discipline

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:22:46 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
wrote:

Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.

Yelling is counterproductive.

Whisper instead. Or don't talk at all. Just take her back.

Do sit with her for a bit in the bedroom. If she is having
nightmares, stay calm and deal with cuddling her in the
bedroom.

Perhaps you can stay and rub her back a bit early in the
routine instead of waiting until she comes out to deal with
the fears.

Also make sure that she is not doing something very active
right before bed and that she isn't watching scary tv shows
or movies during the day.

Ask her more about what she is afraid of so that she can
define her fears. Then deal with them on a realistic basis
or a fantasy tale if that suits her better.


When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to
your bed NOW !!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"

This belittles her feelings and she knows you don't understand.

Can you remember how you felt when you were little and scared?
How did your parents help you deal with those fears? If they didn't
help and you are now doing what they did, think about changing
what you are doing.

"GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE

Thanks for all suggestions

KAren

I realize that it is difficult for anyone to change their own
behaviors in parenting because we all learned what we lived,
but you can change. It doesn't mean you won't slip, but that
you have to keep working on it.

As for holding her down, locking her door or strait jacketing her,
I realize you are kidding, but *think* about what you are saying
here about how frustrated you feel. Then try to remember that
she is only a little girl and her fears are strong too.

Validate her feelings, but not her behavior. Try to find ways
that you and she can cope with your feelings that work for
both of you. Enlist your husband in this too. Daddy's are
great for scaring away monsters.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"James and Karen Stewart" wrote in message
...

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
wrote:

I still find that positive discipline works best though and rule
setting is best done *with* children rather than by parent fiat.

Positive discipline has been tried but I just haven't got the patience for
ti in some cases, but sometimes it seems to work, it is hard to use it
when
I am used of being disciplined the way I do it...positive discipline is
new
to many of us and although I have read the books on it and agree I have
had
a hard time figuring out ways to do it effectively.

It is hard, but if the easy way is ineffective, then not much is
gained by going that route, except for perhaps freeing up time
for the parent. But your sentence above, on what we are "used to",
is an important one. We all fall into that trap -- teachers often
teach as they were once taught, parents parent as they were
parented, even if it means physical abuse. It happened to them,
and they turned out okay (or so they think), so it must be right
to continue it. Getting over that hump, in lots of areas of life,
is very difficult.


P. Tierney

Dave {Reply Address in.sig} wrote:

In message , Naomi Pardue
wrote:

You are the parents here. Your job isn't to be monsters or ogres, but
your job IS to make, and enforce, the reasonable rules that your children
need to allow them to function in a world that has a certain number of
rules and
expectations. It may not be the fun part of parenting, but it's certainly
one of the most important parts.

I think the important point is that if you don't enforce rules when they are
young then you (and possibly society) will pay for it later when your kids
turn out to be uncontrollable as teenagers.
-------------
You're nothing but an abusive asshole. That's NOT where criminality
comes from in people, actually it comes from being treated as YOU
recommend here!


Never issue a command unless
you are fully prepared to enforce it or provide suitable punishment (which
can be simple as turning off the TV or a short timeout period or removal of
a treat). The child is free to choose his own path but must learn that some
choices have unpleasant consequences.

Christopher gets a polite request to do something (or to stop doing it)
followed by a stern one followed by direct parental action if he still
persists. If he throws a tantrum on the floor as a result then he is
ignored until he calms down. He's generally well-behaved now and tantrums
rarely last long because he knows they aren't effective in getting his own
way.
---------------
Your variety of ****ty disonoring abuse is what causes kids to hate
your guts, and to hate society, assuming it is just like YOU are, and
become the criminals you're so afraid of. Actually you're just an
immature adult who can't handle being denied your every whim, and you
seek to hurt people to get your way, you will probably slap your wife
around too, because your sort of personality is the PRIME source of
that kind of crap!

YOU got that way by being abused in same sick manner that you're now
recommending. This is called the generational cycle of abuse.


Bed time is handled by putting him in his cot, turning out the light and
pulling the door mostly closed. Most times he'll be asleep pretty quickly
but occasionally he'll have a bad night. The rule is that someone might go
in and pick him up for a cuddle and put him back down but he doesn't leave
the room until morning.

