A thank you to Greegor (and most of the group)

I wanted to say thank to Greegor, this is a bit long but I need to vent, so
thanks to everyone else for allowing me to do so.



I am relatively new to this newsgroup and I must admit it is not exactly
what I expected. I joined because I am a father that believes that
spanking, when used properly, is a loving and effective form of discipline.
I thought this would be a newsgroup where I could exchange experiences,
opinions and advice with other parents that share my point of view.



However that is not exactly what I have found here. While it seems to be a
good newsgroup for the most part, some people seem to think that this is a
place to attack parents and put us on the defensive.



There are two individuals in particular, Kane Pohaku and Lavonne Carlson,
that frequently attack just about everyone that posts here. They are not
willing to discuss or debate anything. They are so convinced that their
opinion is right that anyone that disagrees with them must therefore have
the wrong opinion. If you spank your children you are a horrible person and
an abusive parent, there is no other answer, that is their logic.



There is no such thing as a right or a wrong opinion; it's your opinion,
your personal point of view. To discuss means that both parties share their
opinion and are willing to listen to the other one. Neither of these people
are open to anything however.



And when they run out of logical points to make they refuse to accept
defeat, resorting instead to adolescent insults (such as Kane stating that I
get sexually aroused by spanking my daughter, which is false), baseless
accusations (that I am scarring my children for life, this is absurd, a
large percentage of the population were spanked as a child, myself included,
and there are no long term effects) or even fabricating stories.



If you disagree with their opinion you must be either "selfish or to stupid
to understand" (Kane's own words). Lavonne even went so far as to accuse me
of not being a real parent. I disagree with her narrow-minded point of
view; therefore my children must be imaginary? Well, Lavonne dear, I can
assure you that my children are very real. I have an 8 and a 5-year-old
daughter and a 2-year-old son. I have and will continue to spank all three
of them as I feel it is necessary. And, here is a shocker for you; I don't
need your permission or even your approval. And do not "fear for my
children" (her words, not mine), they are not abused. All three of them
and healthy and thriving, the 8 yo gets straight As in school and the 5yo is
also doing very well, you don't get grades so much in Kindergarten but she
received a rating of "Proficient" or "Advanced Proficient" in all areas.



Which brings me to the point of this posting. At first I tried to discuss
these things and defend my position. Greegor pointed out that I am wasting
my time trying to defend myself against anyone so narrow-minded and obtuse.
I am a father that spanks my children and I make no apologies for that. If
you disagree with me that is your prerogative. I am more than willing to
discuss this with other parents even if you disagree with me. We can agree
to disagree, and you can disagree without being disagreeable. I will not
attack you or question your parenting skills if you choose not to spank your
children.



I am more than willing to give or receive suggestions or advice to other
parents as long as they are not presented in the form of an attack. I will
no longer defend myself or attempt to justify anything because I haven't
done anything wrong. Spanking is perfectly legal. If you wish to have a
discussion that is fine, if all you are going to do is attack me then we
have nothing to say to each other.

Jirimi J wrote:
I wanted to say thank to Greegor, this is a bit long but I need to vent, so
thanks to everyone else for allowing me to do so.



I am relatively new to this newsgroup and I must admit it is not exactly
what I expected. I joined because I am a father that believes that
spanking, when used properly, is a loving and effective form of discipline.
I thought this would be a newsgroup where I could exchange experiences,
opinions and advice with other parents that share my point of view.

That is not what you opened with, nor what you proceeded with.

You stepped right up and began defending your right to spank.

You obviosly were looking for a fight. Stop the lies.

However that is not exactly what I have found here. While it seems to be a
good newsgroup for the most part, some people seem to think that this is a
place to attack parents and put us on the defensive.

No, it's a place to attack the outmoded sick practice of hitting
children and claiming it's done out of love.

Do you love your wife? Do you spank your wife out of love?

There are two individuals in particular, Kane Pohaku and Lavonne Carlson,

Yes, there are.

that frequently attack just about everyone that posts here.

