing over it but it crosses my mind every time
I take a dose. sigh.

"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
. ..
"beyond the pale" wrote in message
...
I got some questions after reading the other thread about Down syndrome
and u/s. It's on my mind because I had my first u/s today. I'm on the
charts based on LMP as 9 weeks and 1 day, and the u/s measures me 9 weeks
and 4 days. (They won't change DD for that, and with #1 I measured "2
days" ahead, but I had her when I had her- at 39 weeks. DD didn't matter
)

But for some reason even thought I've BTDT I feel like it's new again.

What kinds of things that could be wrong would show up on such an early
ultrasound as a 9 week one? The tech said everything look good, heart
rate was 169...I am thinking back to what the doctor said, that
medications get safer to take after the first 8 weeks (when I was
discussing sudafed and some other things with him). Because the major
developing has taken place...so would any problem that could be med
related show up on an u/s so early?

I'll give 2 examples in my mind, cleft palate, would this show up at
9ww? Also, I read something saying that sudafed could be linked to some
kind of intestinal malformation that would be obvious at birth, would
this show up now or would it show up on a later u/s? What kinds of
things show up early? Honestly, this 9 ww u/s looks a lot different from
#1's 8ww u/s, in #1 she looked just like a yolk sac and a bean. #2 looks
just like a baby- I can see the arms and legs, which did NOT show up at
8w for #1- maybe it was the u/s tech, the machine, or maybe that 1 week
makes a difference?? But #2 looks so cute, literally little arms and
legs and I can see a face, I can literally see eyes and nose. None of
this was seeable on #1. #1 measured 8w2d, this one is 9w4d. What a
difference.

I trust my dr, but I realize that I still do worry about the fact that
even though it's on the safe if used as directed list, I still do worry
about sudafed. Last time I took nothing, this time I've taken sudafed a
couple of times a day since 4w. :/ The dr has also never guaranteed it's
safe- he said we can't guarantee anything is perfectly safe but let me
tell you, sudafed causes no problems in my experience. But still...ack,
you know? I will always think about it.


At 9-10 weeks, your baby is still very small. Too small to even bother
looking at the anatomy with any detail. I mean, the u/s can glance and
see head, body, arms and legs, heart beating, measure crown to rump and
get getational age, etc, and then you're done. Most things do not show
up on very early u/s, partly because the anatomy is still too small,
still not completely developed, and because of those reasons, the u/s
aren't looking. Cleft pallet wouldn't show up. An omphalocele or spina
bifida likely wouldn't show up, because a lot of the intestines are still
inside the umbillical area, and the spine is still forming. Heart issues
wouldn't show up, partly because the heart isn't big enough to see, and
partly because it's not done growing to full capabilities.

I hope that helps. All you can do it at this point is celebrate that so
far, everything looks fine.
--

Part of what confuses me about this issue is my doctor said medications
are safer after the first 8 weeks because the major developing is
finished. My husband even mentioned this, he said the doctor made it sound
like "everything's developed".

The *major* developing is finished. There are hands and feet and fingers
and toes, and nose, and kidneys and liver and heart, etc. But there are
still things maturing and developing, and sometimes just getting bigger.
Many many things are not visible on u/s at this point, but there, just too
tiny to really see.

I know just because u/s doesn't see it doesn't mean its not developed, but
it still feels to me like there is a LOT of developing still to come. I
mean, I can't just say "Oh whew, meds are safer, all the development of
organs has taken place" Of course, for me, meds = sudafed mostly, but I am
still worrying a fair amount about needing it, because I've had to take
some since 4ww in order to breathe, and an antihistamine as well, and
there is just no PROOF that medications are safe. No guarantees. Dr.
weighed my risk vs. benefit but it still feels like, if something goes
wrong, I'll feel possibly at fault. Something could have been wrong during
#1, but then I did not take any meds at all 1sr trimester and in fact, no
allergy meds until almost the end. It's a different time of the year for
one thing and also, this allergy season is the worst in recent years that
I can remember. I'm feeling ok as long as I am on the 2 meds. I suspect
I'd probably suffer panic without them because I get so terribly stopped
up. My husband's philosphy is "The doctor said it's ok so why worry." When
I went to my u/s today I discovered that although I have not been talking
about it with anyone (offline), and have tried not to think about it, I do
feel some guilt and worry about taking medications. :/

You have to remember that sudafed is on the list of meds that are okay to
take when pregnant, that means that lots and lots and lots and lots of
pregnant women take sudafed every day, and their babies are fine. Odds are
that yours will be too. If, God forbid something did go wrong with your
baby, the chances of it actually having anything to do with your taking
sudafed are slim.

