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#81
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Doug wrote:
Yes, why do you suppose I mention it at all? Meth is a far more serious drug in effects and outcomes, until final resolution of course, which immediately levels the playing field. "Final," of course, being Death. Hi, Kane, Fortunately, methamphetamine dependence is as treatable as other addictions, If more cost, more time, and more risk of psychosis is taken into account. so something can be done before addicts reach the final resolution. Yes. And that costs resources. And you have to be able to reach the addict. That too takes resources. There are other resolutions along the way that are far more digestable for addicts and their families. Sure there are. And they all take money. And the damage done by the meth addict my cut them off from much of it. Emerging brain science is helping to improve those treatment interventions, as represented in the study I described. Yes, funny they aren't free. More rapidly addictive, more debilitating in disabling the user more quickly. More that what? Unfortunately, there was a great deal of misinformation distributed about methamphetamine addiction. Part of that misinformation was the myth that one becomes addicted to methamphetamine with their first "hit." It is not claimed to be so in all cases. You are making that up, or taking one or two claims repeated and pretending they are common claims. Not so. I've found ONE source for that claim. Never any others that are credible as to prime source themselves. Bull****, just like you post. The issue should not be the few that like all propagandist bull****ters such as you, Doug, try to blow up to something it is not. The fact is that around 5% of all those who have tried methamphetamine at least once in their lifetimes were still using the last month of the survey. That's hardly good news. While 24% of those who tried cocaine in their lifetime were using crack cocaine the last month of the survey. Cocaine is out of one's system in a few hours. Meth takes days. Any chemical while in one's system is doing it's damage for the duration of its stay. And 15% of those who tried marijuana at least once in their life were still using the last month. Marijuana is not addictive physically. Those who are addicted to a chemical are likely, of course, to be using during the last 30 days. The percentage using cocaine in the last thirty days is five times the percentage of those who continue to use methamphetamine. Using and continue to use are not exactly the same. I have included the raw data and its source below. Yes. And you need to study this issue further without the influence of the propagandists YOU serve. "Party" use is similar in effects, though of shorter duration per episode for booze. And while alcohol can in certain people produce violent belligerence, in meth users it can result in more active violence and harm. Anyone working with these populations knows this. Don't they, Doug? LIFETIME USE Marijuana 94,900,000 users 40.4% of total population Marijuana is not an addictive drug. Cocaine 33,000,000 users 14.4% of total population Inhalants 18,000,000 users 8.1% of total population Methamphetamine 12,000,000 users 5.3% of total population USE OF DRUG DURING THE LAST MONTH Percentage of total Drug Number population Source Methamphetamine 597,000 0.3% http://tinyurl.com/krf4v Meth has a longer high. Crack Cocaine* 8,000,000 3.6% http://tinyurl.com/s8j46 Short high and very expensive. Marijuana 14,600,000 6.2% http://tinyurl.com/n7mkp Not and addictive drug. Effects are minimal compared to cocaine and virtually nonexistent compared to Meth. And Marijuana does little damage to the brain that I know of. You got any studies on that, Doug? There are few toxins in MJ. Just the smoked form, with particulate damaging the lungs. No brain and nervous system effects I've ever heard of rather than temporary. Know of many potheads doing violent crimes? Even to get the money to buy? Your arguments are stupid, as you are stupid to think you can sell your swill to all but the dysfunctional twits you cater to here. Meth is a killer like no other. It is spreading. It may be stopped or seriously slowed if we don't push it aside as we did other substances. We have become jaded about the others...and that has not stopped them wrecking families and hurting children. You want to consign this one to the same dustbin? See why I say you hate children and families yet? 0:- -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Fortunately, methamphetamine dependence is as treatable as other addictions, If more cost, more time, and more risk of psychosis is taken into account. Hi, Kane, To the contrary, the same treatment, for the same length of time, at the same cost, is just as effective for methamphetamine addicts as those chemically dependent on other drugs. That was the salient point made by the research, many times duplicated. |
#83
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Fortunately, methamphetamine dependence is as treatable as other
addictions, If more cost, more time, and more risk of psychosis is taken into account. Hi, Kane, To the contrary, the same treatment, for the same length of time, at the same cost is just as effective for methamphetamine addicts as those chemically dependent on other drugs. That was the salient point made by the research, many times duplicated. |
#84
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KANE SCREWED UP
Hi Kane!
