Troubled neighborhood *family*

On Sep 26, 3:58?pm, Beliavsky wrote:
On Sep 26, 10:24 am, Chris wrote:

It is funny you mention suicide. I frequently tell my children what
name-calling and hurtful words and actions can do to a person, albeit
without graphic details. I frequently tell them that all it takes is a
smile to sometimes change the life of someone in need. I've already
shared that I tell them that name-calling, even out of pure
frustration, is never acceptable - that it is always wrong and always
very hurtful - and by doing so, you have stooped to a very low level.
It doesn't mean that it will never happen though.

I understand your thinking, but it may be too idealistic. Consider
something a little stronger. If some kid, unprovoked, hits or shoves
your son, is it always wrong for him to hit or shove back? On the
verbal level, if someone insults you and you have a strong rejoinder,
that can shut them up.

LOL. I see what you are saying. However, I have told my children that
they are never to not defend themselves and rather are permitted to
when hit, but words are just words and do not call for a retort,
especially with this child; his anger and frustration is what sets him
off.

On Sep 26, 4:05?pm, Anne Rogers wrote:
Chris wrote:
Hey, I don't have a whole lot of time to be messing around online. I
breeze in, breeze through, and breeze out. I'm actually very fast at
it. That's okay if someone can't interpret sentence after sentence,
regardless of paragraphs. No big deal. Like I mentioned earlier, I was
interested in getting some thoughts on the issue, but then as I kept
going, I realized I may not be able to adequately convey a three-year
history as quickly as I'd like - got to rambling, admittedly.

I'd put money on you spending less time responding and clearing things
up if the original had been well expressed.

Anne

I wouldn't take that bet! lol.

On Sep 26, 9:44 am, Chris wrote:
If you don't like my posts, then please ignore them.


I see a significant issue in problems your children are having. At
least one of their parents is an asshole.

In article . com,
Chris wrote:

I didn't realize geography would be such an issue. I live in a
subdivision. I live on a street on the border of it.
snipped

Remember that I live in a country without woods or poison ivy, and where we
don't call it a subdivision either!!

2. If your kids are playing *off* your property, as implied in your OP,
they can refuse to play with Disturbed Kid. It is, however, very difficult
to get rid of a persistent tagger-along. If they truly want to get rid of DK,
the easiest way to do it is for all the kids to head to a place with a
gate/door, eg, your house, for indoor play or refreshments, until DK goes
away. If you refuse them that option, expect matters to escalate as they
have previously.

Nothing has escalated.

I said "as they have previously" -- as in when the kids have told DK to get
lost, and he gets mad.

I simply have reached a point where I no longer
wish to deal with it. I simply was interested in seeing the varying
view points on the issue.

You will be continuing to deal with it unless you provide the kids with a
refuge.

During our conversation
the other day, she said "Well, I have talked to Brian (the troubled
child) about spitting and I have told him that we call the police on
people when they spit due to saliva being a bodily fluid potentially
carrying diseases such as hepatitis." I smiled and nodded my head, all
the while seeing further proof that her method of raising her children
is by calling the police on them. lol.

The advantage of her being such a close neighbour is that every time you see
her, you will be able to enjoy that feeling of superiority again.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Remember that I live in a country without woods or poison ivy, and where we
don't call it a subdivision either!!

LOL.

I said "as they have previously" -- as in when the kids have told DK to get
lost, and he gets mad.

That makes sense to me now.


You will be continuing to deal with it unless you provide the kids with a
refuge.

Yeah, I don't predict that I'll have anything to deal with if they are
in the backyard and he is forbidden to enter the back yard.

The advantage of her being such a close neighbour is that every time you see
her, you will be able to enjoy that feeling of superiority again.

I have no idea what was coming down the pike today but I heard
screaming and there was the troubled child walking his dog in our
direction and his mother in front of him with her finger in his face
screaming bloody murder at the kid with his sister screaming and her
arms in the air. They all turned and went back to their house, so who
knows. One of the neighborhood girls that was walking her dog was in
our driveway, along with 4 other neighborhood kids and mine, saying
that he had let his dog out to attack her dog while they were walking,
and that she ran here first, but since I didn't see anything or know
anything about it, and it wasn't my child, I let that in one ear and
out the other pretty much and figured their fighting like that down
there must have something to do with all of that.

On Sep 26, 3:05 pm, Chris wrote:

at what point is it acceptable to be *the*
one to ultimately make the call and possibly hurt this troubled
child's feelings -- for things that I don't really think he is 100% to
blame for -- by stating flat out that he should no longer come around
here.

Well it depends what you mean by "come around here". I agree that you
don't have to let him into your yard, but you can't keep him out of
public spaces.

I'm a bit unclear about the scope of the problem - I think I have the
layout of yards and woods, but I'm not clear about whether the kids
are mostly playing in each other's yards or in public shared space.
And I'm not clear about whether the boundaries are clearly marked or
fenced, or whether the kids drift in and out.

I don't care if he had a legitimate "eat my fist"
condition resulting in him wanting to punch everyone else in the face
- that is dangerous and one accommodation I am unwilling to make and
one that I am unwilling to make my children deal with.

I don't see that you have to insist that your children play with this
boy. But then you have the problem that the more obviously they reject
him, the more angry and spiteful he is likely to get against them and
the other local kids. So you have to think of ways to separate the
kids that are not so obvious to him. And ways that protect your kids
and their belongings.

Ideally his mother would either watch him more closely herself, but it
seems she wont do that and I don't see how you could force her. It
makes little practical difference how much of his behaviour is down to
his condition and how much is down to poor parenting, since you're not
in a position to change either of them.

FWIW I have some experience of this from "the other side" - my son has
a diagnosed condition that makes him unpredictable and dangerous to
other kids on occasion (much less often these days, thank goodness!).
Some children with the same condition are totally non-aggressive,
others are worse than my son; and some of my son's aggression has been
calculated, so I'm afraid even calculated spite can be associated with
a diagnosed condition. We parents all supervise our kids closely and
find ways to arrange supervision when we can't do it ourselves (though
that can be very difficult to do) but that's our choice - AFAIK it
would be difficult/impossible for anyone to force us to do that.

Anyway... When this boy feels hurt and rejected he lashes out. So you
probably don't want to make the children responsible for managing or
policing his behaviour because that puts them at risk. Even them
threatening to "tell" on him could result in a serious lashout. And
you don't want to make this boy feel singled out if you can avoid it,
because then he seens to get vengeful.

If the kids are playing out in the woods or the streets which are
shared space, I don't see how you could cut one kid out. Maybe you
could tell the other kids that if the other boy causes trouble they
can play in your yard and the other boy can't, but I don't think you
can send him home if he's not on your property(?)

If the social norm is that all the kids in the area play unsupervised
in anyone's yard and anyone can join in, then you still have a big
problem making an exception out of one kid. No matter how richly he
deserves it. Maybe you could change the rules so the kids have to ask
permission to play in one or two yards and there's maybe a bit more
supervision. Then the awkward kid either wouldn't be invited over at
all, or would only be invited when you can supervise. Though if the
yard boundaries are not clear I can imagine this kid hanging around in
the woods behind the yard and bothering the other kids, and trouble
happening that way; so you'd need to tell the kids to keep away from
the boundaries.

Having said that, I don't think the mother is completely hopeless.
She's aware that her children's behaviour is unacceptable. She's told
you that she's struggling. Do bear in mind is that she is probably
screaming at her son partly because she imagines that's what everyone
expects her to do whenever he does something wrong. So you might find
that a bit of sympathy (no matter how hypocritical!) will get you
further with her. (Though don't overdo it - you don't want to become
her support.) And if you can sweeten the pill a bit by saying that you
don't like having *any* of the kids running wild, and that you know
her son needs a bit more structure and you'd like to have him over
when you can supervise, then they might feel less negative about it.

and I and telling me waaaay more information than I cared to hear - she is
allowed to swear, what she does in anger, that she is told it is okay
to do these things when angry, etc.

A word to the wise - the girl probably made that up. Well, maybe not
what she does, but what she's allowed. My son shows remarkable
imagination when it comes to telling other people what he is allowed
to do at home ;-)

The mother at one time last year decided to
*tell me how it is* when I had a garage sale the same day of the
neighborhood garage sale that I didn't sign up or pay to participate
in,

If you accidentally had your garage sale on the same day as the
neighbourhood one (for whatever reasons!), then the best move would
have been to apologise ("oh silly me! I quite lost track of when the
neighbourhood sale was on! I'm so busy I just can't think straight
sometimes!") and pay a contribution to the neighbourhood one. Even if
there was no real reason to do that and no-one else really cared, it
would have set up some goodwill with this awkward neighbour, which
could be helpful in managing your problem with her son.

Hope there's a way you can sort this out, I know it's not easy!

All the best,

Cailleach

On Sep 26, 8:20?am, Banty wrote:





In article . com, Chris says...

Chris's
problem is apparently that she doesn't want to tell her son that he
can either play nicely with all the neighborhood children or he can
come in and play by himself.

Well Rosalie, you are a little off, as I don't have a problem. I
probably should not have tried to cram that into a short post when I
was short on time. My son, nor 2 of the other neighborhood boys are
having difficulties playing with the problem child. Rather, it is the
other way around. My son and the 2 other neighborood boys do not WANT
to play with this child. At this point, after a few years of it
actually, I have to throw up my hands and actually say that I can't
blame them. They have all tried, and sometimes successfully so, to
include him in their activities. The issue now is that I'm wondering
just when is it enough to stop coercing, lecturing on the importance
of understanding and compassion, etc. in order to see to it a troubled
child, who can get physical, if not against the person, then against
their belongings, into playing with said child? I feel bad that this
child will inevitably feel left out, but I honestly feel at this point
he only has his own behavior and actions to blame for it. He spits,
hits, destroys, swears, etc. just as his older sister did. The kids
want to have fun, not cater to a needy child who throws fits or gets
physical every time he doesn't get his way, and I don't blame them. At
any rate, I have decided that the child will get one verbal warning
that he must be able to play nicely, and just as I did the other day,
when a problem arises, as it inevitably will, I will tell them they
must separate, and THAT happens to mean the troubled child needs to go
home.

One teaches many things to their kids - self-respect as well as compassion.

You and I, at least like to think, we have compassion. But do you invite over
for a barbeque at your house, the most irritating person at your workplace? Out
of compassion? Of course not. I sure as heck don't.

Kids, like adults, have social preferences, and these need to be respected. And
their need not to have their stuff broken and their fun quashed by their
behavior of this kid needs to be respected, too. Indeed, you need to teach them
not to put up with this stuff and to respect themselves. You can teach them to
be *civil* to everyone, but they do not have to associate with everyone as
friends.

Compassion would go as far as, say, an awkward child, who is basically a good
kid, being a good playmate even if some of other kids tease him. This isn't the
case here.

There's only a point to which one can go to help a kid like this. You simply
don't have the strings to pull, or the training, or the time and energy to
devote (which would pretty much be on the lines of becoming a foster parent) to
do it.

Banty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's the feeling I'm starting to get about it. There are children in
this neighborhood with varying degrees of disabilities, from Down
syndrome to autistic children who have frequent overloads/meltdowns,
but my kids go out of their way to help them out and include them the
best they can. Of course, these other children don't purposely destroy
their belongings or hit them or spit at them.

I initially felt bad for this one boy who obviously has "issues", but
I am not entirely convinced they are due to "conditions" rather than
passive parenting. I don't care if he had a legitimate "eat my fist"
condition resulting in him wanting to punch everyone else in the face
- that is dangerous and one accommodation I am unwilling to make and
one that I am unwilling to make my children deal with.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In article om, Cailleach
says...