Not unless they present as you do, as defensive, rather than as wanting
to debate.

What is a fact here is that the practice of spanking has been exposed
for years as what it really is, a mark of failure to parent. It is
undefensible by logical, reasoned argument based on fact.

Nor did YOU try to defend it with anything other than you end this
diatribe with....yet again stating your RIGHT to hit your children.

They are not
willing to discuss or debate anything.

Sure they are. You didn't offer to. You simply stated your BELIEF, not
facts or debatable information.

What did you expect, a pat on the head?

They are so convinced that their
opinion is right that anyone that disagrees with them must therefore have
the wrong opinion.

It's really hard to argue with two things....facts, and knowledge.
Especially when the knowledge and facts are based on both study, and
experience as parents.

If you spank your children you are a horrible person and
an abusive parent, there is no other answer, that is their logic.

Yes, that is the logic of logical people.

There is no such thing as a right or a wrong opinion; it's your opinion,
your personal point of view.

Which has a point, I'm sure.

To discuss means that both parties share their
opinion and are willing to listen to the other one. Neither of these people
are open to anything however.

Nonsense. You, instead of shuffling off like the cowardly child hitting
twerp you are, offer something other than you manufactured hurt
feelings to get out of actually bring up a point and offering to debate
it.

Do you have any facts to share about spanking that would show it to be
an effective parenting strategy superior to non-spanking methods?

If so, post them. And we can debate them. You've given nothing but
unsupported declarations so far. You haven't earned the right to be
treated respectfully and debated with, given that.

And when they run out of logical points to make they refuse to accept
defeat, resorting instead to adolescent insults (such as Kane stating that I
get sexually aroused by spanking my daughter, which is false), baseless
accusations (that I am scarring my children for life, this is absurd, a
large percentage of the population were spanked as a child, myself included,
and there are no long term effects) or even fabricating stories.

I haven't run out of logical points. YOU haven't answered my points
with anything by your opinion so far. I give you what I get. My
opinion, and what it's based on equal to yours.

When YOU want to discuss logic and facts, get back to us.

If you disagree with their opinion you must be either "selfish or to stupid
to understand" (Kane's own words).

Yes, in regards to the real needs of a child.

Lavonne even went so far as to accuse me
of not being a real parent.

You do babble on like a typical troll.

I disagree with her narrow-minded point of
view; therefore my children must be imaginary?

No, it was your babbling idiocy that likely made her think you have no
children. I'm beginning to suspect the same myself.

Well, Lavonne dear, I can
assure you that my children are very real. I have an 8 and a 5-year-old
daughter and a 2-year-old son.

No, I don't think they are. I think you are lying and making up these
characters to further your trolling.

I have and will continue to spank all three
of them as I feel it is necessary.

Not if the law changes.

And, here is a shocker for you; I don't
need your permission or even your approval.

Trust me, neither LaVonne or myself would be shocked at anything a
spanking compulsive would come up with.

And do not "fear for my
children" (her words, not mine), they are not abused.

My bet? You'll find out the answer to that as they pull into their teen
years.

All three of them
and healthy and thriving, the 8 yo gets straight As in school

She has a way to escape the betrayal of being hit by her protector. It
is a common for kids to pick different ways of escaping and hoping to
stave off further pain. I'd be more comfortable if she was average in
school, and had no other compensatory behaviors.

and the 5yo is
also doing very well, you don't get grades so much in Kindergarten but she
received a rating of "Proficient" or "Advanced Proficient" in all areas.

Small children will, for many years, do whatever the parent wishes, and
learns rather quickly with a spanker, that they had better, or else.

They pay for it later in life.

Which brings me to the point of this posting. At first I tried to discuss
these things and defend my position.

With what? More "it's my opinion?"

Greegor pointed out that I am wasting
my time trying to defend myself against anyone so narrow-minded and obtuse.

Goggle greegor's posting history for a look at the real greegor the
whore.

I am a father that spanks my children and I make no apologies for that.

Nor will you likely give one to us. I hope one day you wake up and give
that to your children, though. ...soon, with determination to raise
them without them having to fear you.