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#85
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Kane wants to pretend that Meth is so much
worse than other street drugs that it justifies LOTS MORE NEW AND SPECIAL FUNDING! The reports on treatability deflate his PR campaign. Fox News figured out the NACO PR idiot was just lobbying for dollars. The opposition group couldn't even show up, just cited statistics and still won out. Fox News must have figured out that NACO was just doing a money grab. The interview was not re-aired in their normal cycle of repetition. Doug wrote: Fortunately, methamphetamine dependence is as treatable as other addictions, If more cost, more time, and more risk of psychosis is taken into account. Hi, Kane, To the contrary, the same treatment, for the same length of time, at the same cost is just as effective for methamphetamine addicts as those chemically dependent on other drugs. That was the salient point made by the research, many times duplicated. |
#86
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Greegor wrote:
Kane wants to pretend that Meth is so much worse than other street drugs that it justifies LOTS MORE NEW AND SPECIAL FUNDING! Nope. Equal funding. And in some aspects it is very much worse. One has to consume a whole hell of a lot more of other abused substances to get the ruinous effect of meth. And spend a whole lot more time at it. The reports on treatability deflate his PR campaign. The report was not, if you didn't notice, not accompanied with a citation as to source. Read'em and weep, stupid: http://www.mihivnews.com/features/tina_and_msm.htm "The UCLA Integrated Substance Abuse Programs Associate Director, Richard Rawson, Ph.D gave an excellent presentation in Kalamazoo about the signs, symptoms and effects on the body of methamphetamine. He also talked about treatment that has been successful at his clinic – which has been seeing meth addicts for about eight years. There are special issues for treatment of methamphetamine addicts. With mental states ranging from paranoid to psychotic, their behavior can put others at risk. Their brains have been physically altered by the drug and full recovery takes 6 months to two years, Rawson said. He said treatment needs to be behavior based, not cognitive based, since memory, cognition and reasoning are seriously impaired by meth. Rawson also emphasized the importance of positive reinforcement for treatment. The most important thing in the beginning of treatment is to keep them coming back. The Lancet (4.2.05) reported on a study at Rawson’s UCLA clinic. One of the researchers, Steve Shoptaw said that the treatment program specifically for gay men targeting drug use is also showing improvement at reducing sexual behavior. “It’s important, because by the time gay men show up at the clinic door, three out of five are HIV positive,” he said. Rawson’s real take home message to the audience in Kalamazoo was, by the time you see treatment admissions for meth addiction, you’ve already had a methamphetamine problem for seven years. Curry said he was not able to find a treatment program in Michigan that could deal with his meth addiction, so this spring he went out of state, where he graduated from a 28-day program in 16 days and was sent home with a 20-day relapse prevention plan. " Yer being lied to, Greg, and loving every minute of it, aren't you, boy? http://www.laramieboomerang.com/news...StoryID=104194 [[[Why sure the same treatments will work with meth addicts.....R R R R R R R R R ]]] "“It became evident that this was a different drug that they weren’t admitting to,” Johnson said. “They were admitting to all the other drugs, but they wouldn’t admit to the meth. If that’s their drug of choice, then they don’t want you messing with their drug of choice.” Counselors also learned that traditional recovery programs — based on a 28-day inpatient model — wouldn’t work for meth: Addicts would relapse as soon as they finished the programs. It’s necessary to keep a meth addict in treatment for up to two years, allowing the brain to heal and allowing the addict to regain clear mental functioning, Warren said. “It’s like dealing with somebody who has severe head trauma,” she said. Because of the length of treatment — and because it takes so long for them to feel normal again — people often drop out and go back to using. As such, therapy is often complemented with anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications. Even after treatment, recovering meth addicts are in danger of relapsing for seven or eight years, Johnson said. " http://web.kitsapsun.com/meth/treatmentworks.html [[[ Money boys, it takes MONEY to get the kind of treatment that works .... even partially with Meth addicts. ]]] ""Without such treatment upon release, it is likely that many offenders will relapse and