(apart from the one night where I peeked in to see why he was crying and saw
that both he and the cot were covered in vomit, he did get to come out that
night.)

Dave
----------------
Gee, he has to throw up from being hysterical to be comforted?
How ****ing stupid and sick of you!
Steve

James and Karen Stewart wrote:

Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find myself
doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she doesn't
have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.

She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to stay
with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her room
alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or watch
a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to prove
to her that there is nothing in there.

What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
night.

She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
problem fixed.

Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together lately.
Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a sitter...because we
do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug. but
it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time for
us with the kids.

Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and will
need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.

Any ideas
Thanks
Karen
-------------------
You want time for sex, but you're couching it in terms inspired
by your shame, which stimulates you to anger and resentment, thus angry
efforts at "discipline".

Instead, interest your children in leaving you alone and watching
a tape in the next room while you have sex in the bedroom. If
you're not sane enough to leave the door open, and make sex appear
normal to your children, then at least tell them that you have to
take a half hour or so doing what mommies and daddies have to do
together to stay married. Then come out and cuddle with them
afterwards and they will feel the relaxed difference in your
demeanor and know that you did something very nice together.

You see, this whole thing REALLY isn't about "discipline" at all,
it's about getting everyone's needs met, and you can ask that of
your kids if you're nice to them, and they will help you. But honor
their feelings and needs, and they will honor yours gladly!

But putting kids to bed early is merely abuse, they simply aren't
tired yet anymore than you are. You're simply taking unfair advantage
of your size, and that will cost you a LOT later when they're older!!
Steve

GI Trekker wrote:

What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
night.

Take her upstairs, put her in bed at a proper time, and tell her in no
uncertain terms to STAY PUT! Then turn out the light. If she comes out of her
room for any other reason than to go to the bathroom, there will be punishment.
---------------
You're nothing but a human ****, aren'tcha, little asshole.
What a stupid immature macho screen name too.
Steve

James and Karen Stewart wrote:

Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
--------------
Then don't do such things if you ARE bright enough to realize that
they are stupid and ignorant. Make sure that everyone gets their
needs met and that you all talk about what you want and how to get
ALL of it. Simply sit down and agree!


When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed NOW
!!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"
"GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE
Thanks for all suggestions
KAren
-----------------------
That's abusive and causes a fracture of the relationship as soon as
she is old enough to question you.
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "toto"
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: discipline


| No, that's not discipline. Punishment and discipline are not
| synonyms.


Actually, they *are* synonyms. ;-) www.m-w.com

Seriously, when bribes and reward charts don't work, reasoning and
pleading have failed, sometimes you just have to find their "sweet
spot" and threaten it. For a social child, you might tell them if they
come out of their room they'll be grounded. For children who love
their TV, they would lose that priviledge. Or it might mean losing
sweets or soda for a while, or missing a special event coming up, or a
playdate. Consider what they love the most at that particular moment
and threaten to yank it if they disobey. Nothing wrong with that.

| Punishment and reward are ways of controlling behavior, but they
have
| unintended consequences in humans that don't actually lend
themselves
| to teaching self-discipline which is what most parents are aiming
for.

I disagree. Until the lessons in self-discipline have caught on,
punishments (and in some cases, rewards) are in order. I don't believe
in rewarding a child for doing what they are expected to do. I do
reward when my DD goes above and beyond, but never for behaving as God
(and society) would expect her to behave. DH and I are also pointing
out to her the natural consequences of bad behavior, as well as the
natural benefits of good behavoir. (Such as ... when children behave
well in public places, it makes for a more peaceful envrionment. When
children misbehave in public, they disturb those around them, make it
difficult to carry on a conversation, break things, dirty up the
place, etc.)

| Both punishment and reward focus on after the fact - that is after
the
| behavior you are trying to control has already happenned at least
| once. You then attempt to modify the behavior for the next time,
but
| you are not addressing the reasons for the behavior and hence you
| keep the locus of control external so that the child is prepared to
| follow orders, but doesn't know *why* he should or what is wrong
about
| the behavior.