If
you disagree with me that is your prerogative.

Yes, but you seem to think it very unfair for anyone to express their
disagreement with you.

I am more than willing to
discuss this with other parents even if you disagree with me.

I'm a parent. I disagree with you.

We can agree
to disagree, and you can disagree without being disagreeable.

You appear very disagreeable to me, and I doubt that you would see any
disagreement as other than being diagreeable.

I will not
attack you

You are doing so right now, however, unlike YOU, pimple ass, I'm not
thinned skinned or unwilling to debate you. YOU are lying when you
pretend I or anyone else is.

or question your parenting skills if you choose not to spank your
children.

Oh, then you believe that I have good parenting skills, and I don't
spank, but your parenting is better, right?

I am more than willing to give or receive suggestions or advice to other
parents as long as they are not presented in the form of an attack.

You attack your children and expect to be treated gently? How does that
work?

I will
no longer defend myself or attempt to justify anything because I haven't
done anything wrong.

Odd, you go right ON to justify.....with:

Spanking is perfectly legal.

Apparently that's about over. I had hoped to see Americans do this by
force of morals than force of law, but LaVonne has lectured me on that
very persuasively. We didn't change many of our more horrendous abuses
of each other, blindly and faithfully defended, without laws having to
be past.

I had my dream though.

If you wish to have a
discussion that is fine, if all you are going to do is attack me then we
have nothing to say to each other.

Oh....please. Stay. Try proving your spanking is better than my
coaching.

I can hardly wait.

I can always count on the compulsive spanker to be quick to fall in
with such as greegor. You are a real champ.

You hit tiny children and rationalize it as "love." Live with it. Not
everyone is going to be nice to you.

0:-

http://nospank.net/miller26.htm

Again and again the simple truth is denied. Children raised with fear
of their parents (and you kid yourself when you train them NOT to show
that fear) are not healthy human beings.

..........VIOLENCE KILLS LOVE:
Spanking, the Fourth Commandment and the Suppression of Authentic
Emotions
An Interview given by Alice Miller to Borut Petrovic Jesenovec for the
magazine ONA, (Slovenia). Publication Date: June 28, 2005

1. You have found out that the Fourth Commandment ("Thou
shalt honor thy father and thy mother") is detrimental to the healthy
emotional life of a child. This will be quite shocking for many people.
How did you discover that the only function of this 'honorable
injunction' is in fact manipulation and subordination of the child?

The commandment is not detrimental to the child but later
to the adult. All children love their parents and they wouldn't need
the commandment to tell them to do so. But when we become adults and
realize that our love was exploited and we were abused, we should be
able to experience our true feelings, including rage, and not be forced
to love parents who were cruel to us. Most people are afraid of these
"negative" feelings towards their parents, so they take them out on
their children and in this way perpetuate the cycle of violence. It is
here that I see the destructive effect of the fourth commandment.
...........

[[[ Kane: It's a moral question for humanity. And until it's answered,
no matter how difficult that may be for the compulsives, honestly, we
will have a world like we see today and have had for centuries. We make
this world the house of horrors it is for some by our treatment of and
how we raise our children. ]]]

.....full interview article at:

http://nospank.net/miller26.htm

Thank you to everyone that e-mailed me to let me know you agreed with what I
had to say. I noticed you chose to e-mail instead of posting your reply to
the newsgroup, probably because you are as fed up with the inane babbling as
I am. I did notice that Kane chose to post a reply, I couldn't tell you
what it said though because I didn't bother to read it, nor do I have any
intention of reading he posts. As far as I am concerned, anything he writes
is the literary equivalent of the National Enquirer and belongs right
between the articles about the Elvis sighting and the woman that is pregnant
with Bigfoot's baby.



I appreciate everyone else's comments however, even those of you that
e-mailed to tell me that you choose not to spank your children, as well as
the suggestions that you sent to try as an alternative to spanking. I have
tried most of these, but my opinion on spanking has not changed, nor is it
likely to anytime in the future. I am always open to feedback however as
long as it is done on a mature level without an attempt to pass judgment.
As I said in my original post, if you disagree with my opinion that is fine,
you are entitled to your own opinion.




