kids and their furniture?

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
So, I don't think that "maybe it's not as
precious to someone else as it is to you" is ever
a justification. It doesn't matter. You never
treat anything carelessly if it belongs to someone
else, even if you think it's silly.

I don't mean that I would treat things that are not precious carelessly. I
would treat them as they are normally meant to be treated. I just wouldn't
give them extra special gentle treatment. That's a lot different than being
cavalier with others' belongings. I wouldn't do that. But a Matchbox car
gets crashed and buried in sand. That's the usage I had in mind for them.
Maybe not anymore, but it wouldn't occur to me before this that they get
played with any other way. Throwing them in a box (not from across the
room, I wouldn't do that because they're hard and might damage a wall or
something), is not careless nor cavelier, at least before I knew anyone just
took them out to look at them.

What if someone collected balls and didn't want them bounced because they
might get scuffed or dirtied with oil? How in the world are you supposed to
know that? They are made for bouncing. You would constantly have to ask
about everything, which would make you look pretty silly for having to ask
if the ball can be bounced.



I've been told that my great-grandmother would buy her kids toys, and
not allow them to play with them, because they might get dirty or
broken. So, as adults, they had some lovely toys that they'd always
owned -- but they'd only been allowed to take them out, look at them,
and put them away. They lasted a long, long time, and were beautiful.

I've know people who didn't allow their kids to play with Beanie Babies
-- because they might damage them, and they wouldn't be worth as much.
(These were Beanie Babies they'd given the kids, and the kids were
pretty confused.)

I got chastised at one house for putting their every-day glasses in the
dishwasher. Washing them in the dishwasher etches them, so they don't
last as long, so glasses were always washed by hand. Doesn't everybody
know that?

And my MIL had to tell me that, because of plumbing issues, they didn't
actually USE their garbage disposal in the way that most people would.
(Unfortunately, SHE didn't know that their problems were unusual, and
was upset that I put potato peels down the disposal. Fortunately, DH
understood what was going on, and let her know that their problems
didn't exist for most people with garbage disposals, and blamed himself
for not telling me not to use it.)

Then there was the friend I had who always, always swept her carpet
carefully before she vacuumed it, because that way the vacuum cleaner
would last longer.

My point is that people differ in what they consider "normal wear and
tear" use, and it doesn't mean that any of them are wrong. It's pretty
clear from what I've read here that I'm not the only one who wouldn't
have thought twice about tossing metal cars into a toybox -- it wouldn't
result in any more damage than the way most if the kids I'd watched play
with them.

(The father should have stopped as soon as the boy told him to -- but
that's a different issue.)

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Banty" wrote in message
...
Would the evident gentle play going on, and the really good condition of
the car
come into consideration, even if you think it so unusual that this toy not
be
purchased with the intent of destroying and defacing it??

As I see it, the cars are durable and are meant to be crashed. Crashing
does not destroy. I never thought of chipped paint as equal to a destroyed
car. They still run, they still play and the average boy wouldn't even
notice.



What if someone collected balls and didn't want them bounced because they
might get scuffed or dirtied with oil? How in the world are you supposed
to
know that? They are made for bouncing. You would constantly have to ask
about everything, which would make you look pretty silly for having to ask
if the ball can be bounced.


If you took a basketball and rolled it in motor oil, that would be
upsetting
too. Or does the owner have to put you on notice "please do not roll my
basketball in motor oil"??

I didn't say roll it in oil, did I? Balls get dirty even when you don't
deliberately roll it in oil. Just bouncing it in the street gets it grimy
from the oil in the street. At least if it's a street that has ever had any
cars run on it.


Would you take a baseball off the shelf and throw it in the woods? If the
owner
said in despair "that was the one with Derek Jeter's signature on it"
woudl you
say Oh WELL it's just a BALL it's to be thrown!"

A ball with a signature on it is obviously not the average ball. You are
stretching things. I wouldn't throw any balls into the woods because that
is not average everyday use. I am talking about regular wear and tear and
the normal use of a toy.

Hey, a lot of the dolls I've seen have their hair chopped by their young
owners,
can I have of your dolls for a minute?

You know that is not the intent of use for a doll.


How about treating things well, and for any treatment otherwise taking the
cue
from the owner? That sounds like a policy that would allow folks to get
along.
How about it? Consider it.

Of course, if somenone were to mention they treat a particular item
especially carefully, I would respect that. Like I said, DH won't let me
touch his baseball cards and I don't.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 03:43:16 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toypup else.
The cars, for instance. I don't know a lot of boys who take great
care not to scratch up their cars, because normal use of the cars involve
crashing them together. Most children would know not to smash them with a
hammer to destroy them, but they would not know to treat them gently so as
not to scratch them. Heck, even the dad didn't know. So, if something is
to be treated with more care than usual, then it needs to be kept from
others who might not know how not to damage them. On this vein, DH won't
even let me touch his baseball cards.



