Normal 2-year-old? Or Mommy messing up?

Probably a mix of both, I suspect.

DD is 2-1/2, and in general a well-behaved child - but when she is not,
she is completely impossible. Won't sit in the car seat, won't sit
still to have her diaper changed, runs away when it's time to get
dressed, etc.

My approach has been to issue an instruction once - "Get in your
carseat" - and if she does not obey, produce a consequence. This
morning, for example, I took her kitty and her blanket away (and then
picked her up, put her in the car seat, and buckled her in). Of
course, even when I do this, more often than not she thinks it's funny
- she shrieks with laughter, apparently amused at ****ing off Mommy. I
try not to react emotionally, but I have to admit sometimes she drives
me to tears. (And I'm guessing that's part of the game - we know Mommy
will have a meltdown, so let's misbehave until it happens! Free
entertainment!)

She does not tend to giggle like a maniac with DH. He will tell her
once what to do, and if she doesn't do it, he tells her again in a
severe tone. (He doesn't yell, at least not often; but it's definitely
intended to intimidate.) His approach is more likely to get her to
comply, although it doesn't always work; but when it doesn't work she
doesn't laugh. She knows he's mad, and she doesn't like it.

When I complain to DH of my frustration with her, he tells me my tone
is the problem - she doesn't believe I'll follow through. But how can
that be, when I DO follow through?

I am not 100% consistent, certainly, and perhaps that's part of the
problem. I tend to give in on small, non-charged things (yes, okay,
you can take that card off of Mommy's desk after all). Maybe that's
enough to make her know she can push the point - although DH gives in
on little things, too.

Here is what I would LIKE to do: I would like to continue with my
method, stating my expectations clearly (and neutrally) and having
swift and appropriate consequences for disobedience. I would like to
NOT lose my mind when she keeps giggling and being defiant, even after
she's complied with the original instruction. I would like to work at
being more consistent on the little things, even if it means opening
with "yes" instead of "no" more often.

What I DON'T want to do is have to learn how to intimidate (frighten)
my kid to get her to behave. But is that the only way to go in the
midst of the Terrible Twos? (I can tell you, I've been pretty ****ed
off in front of her, and if I don't scare her now I can't imagine what
I could possibly change that would work.)

TIA,

Liz

"MamaLiz" wrote in message
ups.com...
Probably a mix of both, I suspect.

DD is 2-1/2, and in general a well-behaved child - but when she is not,
she is completely impossible. Won't sit in the car seat, won't sit
still to have her diaper changed, runs away when it's time to get
dressed, etc.

My approach has been to issue an instruction once - "Get in your
carseat" - and if she does not obey, produce a consequence. This
morning, for example, I took her kitty and her blanket away (and then
picked her up, put her in the car seat, and buckled her in). Of
course, even when I do this, more often than not she thinks it's funny
- she shrieks with laughter, apparently amused at ****ing off Mommy. I
try not to react emotionally, but I have to admit sometimes she drives
me to tears. (And I'm guessing that's part of the game - we know Mommy
will have a meltdown, so let's misbehave until it happens! Free
entertainment!)

Not only is she a normal 2-y.o., she is a smart one. She knows how to push
your bottons.

She does not tend to giggle like a maniac with DH. He will tell her
once what to do, and if she doesn't do it, he tells her again in a
severe tone. (He doesn't yell, at least not often; but it's definitely
intended to intimidate.) His approach is more likely to get her to
comply, although it doesn't always work; but when it doesn't work she
doesn't laugh. She knows he's mad, and she doesn't like it.

When I complain to DH of my frustration with her, he tells me my tone
is the problem - she doesn't believe I'll follow through. But how can
that be, when I DO follow through?

Your follow thorugh is funny to her.

I am not 100% consistent, certainly, and perhaps that's part of the
problem. I tend to give in on small, non-charged things (yes, okay,
you can take that card off of Mommy's desk after all). Maybe that's
enough to make her know she can push the point - although DH gives in
on little things, too.

Here is what I would LIKE to do: I would like to continue with my
method, stating my expectations clearly (and neutrally) and having
swift and appropriate consequences for disobedience. I would like to
NOT lose my mind when she keeps giggling and being defiant, even after
she's complied with the original instruction. I would like to work at
being more consistent on the little things, even if it means opening
with "yes" instead of "no" more often.

Out of curiousity, why? What does she gain from this? Apparently, the issues
are not major ones.

Life is too short to waste with these little details.


What I DON'T want to do is have to learn how to intimidate (frighten)
my kid to get her to behave. But is that the only way to go in the
midst of the Terrible Twos? (I can tell you, I've been pretty ****ed
off in front of her, and if I don't scare her now I can't imagine what
I could possibly change that would work.)

And I bet she enjoyed the "Mommy is ****ed' show.

Actually, I don't see the problem with intimidating her at times. I mean, so
what? The fact of the matter is that you are her parent, and that there are
some important things she has to do, like buckle up.