"Jirimi J" wrote in message
...


I wanted to say thank to Greegor, this is a bit long but I need to vent,
so
thanks to everyone else for allowing me to do so.



I am relatively new to this newsgroup and I must admit it is not exactly
what I expected. I joined because I am a father that believes that
spanking, when used properly, is a loving and effective form of
discipline.
I thought this would be a newsgroup where I could exchange experiences,
opinions and advice with other parents that share my point of view.



However that is not exactly what I have found here. While it seems to be
a
good newsgroup for the most part, some people seem to think that this is a
place to attack parents and put us on the defensive.



There are two individuals in particular, Kane Pohaku and Lavonne Carlson,
that frequently attack just about everyone that posts here. They are not
willing to discuss or debate anything. They are so convinced that their
opinion is right that anyone that disagrees with them must therefore have
the wrong opinion. If you spank your children you are a horrible person
and
an abusive parent, there is no other answer, that is their logic.



There is no such thing as a right or a wrong opinion; it's your opinion,
your personal point of view. To discuss means that both parties share
their
opinion and are willing to listen to the other one. Neither of these
people
are open to anything however.



And when they run out of logical points to make they refuse to accept
defeat, resorting instead to adolescent insults (such as Kane stating that
I
get sexually aroused by spanking my daughter, which is false), baseless
accusations (that I am scarring my children for life, this is absurd, a
large percentage of the population were spanked as a child, myself
included,
and there are no long term effects) or even fabricating stories.



If you disagree with their opinion you must be either "selfish or to
stupid
to understand" (Kane's own words). Lavonne even went so far as to accuse
me
of not being a real parent. I disagree with her narrow-minded point of
view; therefore my children must be imaginary? Well, Lavonne dear, I can
assure you that my children are very real. I have an 8 and a 5-year-old
daughter and a 2-year-old son. I have and will continue to spank all
three
of them as I feel it is necessary. And, here is a shocker for you; I
don't
need your permission or even your approval. And do not "fear for my
children" (her words, not mine), they are not abused. All three of them
and healthy and thriving, the 8 yo gets straight As in school and the 5yo
is
also doing very well, you don't get grades so much in Kindergarten but she
received a rating of "Proficient" or "Advanced Proficient" in all areas.



Which brings me to the point of this posting. At first I tried to discuss
these things and defend my position. Greegor pointed out that I am
wasting
my time trying to defend myself against anyone so narrow-minded and
obtuse.
I am a father that spanks my children and I make no apologies for that.
If
you disagree with me that is your prerogative. I am more than willing to
discuss this with other parents even if you disagree with me. We can
agree
to disagree, and you can disagree without being disagreeable. I will not
attack you or question your parenting skills if you choose not to spank
your
children.



I am more than willing to give or receive suggestions or advice to other
parents as long as they are not presented in the form of an attack. I
will
no longer defend myself or attempt to justify anything because I haven't
done anything wrong. Spanking is perfectly legal. If you wish to have a
discussion that is fine, if all you are going to do is attack me then we
have nothing to say to each other.

You don't lie very well.

0:-

Jirimi J wrote:
Thank you to everyone that e-mailed me to let me know you agreed with what I
had to say. I noticed you chose to e-mail instead of posting your reply to
the newsgroup, probably because you are as fed up with the inane babbling as
I am. I did notice that Kane chose to post a reply, I couldn't tell you
what it said though because I didn't bother to read it, nor do I have any
intention of reading he posts. As far as I am concerned, anything he writes
is the literary equivalent of the National Enquirer and belongs right
between the articles about the Elvis sighting and the woman that is pregnant
with Bigfoot's baby.