re-offend, adding still further to the methamphetamine problem," a state policy paper said last July. Two-thirds of meth addicts at Kitsap Recovery Center relapse treatment. The relapse rate goes down significantly in programs specifically designed to deal with problems unique to meth. Such programs are not common in Washington, although they were recommended by the methamphetamine work group of the Governor's Council on Substance Abuse. "Twelve step doesn't work for meth addicts because their brain doesn't work for 30 to 60 days. ... Nobody wants a meth addict because they're a pain in the butt," said Roger Lake, a retired Washington State Patrol sergeant and official with the Washington State Narcotics Investigators Association. County jails, where offenders with sentences under a year serve their time, rarely offer drug treatment, and Kitsap's jail is no exception. They simply don't have the money, nor the resources to find outside funding. The model program at the Thurston County jail gets 25 percent of its money from the county and the rest from a grant. It costs $268,000 a year for about 50 prisoners and has been able to prove that the improved recidivism rate makes it worth the cost." http://www.ag.state.il.us/methnet/fi...ent.html#known [[[ This is not a treatment center. It has NO investment in meth treatment, and I have no investment in non-profits, or any other organizations that treat for meth addiction...but I've certainly been there professionally and know what goes on. You are being lied to Greg. We were just told by your mentor that it's the same for meth addicts as other substance abuser addicts. Kind of disagrees with a lot of professionals, no? ]]] "hat is the best treatment for meth addicts? Back to top Because traditional treatment models are not effective for meth addiction, meth-specific treatment programs have been developed. Successful meth treatment requires the use of cognitive-behavioral therapy. The cognitive-behavioral therapy approach, which focuses on how the way we think affects our feelings and actions, helps patients identify and plan for the triggers associated with the substance abuse. This approach prepares the addict for life-long recovery. A critical consideration in meth treatment is something known as the “wall.” Around 45 to 120 days into treatment, recovering addicts experience physiological changes that often lead to a return to meth use. This period of increased depression and need for the drug is the single significant factor today to the false perception that meth addiction is “untreatable.” Although recovering from meth addiction is challenging, it is not impossible. For meth treatment to be successful, it simply must meet the demands of meth addiction. Research shows that recovering meth addicts require a longer and more intense outpatient program than is the case for many other drugs. These outpatient services should be very structured and include frequent contact between the treatment provider and the recovering addict. " Fox News figured out the NACO PR idiot was just lobbying for dollars. The opposition group couldn't even show up, just cited statistics and still won out. Fox News must have figured out that NACO was just doing a money grab. The interview was not re-aired in their normal cycle of repetition. Fox News? R R R R R ...Oh no, they wouldn't have a slanted view of the issue. R R R R R Doug wrote: Fortunately, methamphetamine dependence is as treatable as other addictions, If more cost, more time, and more risk of psychosis is taken into account. Hi, Kane, To the contrary, the same treatment, for the same length of time, at the same cost is just as effective for methamphetamine addicts as those chemically dependent on other drugs. That was the salient point made by the research, many times duplicated. -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#87
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Rawson’s real take home message to the audience in Kalamazoo was, by
the time you see treatment admissions for meth addiction, you’ve already had a methamphetamine problem for seven years. Hi, Kane, Dr. Rawson, who is at the forefront of researchers proving that methamphetamine dependency is treated just as effectively as addiction to other drugs, points out the reason why treatment center admissions are increasing now as use of the drug has been decreasing. http://www.laramieboomerang.com/news...StoryID=104194 It’s necessary to keep a meth addict in treatment for up to two years, allowing the brain to heal and allowing the addict to regain clear mental functioning, Warren said. It is necessary to keep an addict of most chemicals in outpatient treatment for up to two years after leaving residential treatment. There is nothing new in this. And certainly nothing unique for those in recovery from methamphetamine addiction. "Even