Everything looked good though, I was amazed at the difference in #1's 8ww
scan and this one. #1 was literally just yolk sac and a peanut. #1 had a
heart rate of 160 IIRC. #2 has a heart rate of 169, it sounds good, and
while definitely not detailed, you can see the 4 limbs and head and eye
and nose area. It was beautiful.

I can't remember the name of it, but in Internet searching,
pseudoephedrine has been linked to the intestines not fully forming. I
wouldn't be worried about this at all if it was like last time and I was
taking it in 3rd trimester. The doctor info sheet says sudafed is on the
list of meds that should be reasonably safe as long as the package
directions are followed. Well, that's 2 (30mg each) pills every 4-6 hours
not to exceed 8 in 24 hours. I was taking one pill at bedtime and one more
when I wake up 6 hours later to pee so I get a full night of
breathability. The pollen is everywhere now and I had to get back on
Zyrtec daily instead of as-needed, and for a couple weeks I have had to
take the full dose of sudafed at bedtime, 2 pills. plus usually take
another half or full dose in the morning, and then have been taking one
pill before I want to nap because my nose has been stopped up so firmly. I
feel guilty about this even thought the dr. okays it, just because I do. I
can't help but worry.. the doctor did tell me that there are all kinds of
medications pregnant women have to take that are NOT on the "reasonably
safe" list they hand out and things usually end up find, he reminded me of
women who have a condition that requires staying on meds- epilepsy,
asthma, a many others. It does make me feel maybe a little better, but at
the same time....someone with epilepsy will have seizures that can
endanger the baby and their own self as well. If I don't take sudafed-
well, my nose will be stopped up. That doesn't sound as serious or urgent.
(Except with me it causes panic but still, that feels like its in my head
and not a real thing).

It sounds to me like you are taking it at or below the recommended dose.
Your doctor says it's okay, because it is. Also, you have to remember that
the recommended doses, and the "not to exceed" doses are usually lower than
they actually need to be. So the real threshold for damage is likely MUCH
higher than the not to exceed dose. It's like saccharine causing
cancer...one packet in a cup of coffee every day is not likely to be a
problem, but eating 3 cups a day would be.

I am very thrilled that I at least have heard the heartbeat now. I think I
remember them being able to pick it up on doppler?? at 8 weeks last time,
maybe even 6..if I remember right. This time, they are more laidback and
not rushing things and aren't even going to try the Doppler until 12
weeks. This doesn't really bother me..but hearing it for the first time
really established the pregnancy in my mind so it was a relief. I do wish
I could stop worrying about the sudafed but I know I will not until I have
a healthy baby in my arms. I'm not obsessing over it but it crosses my
mind every time I take a dose. sigh.

The heartbeat cannot usually be heard via doppler until 10-12 weeks, so I
doubt that you heard it at 6 or 8 weeks last time. They aren't being laid
back, they are waiting until they have a reasonable chance of hearing it
with the doppler before trying. Otherwise they are setting you up for a
scare, where they would search and search and search for it with the
doppler, not find it, then need to either do an u/s or send you out for one,
all the while you'd be panicking thinking that your baby had died.

If it's really bothering you every time you take a dose of sudafed, why
don't you try a couple of other methods. If you can find one other
alternative method to clear your nose with out sudafed, and you replace your
dose of sudafed even just once a day, you'll feel a little better about
everything, because you will be making the effort. And if you try and try
and try everything else and can find no other solutions, then hopefully
you'll feel better about taking the meds because you did try to find another
solution.

Have you tried, or would these things work, say, before a nap, or first
thing in the morning (not before bed):

Saline rinse
hot hot hot hot shower
head over a pot of hot water
menthol or eucalyptus rub under your nose
wasabi or other hot sauces
Breathe Right strips

Hopefully someone else can suggest other options that you may not have
tried.

Good luck.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys -- 01/03/03
Addison Grace -- 09/30/04

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Part of what confuses me about this issue is my doctor said medications
are safer after the first 8 weeks because the major developing is
finished.

consider it a bit like a mould, at least for some of the parts, though the
developing isn't done, it's been determined how it is going to develop. A
lot of things are formed by cells dividing in a certain way, or joining
together in a certain way, so whether an abnormality such as a bicornate
uterus (to pick a random one!), might not be visible even on an ultrasound
of a newborn baby, but it's been set from very early in the cell division
process.

Obviously that's not how everything works, there are all sorts of occurances
that can change things later, but I don't see any reason not to trust your
doctor, though personally I'd have probably been happier with 12 weeks as
marker of some sort.

Don't cut yourself up about it, you were clearly having a really hard time,
the drugs you took have very low risks of harm to the foetus, the chances
are everything is fine.

Cheers

Anne