I appreciate everyone else's comments however, even those of you that
e-mailed to tell me that you choose not to spank your children, as well as
the suggestions that you sent to try as an alternative to spanking. I have
tried most of these, but my opinion on spanking has not changed, nor is it
likely to anytime in the future. I am always open to feedback however as
long as it is done on a mature level without an attempt to pass judgment.
As I said in my original post, if you disagree with my opinion that is fine,
you are entitled to your own opinion.




"Jirimi J" wrote in message
...


I wanted to say thank to Greegor, this is a bit long but I need to vent,
so
thanks to everyone else for allowing me to do so.



I am relatively new to this newsgroup and I must admit it is not exactly
what I expected. I joined because I am a father that believes that
spanking, when used properly, is a loving and effective form of
discipline.
I thought this would be a newsgroup where I could exchange experiences,
opinions and advice with other parents that share my point of view.



However that is not exactly what I have found here. While it seems to be
a
good newsgroup for the most part, some people seem to think that this is a
place to attack parents and put us on the defensive.



There are two individuals in particular, Kane Pohaku and Lavonne Carlson,
that frequently attack just about everyone that posts here. They are not
willing to discuss or debate anything. They are so convinced that their
opinion is right that anyone that disagrees with them must therefore have
the wrong opinion. If you spank your children you are a horrible person
and
an abusive parent, there is no other answer, that is their logic.



There is no such thing as a right or a wrong opinion; it's your opinion,
your personal point of view. To discuss means that both parties share
their
opinion and are willing to listen to the other one. Neither of these
people
are open to anything however.



And when they run out of logical points to make they refuse to accept
defeat, resorting instead to adolescent insults (such as Kane stating that
I
get sexually aroused by spanking my daughter, which is false), baseless
accusations (that I am scarring my children for life, this is absurd, a
large percentage of the population were spanked as a child, myself
included,
and there are no long term effects) or even fabricating stories.



If you disagree with their opinion you must be either "selfish or to
stupid
to understand" (Kane's own words). Lavonne even went so far as to accuse
me
of not being a real parent. I disagree with her narrow-minded point of
view; therefore my children must be imaginary? Well, Lavonne dear, I can
assure you that my children are very real. I have an 8 and a 5-year-old
daughter and a 2-year-old son. I have and will continue to spank all
three
of them as I feel it is necessary. And, here is a shocker for you; I
don't
need your permission or even your approval. And do not "fear for my
children" (her words, not mine), they are not abused. All three of them
and healthy and thriving, the 8 yo gets straight As in school and the 5yo
is
also doing very well, you don't get grades so much in Kindergarten but she
received a rating of "Proficient" or "Advanced Proficient" in all areas.



Which brings me to the point of this posting. At first I tried to discuss
these things and defend my position. Greegor pointed out that I am
wasting
my time trying to defend myself against anyone so narrow-minded and
obtuse.
I am a father that spanks my children and I make no apologies for that.
If
you disagree with me that is your prerogative. I am more than willing to
discuss this with other parents even if you disagree with me. We can
agree
to disagree, and you can disagree without being disagreeable. I will not
attack you or question your parenting skills if you choose not to spank
your
children.



I am more than willing to give or receive suggestions or advice to other
parents as long as they are not presented in the form of an attack. I
will
no longer defend myself or attempt to justify anything because I haven't
done anything wrong. Spanking is perfectly legal. If you wish to have a
discussion that is fine, if all you are going to do is attack me then we
have nothing to say to each other.

I applaud the non-spankers who refuse to allow Kane
and LaVonne to represent them.

Often, in many causes/beliefs there are rabid and
intolerant extremists who would pretend to represent
the more moderate views.

Greegor wrote:
I applaud the non-spankers who refuse to allow Kane
and LaVonne to represent them.

Line them up. I'd like to meet them.

You know many? Or is it a fact that I don't represent anyone?

Often, in many causes/beliefs there are rabid and
intolerant extremists who would pretend to represent
the more moderate views.

A convoluted exercise in insinuation devoid of fact. Yep, it's greegor
the whore alrighty.

What would be "more moderate views" on spanking by non-spankers? Or
were you comparing us to spanker and spanking advocates?

0:-