Why would only *precious* things be treated with care? Especially others'
stuff.

Things that are precious need to be handled with extra care because they are
precious. Things that are not precious are expected to be handled everyday
care. I never said children should be reckless with everyday objects, but
normal handling may result in wear and tear. If all of your things need
special handling, well, you're a bit different from anyone I know and I'd be
afraid to come over for fear of accidentally damaging something. There's no
way for most people to know that an everyday object needs extra special
care.

I'm with Banty and Erika on this thing. I think everything should be
taken care of, not just precious things. So, I dont care of the couch
is ten years old, ya dont bounce on it, and I dont care if the bed is
second hand, you dont write on headboard with Markers, And even
though the dishes may be second hand corelle, yes, they deserve to be
washed and dried and treated properly. So even though leggo may be an
everyday toy, leaving pieces around to get stepped on, thrown out, or
lost is not acceptable.

Aside from the primary discussion, I happen to not believe in "toy
boxes" because things do get damaged and in general, everyime the kid
wants to get somethign out, they are dumping other toys out that they
may not play with. So we have alwyas had plastic shelves and bins.

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
My point is that people differ in what they consider "normal wear and
tear" use, and it doesn't mean that any of them are wrong. It's pretty
clear from what I've read here that I'm not the only one who wouldn't
have thought twice about tossing metal cars into a toybox -- it wouldn't
result in any more damage than the way most if the kids I'd watched play
with them.

(The father should have stopped as soon as the boy told him to -- but
that's a different issue.)

I'd say I agree with you. I have relatives who own a leather couch no one
has ever sat in to keep it new. I don't think they'd accuse anyone of being
destructive for coming over and accidentally being the first to sit on it
and possibly scratch it, but I don't know.

I once unwittingly ruined my ex-BF's dad's chair. You see, he was a
germaphobe and wanted his chair in pristine condition, touched only by him.
I didn't know that, because no one warned me. He came in and saw me sitting
in his chair. My ex-BF was mortified. I was only in it for a minute, but
my ex-BF told me that was enough to ruin his chair. I guess sitting in
chairs can be considered careless disregard of other's property to some
people.

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
I'm with Banty and Erika on this thing. I think everything should be
taken care of, not just precious things. So, I dont care of the couch
is ten years old, ya dont bounce on it,

But can you sit on it?

and I dont care if the bed is
second hand, you dont write on headboard with Markers,

But can you lay on it?

And even
though the dishes may be second hand corelle, yes, they deserve to be
washed and dried and treated properly.

But can you eat from it?

My point is, though you may not be destructive with it, you use it the way
it was intended. Like I said in another post, I have relatives with a couch
that is used only for display. How is anyone to know that? If they invite
you over, assuming a sleepover or party where you are not formally invited
to sit here or there and the couch is not mentioned as off limits (because
everyone ought to know a pristine looking couch is only for display), are
you showing blatant disregard to their property for sitting on the couch?

Likewise, toys usually go in the toybox when a toybox is present. How is
the dad to know the cars don't go there?

In article ,
Barbara Bomberger wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 03:43:16 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toypup else.
The cars, for instance. I don't know a lot of boys who take great
care not to scratch up their cars, because normal use of the cars involve
crashing them together. Most children would know not to smash them with a
hammer to destroy them, but they would not know to treat them gently so as
not to scratch them. Heck, even the dad didn't know. So, if something is
to be treated with more care than usual, then it needs to be kept from
others who might not know how not to damage them. On this vein, DH won't
even let me touch his baseball cards.



Why would only *precious* things be treated with care? Especially others'
stuff.

Things that are precious need to be handled with extra care because they are
precious. Things that are not precious are expected to be handled everyday
care. I never said children should be reckless with everyday objects, but
normal handling may result in wear and tear. If all of your things need
special handling, well, you're a bit different from anyone I know and I'd be
afraid to come over for fear of accidentally damaging something. There's no
way for most people to know that an everyday object needs extra special
care.

I'm with Banty and Erika on this thing. I think everything should be
taken care of, not just precious things. So, I dont care of the couch
is ten years old, ya dont bounce on it, and I dont care if the bed is
second hand, you dont write on headboard with Markers, And even
though the dishes may be second hand corelle, yes, they deserve to be
washed and dried and treated properly. So even though leggo may be an
everyday toy, leaving pieces around to get stepped on, thrown out, or
lost is not acceptable.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that waton carelessness is
called for -- only that there is a difference of opinion over what
constitutes "normal wear and tear".

Noone would suggest that just because your corelle is second hand it
should be thrown on the floor, walked on, or put away dirty.

On the other hand, I'd be surprised if you expected it to be washed by
hand (assuming you have a dishwasher) and handled the same way you would
handle delicate china. (Which, at least in some homes, means only used
once or twice a year, and put away with spacers between each of the
plates to reduce the chance of chipping.)