Jeff

TIA,

Liz

"MamaLiz" wrote in message
ups.com...
Probably a mix of both, I suspect.

DD is 2-1/2, and in general a well-behaved child - but when she is not,
she is completely impossible. Won't sit in the car seat, won't sit
still to have her diaper changed, runs away when it's time to get
dressed, etc.

DS had trouble with silliness when taking his meds. He jumps around,
laughs, runs away from us, goes limp, whatever he can do to make it
difficult. It just starts there, then DH gets mad, takes something away, DS
gets upset and does something naughty, then DH takes something else away and
it just escalates until everyone is upset.

Maybe you can join me in trying out the SPR mentioned in the other thread.
Today is day 3. I would say we are seeing some success. DS is pausing
without playing tag and wrestling. He is redirecting nicely. He is
listening much better without goofing off. Wow, what a difference. I think
if I wrote a review for the book, they'd think I was being paid. You know,
"I've only tried it for three days and already I've seen success." Sounds
like an informercial. Anyway, if Ericka is reading this, thanks, Ericka.
More updates to come.

Jeff wrote:
Your follow thorugh is funny to her.

Yes, it is. I haven't the faintest idea why,
though, or I'd stop doing whatever it was
that tickled her.

Out of curiousity, why? What does she gain from this? Apparently, the issues
are not major ones.

I guess I'm wondering if being inconsistent
on the small issues keeps her from believing
we will be consistent on the big issues.

Actually, I don't see the problem with intimidating her at times.

Okay, fair enough. The trouble is, I don't
intimidate her (and yes, I have tried). My
husband does, but I don't. I can't make him
handle all the discipline - sometimes she has
a fit of the sillies when it's just the two of us.

Liz

toypup wrote:

Maybe you can join me in trying out the SPR mentioned in the other thread.

I just went back and read some of that. The question of
what to do if the kid is not deterred by the consequences
is a good one for me, since DD doesn't much care about
losing ANYTHING when she's in giggle-mode.

SPR sounds like a sort of in-place time-out. I'll give it
a shot. It's heartening to hear you're having some
success after only 3 days.

Thanks,
Liz

MamaLiz wrote:

When I complain to DH of my frustration with her, he tells me my tone
is the problem - she doesn't believe I'll follow through. But how can
that be, when I DO follow through?

Tone is important. She has to be able to distinguish
when you're serious and when you're not.

I am not 100% consistent, certainly, and perhaps that's part of the
problem. I tend to give in on small, non-charged things (yes, okay,
you can take that card off of Mommy's desk after all). Maybe that's
enough to make her know she can push the point - although DH gives in
on little things, too.

But maybe he has his tone of voice (or whatever)
giving another clue. Remember--*you* may perceive a
significant difference between "important" things and
"not important" things, but she has no experience to
make those judgments. If you want her to understand,
you have to give her a clue what's important and what
isn't.

Here is what I would LIKE to do: I would like to continue with my
method, stating my expectations clearly (and neutrally) and having
swift and appropriate consequences for disobedience. I would like to
NOT lose my mind when she keeps giggling and being defiant, even after
she's complied with the original instruction. I would like to work at
being more consistent on the little things, even if it means opening
with "yes" instead of "no" more often.

What I DON'T want to do is have to learn how to intimidate (frighten)
my kid to get her to behave. But is that the only way to go in the
midst of the Terrible Twos? (I can tell you, I've been pretty ****ed
off in front of her, and if I don't scare her now I can't imagine what
I could possibly change that would work.)

Apropos of the other thread, I'd recommend
this book: http://tinyurl.com/y487f5 I think it's
quite successful. You don't have to be intimidating.
You just have to make it clear to her when you have
a requirement, and you have to follow through *every*
time you give that signal, whatever it is. The book
gives a technique for following through that should
short circuit the escalating consequences and attitude.

Best wishes,
Ericka

with young kids, what we want them to do doesn't seem exciting or fun, it's
also can seem illogical or boring to them, if we expect them to lie down for
a diaper change, with no fun, no praise, etc. then we are kidding ourselves,
I think we have to praise and reward the good stuff, even though to us, it's
just normal stuff, so lieing down for a diaper change and being still
becomes something that makes mummy really happy and make mummy play with you
and tickle your tummy and so on, but as soon as they try to move away you
become boring and start the kind of routines others have described. Recently
with my 3.5yr old, it's been getting in the car seat that has been the
issue, I find that if I remember to praise him and tell him how happy I am
the times he does it without a fuss, the much less likely he is to mess
about and for me to have start the strict routine, but if I forget and just
treat him getting in his car seat nicely as nothing special, then he's more
likely to mess around next time. Of course ideally, we wouldn't have to be
doing all this special stuff surrounding these things that are just normal
behaviour, but if we ask ourselves honestly, even adults want praise and
attention.

Cheers

Anne

Anne Rogers wrote:
with young kids, what we want them to do doesn't seem exciting or fun, it's
also can seem illogical or boring to them, if we expect them to lie down for
a diaper change, with no fun, no praise, etc. then we are kidding ourselves,

Amen to that! Put yourself in their little sneakers.