Proper punishment would include an explanation of the root of the
problem. For "religious" people this might also include a Bible verse.
It all traces back to good character and living at peace with others.

| When a child makes a mistake, you correct it, but you need to teach
| him why what he did is wrong. Sometimes, it is only because it
| irritates you and the behavior itself is not really wrong.. In the
| case of when a child should go to bed, this is certainly true.
| Children as all humans *will* sleep when they are tired and the
| fact that their sleep times are inconvenient for the adults is not
| *wrong* and should certainly not be punished. You can encourage
| them to have their sleep schedule in line with your needs, but it
| doesn't help to ignore their physical needs by trying to make them
| sleep on *your* schedule because *you* need time to yourself or
| because *you* don't want to deal with them after a certain hour of
the
| day or night.

I agree with the first two sentences of the paragraph above. For the
rest, I have to say again that I disagree. I expect to get flamed for
this, but in the families that we know, the children whose parents
allow them to stay up till all hours ... they are truly horribly
behaved. I believe sleep is SO important to children, and it makes
such a difference in their behavior. Of course, this might just be my
experience. Others might have a totally different experience to share.
But for me, when my daughter stays up late ... she's just crazy and
grumpy, and has a really hard time focusing, listening, and obeying.
I've had other moms say the same thing about their children. Behavior
is improved with adequate sleep. It helps keep them focused.

| Positive discipline takes a proactive approach. You can encourage
| your child to go to bed at a regular time by creating a routine that

| *says* bedtime. You can also insure that he stays in his room and
| plays quietly though you cannot make him sleep. The less reaction
| s/he gets when s/he does come out of the room, the better, btw,
unless
| you intend to reinforce attention-getting behavior.

Or you could make the consequences of leaving their rooms so
unpleasant that they're motivated to obey the rules the following
nights. JMHO! ;-)

Cheers,
Bip

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:53:32 GMT, "Bippy"
wrote:

Seriously, when bribes and reward charts don't work, reasoning and
pleading have failed, sometimes you just have to find their "sweet
spot" and threaten it

Rewards and bribes are not *positive discipline*

They are simply the other end of the popularization of behaviorist
theory and they also don't work


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:53:32 GMT, "Bippy"
wrote:

Actually, they *are* synonyms. ;-) www.m-w.com

Discipline comes from the same latin root as disciple.

It's meaning is to teach.. Punishment and rewards are
in some cases considered part of discipline, but in actuality
they are not effective in inculcating self-control and self-
discipline which is what parents are aiming for.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:17:53 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
wrote:

There are no monsters, nothing in this room will harm you,
goodnight"

???????

No, that belittles her fears.


well, yes and no

It's OK to tell her there are no monsters: that's just a statement of
fact. It doesn't do any good, and DOES belittle her, to insist that she
has to stop being afraid: she IS afraid, and that, too, is just a
statement of fact.

I never did the "monster spray", as (imho) it just gave truth to their
fears: after all, if there were really no monsters, why use monster
spray? I DID talk (and listen) to their fears, and acknowledged that
they were afraid. I left the door open if they wanted it, and the
lights on if they wanted it. (Actually, this became a problem from a
different point of view: with 3 kids in one bedroom, they didn't always
have the same light and door needs and desires . . . but that's a
different post.) I also read books like "Where the Wild Things Are" and
other books about making friends with your fears.

When one of my kids seemed to be taking it over the top -- she had had
some nightmares and was terribly afraid of having more, and told me that
when the room got quiet she started imagining the nightmares she MIGHT
have and her own imagination scared her -- I found a small Buddha statue
and gave it to her. We talked about some of the things the Buddha
taught: one thing he taught is that we can control where our mind goes.
We may not be able to control the things that fly into it, but WE decide
what it is we want to think about. Exercising your ability to do that
-- to control what you spend time thinking about -- is as important as
exercising your body. So we put the statue in her room and I told her
that every time a scary thought entered her mind, she should look at the
statue and remind herself that SHE was in charge of what she thought
about, and turn her mind to something pleasant. For this particular
child -- a strong willed kid and then some -- this worked wonders. I
discovered her packing it away for sleepovers, including youth group
stuff at church, for years!

Favorite Buddhist inspired song: "Though the birds of worry and woe fly
over your head, don't let them build nests in your hair."

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care