after treatment, recovering meth addicts are in danger of relapsing for seven or eight years, Johnson said. " Even after treatment, recovering addicts with any drug of choice are in danger of relapsing for seven, eight, nine, or ten years. I think everyone knows that. The danger of relapse after treatment is not unique to methamphetamine users. The success rate -- the numbers of recovering methamphetamine addicts that do NOT relapse -- is the same as it is for those recovering from other drugs, like cocaine. Dr. Rawson has pointed this out many times and proved it through his clinical trials at UCLA. "Twelve step doesn't work for meth addicts because their brain doesn't work for 30 to 60 days. ... Nobody wants a meth addict because they're a pain in the butt," said Roger Lake, a retired Washington State Patrol sergeant and official with the Washington State Narcotics Investigators Association. You may want to ask members of Narcotics Anonymous, whose membership is made up of many recovering methamphetamine addicts. They work the steps. The NA members probably know a little more about 12-step programs than a retired cop, who is quoted above. The cop has it wrong. In reality, methamphetamine addicts respond very well to Minnesota Model approaches which heavily involve 12-step work. The standard, evidence-based treatment for methamphetamine addiction, like addictions to cocaine and other drugs, is cognitive behavioral approaches combined with a 12-step program. http://www.ag.state.il.us/methnet/fi...ent.html#known Because traditional treatment models are not effective for meth addiction, meth-specific treatment programs have been developed. Successful meth treatment requires the use of cognitive-behavioral therapy. The cognitive-behavioral therapy approach, which focuses on how the way we think affects our feelings and actions, helps patients identify and plan for the triggers associated with the substance abuse. This approach prepares the addict for life-long recovery. Cognitive-behavioral therapy is the standard, evidence-based approach for drug addiction. It is preferred over rational-emotive or cognitive approaches. Beck probably didn't understand this population -- people dependent on all drugs. You may want to check with someone involved with treatment. That your source mentions cognitive-behavioral therapy as the preferred approach supports my contention that meth addiction is treated the same as addictions to other drugs. “wall.” Around 45 to 120 days into treatment, recovering addicts experience physiological changes that often lead to a return to meth use. This period of increased depression and need for the drug is the single significant factor today to the false perception that meth addiction is “untreatable.” It is called "Post-Acute-Withdrawal" and these symptoms appear in people in recovery from many different drugs, including alcohol, during this time frame. The information is not wrong, it is just not unique in any way to those recoverying from methamphetamine. Depression, problems with short term memory and concentration, sleep disruption, hypersensitivity to stress and mood swings are experienced by people recovering from many different drugs, including methamphetamine. |
#88
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Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was outlawing pseudoephedrine
Doug wrote:
Rawson’s real take home message to the audience in Kalamazoo was, by the time you see treatment admissions for meth addiction, you’ve already had a methamphetamine problem for seven years. Hi, Kane, Dr. Rawson, who is at the forefront of researchers proving that methamphetamine dependency is treated just as effectively as addiction to other drugs, points out the reason why treatment center admissions are increasing now as use of the drug has been decreasing. Circular reasoning at its finest. Just your style. Of course if people are IN TREATMENT THEY ARE NOT USING, hence the drop in "users." They'll be replaced. Give it a little time. Unless, of course, the efforts SOME of us are making has effect. We've reason to think that education and strict law enforcement is having some impact. http://www.laramieboomerang.com/news...StoryID=104194 It’s necessary to keep a meth addict in treatment for up to two years, allowing the brain to heal and allowing the addict to regain clear mental functioning, Warren said. It is necessary to keep an addict of most chemicals in outpatient treatment for up to two years after leaving residential treatment. There is nothing new in this. And certainly nothing unique for those in recovery from methamphetamine addiction. R R R R ...... count the rate of falling of the wagon, dummy. "Even after treatment, recovering meth addicts are in danger of relapsing for seven or eight years, Johnson said. " Even after treatment, recovering