That doesn't mean you kowtow to their whims or bribe them; it means you
remember not to parent on autopilot.

I think we have to praise and reward the good stuff, even though to us, it's
just normal stuff, so lieing down for a diaper change and being still
becomes something that makes mummy really happy and make mummy play with you
and tickle your tummy and so on, but as soon as they try to move away you
become boring and start the kind of routines others have described. Recently
with my 3.5yr old, it's been getting in the car seat that has been the
issue, I find that if I remember to praise him and tell him how happy I am
the times he does it without a fuss, the much less likely he is to mess
about and for me to have start the strict routine, but if I forget and just
treat him getting in his car seat nicely as nothing special, then he's more
likely to mess around next time. Of course ideally, we wouldn't have to be
doing all this special stuff surrounding these things that are just normal
behaviour, but if we ask ourselves honestly, even adults want praise and
attention.

I often found I didn't even have to praise if I gave the attention. 2s
and 3s are still highly distractable. Engaging them in conversation,
games, riddles, tickles or whatever keeps them from focusing on the
boring (and from trying to liven things up with misbehavior).
Often, in nursery school or Sunday school, I'd go to change a diaper
and a kid would (understandably!) balk. But start chatting with him
about the Halloween costume, or his upcoming birthday, or favorite
Disney movie or whatever, and he's no longer set to scream and flop --
he wants to know what you're going to say next, and to respond to THAT
rather than what you're doing.

Likewise, I tried to present our "to-do" items in ways that spotlights
the advantages to the kid if he cooperates -- or at least got him
giggling. "We need to leave the park -- NOW" might become "Bet you
can't beat me to the car!" or (if I wanted to pick up groceries) --
"Hey, look, we've got just enough time before lunch to stop at the
store -- want to get that strawberry yogurt?" "I need to tie your
shoes" might be "Oops -- let's get rid of those silly worms that are
following you around and trying to trip you up."

As Anne notes, it does require a bit of creativity and thought. I
thought having a more cooperative kid well worth the extra effort.

Lori G.
Milwaukee, WI

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

Maybe you can join me in trying out the SPR mentioned in the other thread.
Today is day 3. I would say we are seeing some success. DS is pausing
without playing tag and wrestling. He is redirecting nicely. He is
listening much better without goofing off. Wow, what a difference.

Amazing! GLad you are having such success with it!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

In article . com,
"MamaLiz" wrote:

DD is 2-1/2, and in general a well-behaved child - but when she is not,
she is completely impossible. Won't sit in the car seat, won't sit
still to have her diaper changed, runs away when it's time to get
dressed, etc.

My approach has been to issue an instruction once - "Get in your
carseat" - and if she does not obey, produce a consequence.

I don't know that I'd go to what appear to be unrelated punishments (it's not
a consequence, it's a punishment, btw) on issues like these (for example, I
don't know what the connection is between kitty, blanket and carseat). The
choice on these things is that you either do what Mummy says or you do what
Mummy says. That is: she can climb into the car seat or she can be put into
the car seat, but she IS going into that seat. She can lie down to be changed
or she can be put down.

I don't know where you change her, but I change my 18mo DS2 on the floor, with
a leg over him to stop him from getting away (That is, the crook of my left
knee is on his chest -- I can pin him down if necessary, I use my left hand to
hold his legs, and my right hand to deal with the bad news). Note that a
certain amount of chasings is natural for a busy toddler, and allow for it;
it's part of the fun of having them. The only problem is that they want to
play chasings even when you are running late or when the nappy has leaked!!!

I am not 100% consistent, certainly, and perhaps that's part of the
problem. I tend to give in on small, non-charged things (yes, okay,
you can take that card off of Mommy's desk after all). Maybe that's
enough to make her know she can push the point - although DH gives in
on little things, too.

If being less than 100% consistent truly means complete disciplinary failure,
we're all in trouble! What I suspect you might need to do is look at what you
are saying "No" to. Is it *really* bad if she takes the card off your desk?
And if you do refuse to let her play with it, what is there for her to do
instead?

Toddler discipline is a matter of prevention first (ie, put away anything you
don't want them to play with; make sure they are well-fed and well-rested and
have a mix of vigorous and quiet activity in their day), redirection second.
Their attention spans are not very long. Remove the crystal vase from the
child's hands and give her a toy. Take her away from the stove and give her
some cheese to eat. Remember that they don't really get the whole cause and
effect thing very well yet, and that they need physical redirection as well as
verbal.

I would like to
NOT lose my mind when she keeps giggling and being defiant, even after
she's complied with the original instruction.

I don't understand -- how can she be defiant if she has complied with your
request? Be careful you aren't attributing "attitude" when she isn't
developmentally capable of it.

The book I'd recommend is Robin Barker's The Mighty Toddler. It has a great
section telling you how toddlers think. I felt much more confident in dealing
with my elder boy after I had read it.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue