Please help experienced parents...Need Discipline strategy for 10yr and 13yr olds

Hey group,

In advance a big thank you to those who would attempt to tackle
this monstrosity that I ask of you. Here's my case...

I have lived for 2 years in my roommates house with her and her five
children. She is a single Mom (34 years of age) who has through
different marriages had her children who are all very unique and
challenging in their own ways. I am not a father to any of them, yet
I have helped her raise them during the time I have lived here. When
I first moved in, the children were a bit younger and would listen to
their Mom and myself. As time has gone on, the oldest two boys have
become a large challenge for their Mother, their older sister (15
years old) and myself.

The two boys's REAL father are the same father, unfortunately he
refuses to be on speaking terms with their mother, as he has sustained
a lifetime vendetta against her, yet refuses to discuss how it could
be resolved. He is a very strong and proud man, yet not a man to mix
emotions and love into his children's lives. The respect him greatly,
but he is someone I feel that they fear to a degree. The proof of
this is that their older sister (not biologically his child, but
raised from an infant as his own) used to live with their father, and
after a long fiasco with head lice and the girl being checked out a
cleared by a school nurse as being free of the mean lice, the father
was extremely angry that the girl had taken her mothers side while her
and her mother were trying to explain that the nurse was sufficient,
and a doctors appointment would not be needed (the father had
scheduled the appointment without the mothers approval). I could go
into a long diatribe about the father, but I could really honestly say
that he is a very psychologically abusive and manipulative man, whom I
hope someday can find peace and reconcilliation with the mother. But,
for discipline, the mother cannot find any assistance from the father.

The troubles began when the older boy, Josh was always hard on his
younger brother Aaron. As time went by, Aaron grew to be the same
size as Josh, even bigger, but Josh had taught Aaron to fear him
through intimidation and the two would constantly be at odds ends.
This wouldn't mean they would get along too, but for everyone else in
the entire house they would be loud and unruly and the mother's
inaction to put a stop to it early silently gave consent to the
behavior to continue like a slow hurricane gaining force. The boys
now, make life hellish for the older sister (who watches them when
noone is around) and for myself at times, though they are constantly
threatened to be grounded off of playstation and the computers (they
love the internet and games). However, they don't even seem to care,
partly I think because their mother hardly in the past has enforced
her protocols on them. Being as busy as she is with her other
children, especially the younger 8 year old and 5 year old, while
working a graveyard shift job, she tries hard to give her children a
good quality of life. It was her birthday yesterday, and the boys
were just as rude and arrogant as always, but in addition the older
boy wouldn't help out with the house cleaning, because his mother had
told him he might be able to go to the skate park if he cleaned (he
had already gone with me earlier in that morning for over an hour) but
then she said that he wouldn't be able to go (they were all going to
the skating rink later that evening anyways) so he decided that he
wouldn't help out because of that. Their mother used to spank them
alot when they were younger, and she gave up only recently the last
year because they are getting too big to spank. She also has used
anger and yelling alot in the past to the point where the boys are
immune to her verbal reprimants. She has used it all up, and their
behavior worsens I think to show their mother that they are able to
have fun on their own terms, even if it disrupts the entire house
constantly because their mother's passive action, or verbal reprimants
mean nothing to them. In addition, the boys of turned to lying or
telling half truths, because the mother tries to referee who is right
and wrong with all the outbreaks of fighting that occur. The mother
grew up in a home which was physcially abusive and verbally abusive to
an extreme, so for her part I believe she is doing very well. I have
no hesitations that she taught her children their behavior when her
anger was short tempered and furious in its dealings with all that
didn't toe the line. Now she is suffering the ramifications of those
many years of their raising and they are starting to bite her (and
myself, and the older sister) in the ass. I am increasingly alarmed
at their non-chalant like manner that they take their "talking" to's.
They simply do not care, and they will do things their own way,
regardless of anyone else who shares the room or personal space with
them. I am young (27 years of age) and have no children, but I don't
want to see my roommate fight endless battles with these coming of age
youth, and I do not know what to do for her. I just want to escape
from her and her children, yet I know that if there is any way to help
them I would do it. We've had awesome memories doing many fun things
together, yet it doesn't seem to add up to much when they they have no
respect for the others of the house. Please, I am asking anyone out
there for help who may have an idea! Thank you for your imputs!

Tough situation: Mom is overworked, overwrought and (though trying
hard), simply unable to provide all that is needed for such a large
family by herself. Sounds like these boys are on the verge of really
going wrong, emotionally and socially.

At this age boys really need their father to step in and take a more
active role in parenting them, especially if he's the only one they
seem to respect. I would encourage that if I were in your situation -
whether the man is perfect or not, he's their dad and that's what
counts (unless he is physically abusive, of course).

It's nice of you to be so concerned and interested in helping out, but
as the "roommate" (I assume you are not the mother's boyfriend?) I
don't think there's a lot more you can do - other than be supportive
and patient, which it sounds like you are, and be a friend to them.

Karen


On 19 Feb 2004 23:20:22 -0800, (TommyK) wrote:

Hey group,

In advance a big thank you to those who would attempt to tackle
this monstrosity that I ask of you. Here's my case...

I have lived for 2 years in my roommates house with her and her five
children. She is a single Mom (34 years of age) who has through
different marriages had her children who are all very unique and
challenging in their own ways. I am not a father to any of them, yet
I have helped her raise them during the time I have lived here. When
I first moved in, the children were a bit younger and would listen to
their Mom and myself. As time has gone on, the oldest two boys have
become a large challenge for their Mother, their older sister (15
years old) and myself.

The two boys's REAL father are the same father, unfortunately he
refuses to be on speaking terms with their mother, as he has sustained
a lifetime vendetta against her, yet refuses to discuss how it could
be resolved. He is a very strong and proud man, yet not a man to mix
emotions and love into his children's lives. The respect him greatly,
but he is someone I feel that they fear to a degree. The proof of
this is that their older sister (not biologically his child, but
raised from an infant as his own) used to live with their father, and
after a long fiasco with head lice and the girl being checked out a
cleared by a school nurse as being free of the mean lice, the father
was extremely angry that the girl had taken her mothers side while her
and her mother were trying to explain that the nurse was sufficient,
and a doctors appointment would not be needed (the father had
scheduled the appointment without the mothers approval). I could go
into a long diatribe about the father, but I could really honestly say
that he is a very psychologically abusive and manipulative man, whom I
hope someday can find peace and reconcilliation with the mother. But,
for discipline, the mother cannot find any assistance from the father.

The troubles began when the older boy, Josh was always hard on his
younger brother Aaron. As time went by, Aaron grew to be the same
size as Josh, even bigger, but Josh had taught Aaron to fear him
through intimidation and the two would constantly be at odds ends.
This wouldn't mean they would get along too, but for everyone else in
the entire house they would be loud and unruly and the mother's
inaction to put a stop to it early silently gave consent to the
behavior to continue like a slow hurricane gaining force. The boys
now, make life hellish for the older sister (who watches them when
noone is around) and for myself at times, though they are constantly
threatened to be grounded off of playstation and the computers (they
love the internet and games). However, they don't even seem to care,
partly I think because their mother hardly in the past has enforced
her protocols on them. Being as busy as she is with her other
children, especially the younger 8 year old and 5 year old, while
working a graveyard shift job, she tries hard to give her children a
good quality of life. It was her birthday yesterday, and the boys
were just as rude and arrogant as always, but in addition the older
boy wouldn't help out with the house cleaning, because his mother had
told him he might be able to go to the skate park if he cleaned (he
had already gone with me earlier in that morning for over an hour) but
then she said that he wouldn't be able to go (they were all going to
the skating rink later that evening anyways) so he decided that he
wouldn't help out because of that. Their mother used to spank them
alot when they were younger, and she gave up only recently the last
year because they are getting too big to spank. She also has used
anger and yelling alot in the past to the point where the boys are
immune to her verbal reprimants. She has used it all up, and their
behavior worsens I think to show their mother that they are able to
have fun on their own terms, even if it disrupts the entire house
constantly because their mother's passive action, or verbal reprimants
mean nothing to them. In addition, the boys of turned to lying or
telling half truths, because the mother tries to referee who is right
and wrong with all the outbreaks of fighting that occur. The mother
grew up in a home which was physcially abusive and verbally abusive to
an extreme, so for her part I believe she is doing very well. I have
no hesitations that she taught her children their behavior when her
anger was short tempered and furious in its dealings with all that
didn't toe the line. Now she is suffering the ramifications of those
many years of their raising and they are starting to bite her (and
myself, and the older sister) in the ass. I am increasingly alarmed
at their non-chalant like manner that they take their "talking" to's.
They simply do not care, and they will do things their own way,
regardless of anyone else who shares the room or personal space with
them. I am young (27 years of age) and have no children, but I don't
want to see my roommate fight endless battles with these coming of age
youth, and I do not know what to do for her. I just want to escape
from her and her children, yet I know that if there is any way to help
them I would do it. We've had awesome memories doing many fun things
together, yet it doesn't seem to add up to much when they they have no
respect for the others of the house. Please, I am asking anyone out
there for help who may have an idea! Thank you for your imputs!

--
The Orange Cat: Calendar, advice & tips for busy families in the San Gabriel Valley
www.theorangecat.org

On 19 Feb 2004 23:20:22 -0800, (TommyK) wrote:

We've had awesome memories doing many fun things
together, yet it doesn't seem to add up to much when they they have no
respect for the others of the house. Please, I am asking anyone out
there for help who may have an idea! Thank you for your imputs!

All of the story shows exactly why *punishment* does not work at all.

At any rate, if you want change, you need to begin with positive
discipline. No yelling, spanking, grounding, etc. will actually
help.

I suggest reading Positive Discipline for Teenagers by Jane Nelsen
and Lynn Lott and also How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen
So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. The second
book will help change how she deals with all the children so that the
younger ones don't follow in the footsteps of the older children.

Changing this attitude is never easy. OTOH, unless it is changed, it
is unlikely that the children will change at all.

Begin by concentrating on the positive things the boys do. No matter
how difficult it is, find something good to say about them every day.
Don't *praise,* notice. Acknowledge it when they do something nice
or good or positive. For example, if one of them cleans up without
being nagged, say *I see you cleaned up the pieces of the game.*
Let them make the judgement about whether this was a good thing
rather than saying *You were good to clean up.* It's important to
find good things about all kids, but this is especially true when they
are driving you nuts with misbehavior that you hate.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Thank you both for your added wisdom. I am positive about the future,
and I will go out *immediately* and get those books as well!! I found
a book at Goodwill for a quarter called ...how to get your kids to
mind so you don't loose yours. In my opinion, because the Mother was
raised in an abusive home, she found out only about a half/year ago
that her discipline style was all wrong. And I believe to some extent
she is reaping what she sowed, then she blames herself and gets all
depressed about it which futher exaccerbates the problem. But, I
think those books would be great. I saw the ex-husband again and I
even wished him a good day, to which he mimicked me back using a child
like voice. Ho-boy! Am I glad that I DIDN'T marry that man and have
children with him!

Thanks again for all of your help! I will post again if I can in the
future with how all is going.