addicts with any drug of choice are in danger of relapsing for seven, eight, nine, or ten years. I think everyone knows that. The danger of relapse after treatment is not unique to methamphetamine users. It simply happens More often to meth addicts, stupid. The success rate -- the numbers of recovering methamphetamine addicts that do NOT relapse -- is the same as it is for those recovering from other drugs, like cocaine. Dr. Rawson has pointed this out many times and proved it through his clinical trials at UCLA. Then he's dealing in nonsense. Show his work here, with links to it at least. "Twelve step doesn't work for meth addicts because their brain doesn't work for 30 to 60 days. ... Nobody wants a meth addict because they're a pain in the butt," said Roger Lake, a retired Washington State Patrol sergeant and official with the Washington State Narcotics Investigators Association. You may want to ask members of Narcotics Anonymous, whose membership is made up of many recovering methamphetamine addicts. They work the steps. The NA members probably know a little more about 12-step programs than a retired cop, who is quoted above. Gee, the person on the observing end, NOT a bleeding heart liberal and addiction apologist disagrees and you think he's not qualified. R R R R Of ALL the people that might come into contact with a meth addict THIS would be the one most likely to see the bad results. He and the addicts children, of course. The cop has it wrong. No he doesn't. He's where the rubber hits the road, dummy. No clinical soft-peddling for him. He has to deal with the nitty gritty of what meth addicts actually DO. In reality, methamphetamine addicts respond very well to Minnesota Model approaches which heavily involve 12-step work. The standard, evidence-based treatment for methamphetamine addiction, like addictions to cocaine and other drugs, is cognitive behavioral approaches combined with a 12-step program. Mmmm..hhhmmmmm...emphasis on the "heavily involved," Doug. http://www.ag.state.il.us/methnet/fi...ent.html#known Because traditional treatment models are not effective for meth addiction, meth-specific treatment programs have been developed. Successful meth treatment requires the use of cognitive-behavioral therapy. The cognitive-behavioral therapy approach, which focuses on how the way we think affects our feelings and actions, helps patients identify and plan for the triggers associated with the substance abuse. This approach prepares the addict for life-long recovery. Cognitive-behavioral therapy is the standard, evidence-based approach for drug addiction. It is preferred over rational-emotive or cognitive approaches. Witch doctors and laying on of hands would be preferred to either one. Beck probably didn't understand this population -- people dependent on all drugs. You'd be amazed what cops understand. You may want to check with someone involved with treatment. R R R R...only on a monthly basis now. Far less than I used to. You are full of ****. That your source mentions cognitive-behavioral therapy as the preferred approach supports my contention that meth addiction is treated the same as addictions to other drugs. Time, numbers of times the addict uses again, and the smaller number of meth addicts in treatment ALL contribute to your being wrong, Doug. “wall.” Around 45 to 120 days into treatment, recovering addicts experience physiological changes that often lead to a return to meth use. This period of increased depression and need for the drug is the single significant factor today to the false perception that meth addiction is “untreatable.” It is called "Post-Acute-Withdrawal" and these symptoms appear in people in recovery from many different drugs, including alcohol, during this time frame. The information is not wrong, it is just not unique in any way to those recoverying from methamphetamine. It is in intensity and duration, Liar. Depression, problems with short term memory and concentration, sleep disruption, hypersensitivity to stress and mood swings are experienced by people recovering from many different drugs, including methamphetamine. Yes, so? Now let me see. You managed to leave out paranoia, and dangerous violent rages. Why is that I wonder? http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/publica...ethintf/3.html "Also, research shows that protracted brain dysfunction persists for months after methamphetamine use stops. Other clinical issues include continuing paranoia, hypersexuality, irritability, drug craving in response to conditioned cues, and violence." None of your arguments address the cost issue, Doug. Notice that? The fact that meth addicts are taking beds away from OTHERS that need treatment? All because YOU and those that think as you do, believe it can all be done without money, or on the cheap. Bull**** artists, the lot of you. 