If the social norm is that all the kids in the area play unsupervised
in anyone's yard and anyone can join in, then you still have a big
problem making an exception out of one kid. No matter how richly he
deserves it. Maybe you could change the rules so the kids have to ask
permission to play in one or two yards and there's maybe a bit more
supervision. Then the awkward kid either wouldn't be invited over at
all, or would only be invited when you can supervise. Though if the
yard boundaries are not clear I can imagine this kid hanging around in
the woods behind the yard and bothering the other kids, and trouble
happening that way; so you'd need to tell the kids to keep away from
the boundaries.

If it's anything like my circle street with houses backing up to woods (sounds
like the same but even tighter - a cul de sac backing up to woods), you're
right. Kids play in the street and around each others' yards. Lotsa nice
freedom, but it sure can be ruined by one really bad element :-(


Having said that, I don't think the mother is completely hopeless.
She's aware that her children's behaviour is unacceptable. She's told
you that she's struggling. Do bear in mind is that she is probably
screaming at her son partly because she imagines that's what everyone
expects her to do whenever he does something wrong. So you might find
that a bit of sympathy (no matter how hypocritical!) will get you
further with her. (Though don't overdo it - you don't want to become
her support.) And if you can sweeten the pill a bit by saying that you
don't like having *any* of the kids running wild, and that you know
her son needs a bit more structure and you'd like to have him over
when you can supervise, then they might feel less negative about it.

I agree with this. Maybe a little more go-with-the-flow and less judgementalism
toward the Mom would work. (Mind, Chris, she might indeed be a lost cause as
you say, but think on it, try it out - people can surprise one, like I said
before...) I took just that kind of stance with my immediate neighbor with
three boys, two close to my son's age, and it largely worked. She isn't the
most together person you ever met by a long shot, but she had some horse sense
and resiliency which belied her other problems sometimes. With a little
sympathy she could pull herself together enough to address things effectively.
I took a "my kid's not perfect your kid's not perfect what are we gonna do with
these boys??" stance with her. Even if her boys are pretty wild.



and I and telling me waaaay more information than I cared to hear - she is
allowed to swear, what she does in anger, that she is told it is okay
to do these things when angry, etc.

A word to the wise - the girl probably made that up. Well, maybe not
what she does, but what she's allowed. My son shows remarkable
imagination when it comes to telling other people what he is allowed
to do at home ;-)

Yep.


The mother at one time last year decided to
*tell me how it is* when I had a garage sale the same day of the
neighborhood garage sale that I didn't sign up or pay to participate
in,

If you accidentally had your garage sale on the same day as the
neighbourhood one (for whatever reasons!), then the best move would
have been to apologise ("oh silly me! I quite lost track of when the
neighbourhood sale was on! I'm so busy I just can't think straight
sometimes!") and pay a contribution to the neighbourhood one. Even if
there was no real reason to do that and no-one else really cared, it
would have set up some goodwill with this awkward neighbour, which
could be helpful in managing your problem with her son.

Yeah, really. It isn't always about who's *right*. The accidental coincidence
sure didn't look right - bend a bit to make it better.

It does suck to have to fix anothers' problem with big changes to one's own
life. But that's what mature people do sometimes.

Banty

"Chris" wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay, so I'm interested in getting some feedback on this one!

I think you simply tell the boy he has to ask to play in your yard. If you
feel you can sit out and watch him then great and if you can't say not
today. If he is still in your yard when you look out, then go out and tell
him he needs to go home. If the boy doesn't knock and ask, then tell your
son to come and get you.

If they are all playing out in the street or an empty lot or something then
your son will have to make the decision to stay there with him and be civil
or come home. The only exception to that, IMO, is if the kid was being
vandalous or hitting people (beyond rough housing). Then I would go out and
tell him to go home and then go in and call the mom to tell her what
happened.

I think you are making it way more difficult then it needs to be.
--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06