Different things require different treatment. I'd expect my kid's rag
dolls to be carried around, taken to bed for naps, etc. On the other
hand, when they were old enough for porcelain dolls, I expected them to
spend most of their time on the shelf, taken down occassionally for
dressing or fussing over, but never taken to bed. They are different
classes of dolls, requiring different treatment. No one would expect
all dolls to be treated the way porcelain dolls are treated -- that
would be silly, and would be kind of counter to the point of the rag
dolls.

Before reading this thread, I'd have put most die-cast cars in the
relatively casual category. I'd expect them to be put away properly --
but in my house that would have been in the bin where we kept toy cars,
floor road maps, road signs and a few other things, and they'd have just
been tossed in. I've been educated here to understand that some people
put matchbox cars in a different category, and expect them to be treated
more like collectables.

Not everyting needs to be treated like porcelain dolls (or blown Easter
eggs); that doesn't mean it's OK to engage in wanton destruction, but
kids do need to be able to play with toys in a way that allows for
reasonable use and therefore reasonable wear and tear.

I'm just trying to figure out how to best know when something that *I*
think of as corelle is in the "china" category for the people I'm
visiting.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article , toypup says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
Would the evident gentle play going on, and the really good condition of
the car
come into consideration, even if you think it so unusual that this toy not
be
purchased with the intent of destroying and defacing it??

As I see it, the cars are durable and are meant to be crashed. Crashing
does not destroy. I never thought of chipped paint as equal to a destroyed
car. They still run, they still play and the average boy wouldn't even
notice.

Do you adopt such low standards for how you would handle others' stuff in
general?

Why second guess what damage would be noticed? Why not just be careful??




What if someone collected balls and didn't want them bounced because they
might get scuffed or dirtied with oil? How in the world are you supposed
to
know that? They are made for bouncing. You would constantly have to ask
about everything, which would make you look pretty silly for having to ask
if the ball can be bounced.


If you took a basketball and rolled it in motor oil, that would be
upsetting
too. Or does the owner have to put you on notice "please do not roll my
basketball in motor oil"??

I didn't say roll it in oil, did I? Balls get dirty even when you don't
deliberately roll it in oil. Just bouncing it in the street gets it grimy
from the oil in the street. At least if it's a street that has ever had any
cars run on it.

If in YOUR house there are a lot of grease slicks in the driveway, b-balls would
just get a little oily, wouldn't they? "Oh well, it's a b-ball, meant to be
used outside..."



Would you take a baseball off the shelf and throw it in the woods? If the
owner
said in despair "that was the one with Derek Jeter's signature on it"
woudl you
say Oh WELL it's just a BALL it's to be thrown!"

A ball with a signature on it is obviously not the average ball. You are
stretching things. I wouldn't throw any balls into the woods because that
is not average everyday use. I am talking about regular wear and tear and
the normal use of a toy.

How would you necessarily know? Perhaps you didn't notice the signature.
Perhaps you just don't know about signed baseballs and never heard of Derek
Jeter?? What if there is just a sentimental value attached to it (first ball
Dad pitched to her, maybe.)

This isn't a stretch at all - this is basic.

How about a general priniple that covers all these things - treat others' stuff
with care. Period.


Hey, a lot of the dolls I've seen have their hair chopped by their young
owners,
can I have of your dolls for a minute?

You know that is not the intent of use for a doll.

I don't know! *I* did that with my dolls. Just about all the little girls I
know do that with their dolls! Isn't this a learning-playacting thing?

If my standard for how I treat others stuff *my* particular understanding of how
it is used, I'd try a trim on your doll. Why would you have a problem with it?
As far as I know, that's what dolls are for. So what are you so uptight about
- can I use your doll?



How about treating things well, and for any treatment otherwise taking the
cue
from the owner? That sounds like a policy that would allow folks to get
along.
How about it? Consider it.

Of course, if somenone were to mention they treat a particular item
especially carefully, I would respect that. Like I said, DH won't let me
touch his baseball cards and I don't.

Why do I have to put up special advance notice "I like my things to be damaged;
don't damage them."? Most people I know would be insulted by the implication
that they have to be told.

Just

don't

damage

other

people's

stuff.

Works all the way around. Takes a little restraint sometimes, but really, it's
worth it.

Banty

Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toypup else.
The cars, for instance. I don't know a lot of boys who take great
care not to scratch up their cars, because normal use of the cars involve
crashing them together. Most children would know not to smash them with a
hammer to destroy them, but they would not know to treat them gently so as
not to scratch them. Heck, even the dad didn't know. So, if something is
to be treated with more care than usual, then it needs to be kept from
others who might not know how not to damage them. On this vein, DH won't
even let me touch his baseball cards.



Why would only *precious* things be treated with care? Especially others'
stuff.

Things that are precious need to be handled with extra care because they are
precious. Things that are not precious are expected to be handled everyday
care. I never said children should be reckless with everyday objects, but
normal handling may result in wear and tear. If all of your things need
special handling, well, you're a bit different from anyone I know and I'd be
afraid to come over for fear of accidentally damaging something. There's no
way for most people to know that an everyday object needs extra special
care.


But normal everyday care should be careful enough to allow things to last as
well as they can. Throwing metal things that are carefully painted and detailed
damages them. Drawing grafitti on furniture defaces it. I don't see how
refraining from damaging things is "special handling".

Yes and no -- don't you also have some metal cars that are used in the
sandbox? (We have indoor metal cars and outdoor metal cars -- both are
stacked in their respective boxes, despite Mr. Collector Dad pointing
out that the Tonka trucks from the 1960's (indoor) are very valuable.
We've always treated them like toys -- they get zoomed around inside
and indeed even suffer crashes when going down block ramps. Such is the
life of toys -- they're not tossed around, but part of being a truck is
going down block ramps, in my book.)

If you came to my house, and accidentally dropped a bowl, that would be one
thing. But if by "normal wear and tear" you mean chips from tossing it through
the air into the sink, right, you really shouldn't come over and visit. But
I've known adults like that, who go around saying "****-tappens" while they do
amazing things that would quite unlikely *not* lead to damage (things like,
pulling something out of the bottom of a stack with one hand without bracing the
other items). Indeed, they'e not welcome at my house. It's not a very
attractive attribute to have in a person one shares space with in a house or in
a workplace and sometimes even in public. So it's something to teach children
*not* to do.

Banty

I'm with you on keeping things undamaged (hey, most of our toys are
from the stash my parents had, and they're still going strong, 50-60
years later), but in this example I don't think it was wanton
recklessness. Then again, we don't typically let parents clean up here,
as I can't stand the 'get everything off the floor' approach given that
we have plastic boxes where everything is sorted (legos with legos,
trucks with trucks, wooden little people with wooden little people --
the wholesale gathering and placing drives me and DD1 crazy.)

Caledonia

In article , toypup says...


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
.. .
I'm with Banty and Erika on this thing. I think everything should be
taken care of, not just precious things. So, I dont care of the couch
is ten years old, ya dont bounce on it,

But can you sit on it?

and I dont care if the bed is
second hand, you dont write on headboard with Markers,

But can you lay on it?

And even
though the dishes may be second hand corelle, yes, they deserve to be
washed and dried and treated properly.

But can you eat from it?

My point is, though you may not be destructive with it, you use it the way
it was intended. Like I said in another post, I have relatives with a couch
that is used only for display. How is anyone to know that? If they invite
you over, assuming a sleepover or party where you are not formally invited
to sit here or there and the couch is not mentioned as off limits (because
everyone ought to know a pristine looking couch is only for display), are
you showing blatant disregard to their property for sitting on the couch?

But this is a false dichotomy. Not damaging stuff does not mean not even using
things, and I think these stories of extremely touchy people are relevant,
actually.

The main thing about the die cast cars, is that you and ohters presume that it
be used destructively.

If at YOUR house the old leather chair was jumped upon because it's old, that's
how you use it, right? Does that mean you would jump on any old leather chair??
No. You would consider that you've been putting your own chair to *destructive*
use. And you wouldn't assume that someone else's chair is likewise used
desstructively. But it would be OK to sit on it.


Likewise, toys usually go in the toybox when a toybox is present. How is
the dad to know the cars don't go there?


What, do you think toyboxes are all Big Cosmic Toyboxes where All Toys in Sight
Go? How did a toybox turn into a black hole, or a Bose Einstein condensation
site?!?

This toybox had big (like, at least 8 or 12 inches) things in it. And we never
*throw* toys in there, no more than you would *throw* your dishes on the shelf
to put them away, animated cartoon style. Things are *placed* in there to put
them away.

The room (like any kid's room *I've* seen but we seem to deal with different
species of kids!) has many OTHER places where different kind of things go as
well as a toybox.

Banty

Caledonia wrote:
Banty wrote:

But normal everyday care should be careful enough to allow things to last as
well as they can. Throwing metal things that are carefully painted and detailed
damages them. Drawing grafitti on furniture defaces it. I don't see how
refraining from damaging things is "special handling".


Yes and no -- don't you also have some metal cars that are used in the
sandbox?

No need to unnecessarily complicate this. The cars that
it's fine to bang around and get full of crud are banged around
and full of crud, no? Again, the issue is causing the item to
change state. It's probably a safe bet that the cars that are
banged up and dinged don't have to be played with as carefully
as the ones in pristine condition. This isn't rocket science.
If your actions would leave the item worse off, don't do it
without explicit permission.

Best wishes,
Ericka