0:- REF: http://itsnt166.iowa.uiowa.edu/uns-a..._comments.html [[[ Recent enough for you, dummy? Considerably more recent than yours.]]] "The report issued Jan. 17 by the State of Iowa Office of Drug Control Policy credits the state's pseudoephedrine control law (Senate File 169), enacted in May 2005, with a decrease in meth lab incidents from an average of 119 per month before the law to 20 per month since the law was passed. Pseudoephedrine, a main ingredient in some cold and flu medications, is also a main ingredient in meth production. The law put the medications behind lock-and-key at pharmacies. However, the report also states that the law has not reduced the supply of imported meth or demand for the drug. " "However, the law hasn't done anything about addiction, use or some of the other negative consequences." For one, because imported meth is more pure, it increases people's chances of dependence and any associated medical problems. In addition, child endangerment and abuse problems overall have not been reduced because they are related to people's use of the drug, not its manufacture, Arndt said. The Iowa Consortium for Substance Abuse Research and Evaluation has been evaluating meth and other substance abuse prevention and treatment programs that are publicly funded. Meth treatment programs have a 65 percent success rate while alcohol treatment programs have a 47 percent success rate, the consortium reported in a September 2005 client treatment outcomes report. "Contrary to some national news reports, meth treatment programs make a notable difference. Paradoxically, meth's downside is one of its benefits toward treatment -- it's highly addictive so the speed at which people bottom out and need help is greatly accelerated," Arndt said. In just one year, people on meth can lose their jobs and families, be arrested and receive prison sentences. Yet people with alcohol or marijuana abuse can go decades without any obvious adverse affects or legal problems. From the sample of 1,039 Iowans in publicly funded treatment programs, 45 percent were being treated for alcohol, 25 percent for marijuana and 20 percent for meth. " That means that there has to be a 20% budget INCREASE, to not overload the system, Doug. Simple math, not your numbers trickery. Pretending that to fund one program another must be defunded is YOUR bull****, not those that make the decisions. http://www.jointogether.org/news/fea...ucus-puts.html [[[ Here's an interesting claim. Fits your model but for ONE little point, MINE....scarcity of resources. ]]] ""There's a false but widespread belief that methamphetamine treatment is ineffective," said Carol Falkowski, research communications director for the Hazelden Foundation, who will testify at the Capitol Hill briefing. "It's the same thing that happened when the crack-cocaine epidemic exploded. There are effective treatments, but they're not generally as available as they should be."" [[[ And I do not consider the treatment ineffective, as you've tried to portray my argument by your sly shifting from what I DID IN FACT SAY. I consider it more DIFFICULT. And more difficult to come by. And meth addicts to be less forthcoming for treatment. ]]] http://alcoholism.about.com/gi/dynam...a-se061206.php http://tinyurl.com/k9zdl ""Meth has such a rapid effect that you see parenting just break down literally," Ostler said. "Families change rapidly in that time and I think that's very terrifying for children," she said. Yet despite those conditions, the researchers found that when the children were asked about "sad or scary times," they talked first or most often about the experience of losing their parents, even months later, Haight said. "Most want desperately to be with their families and feel a great deal of pain and grief over being separated from their parents." Another complication is that some of these children had taken on the role of caring for their parents, as well as younger siblings, when their parents were under the influence. One child asked who would watch over her mother when she was "sick," Haight said. They also experience emotional harm from the stigma of being the children of methamphetamine users, many of whom face years in prison. The children often also carry a strong distrust of authority figures, passed on from their parents as a result of the criminal activity involved, sometimes reinforced by a meth-induced paranoia. Some have been actively socialized into a rural drug culture. "It becomes a huge blockage" to intervention in some cases, Ostler said. For children raised from an early age with their parents using methamphetamine, even routine aspects of family life, like regular meal and bed times, may represent "culture shock," the authors say. " -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
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