Gag

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other.

In other words, you LIED when you said he "spoke against it"! ;-)

"It?" '"the rod"?'

I mentioned no rod, liar.

And those aren't my words. You removed the reference, liar, to the
author, not even bothering to use quotes, and allowing any reader to
presume I said that above.

See what I mean about you being a liar?

Doan

Kane

On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!

You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!

Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?

Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!


Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!

"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children?

You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-)

Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were
to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent
acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered.

Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-)

You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting
to divert, rather than answer the question asked.

The proven liar here is you!

Do you understand Parables?

I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-)

I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children
was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently
or even harshly toward children.

Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? To show you that
his father is a non-punishing one?


Doan

You stopped here?

Yes, STUPID!

Doan

Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish
parents to make up their own minds.

You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as
soon as it moved into more proof.


'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?".

You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a
hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your
own lying kind can see it plainly.

You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates,
who themselves are non-spankers.

That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan.

You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than
to others.

Kane



Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The
younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the
property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between
them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled
to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute
living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place
throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and
hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him
to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself
with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything.
But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired
hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I
will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have
sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called
you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and
went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him
and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and
kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best
one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his
feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and
celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost
and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24

Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child?

Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?"

And finally ...

I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive
parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim
the need to spank an do so.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven."

Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and
the Bible?

Here's some more for you to contemplate.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little
ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes?

I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical
narrative.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html

... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh
theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8,
Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the
first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine
states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,
Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early
Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the
first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who
refused to do so.

Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this:




1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all
the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary
Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and
James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and
Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and
when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient
to her parents' word.

5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt
beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what
sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the
first rod stroke to her bottom.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the
last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he
said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult
bruised thee with a fresh cut stick?

11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more.

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image
of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image
of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional
image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a
rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ...

Kane


Doan

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other.

In other words, you LIED when you said he "spoke against it"! ;-)

"It?" '"the rod"?'

I mentioned no rod, liar.

The rod is a metaphor for spanking, STUPID!

And those aren't my words. You removed the reference, liar, to the
author, not even bothering to use quotes, and allowing any reader to
presume I said that above.

Hahaha! You have proven once again to be very STUPID!

See what I mean about you being a liar?

Yes, the proven liar is, once again, YOU!

Doan

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!
You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!
Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

Speculation isn't claim

Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian."

Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived?

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?
Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire
world of them.

Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!

Nope.

Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???
In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!
"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any
argument against my comments.

Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for?

Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children?

You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-)
Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were
to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent
acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered.

Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-)

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more.

You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting
to divert, rather than answer the question asked.

The proven liar here is you!

Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual.

Do you understand Parables?

I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-)
I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children
was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently
or even harshly toward children.

Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross?

Are you a Christian?

I'm an atheist and I know.

I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him.

To show you that
his father is a non-punishing one?

Non sequitur.

Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that.

Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank?

Doan
You stopped here?

Yes, STUPID!

It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it.

Can't deal with what's below here, Doan?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?"

Doan

Kane


Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish
parents to make up their own minds.

You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as
soon as it moved into more proof.


'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?".

You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a
hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your
own lying kind can see it plainly.

You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates,
who themselves are non-spankers.

That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan.

You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than
to others.

Kane


Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The
younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the
property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between
them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled
to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute
living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place
throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and
hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him
to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself
with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything.
But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired
hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I
will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have
sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called
you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and
went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him
and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and
kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best
one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his
feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and
celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost
and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24

Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child?

Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?"

And finally ...

I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive
parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim
the need to spank an do so.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven."

Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and
the Bible?

Here's some more for you to contemplate.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little
ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes?

I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical
narrative.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html

... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh
theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8,
Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the
first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine
states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,
Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early
Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the
first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who
refused to do so.

Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this:




1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all
the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary
Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and
James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and
Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and
when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient
to her parents' word.

5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt
beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what
sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the
first rod stroke to her bottom.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the
last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he
said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult
bruised thee with a fresh cut stick?

11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more.

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image
of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image
of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional
image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a
rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ...

Kane


Doan

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!
You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!
Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

Speculation isn't claim

Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian."

Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived?

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?
Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire
world of them.

Hahaha! So Christian don't spank???

Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!

Nope.

Yup!

Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???
In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where?

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!
"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any
argument against my comments.

The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently?

Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for?

He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian
doctrine? Agreed?

Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children?

You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-)
Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were
to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent
acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered.

Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-)

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

So tasering a six-year old is not violent?

You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more.

To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-)

You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting
to divert, rather than answer the question asked.

The proven liar here is you!

Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual.

Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-)

Do you understand Parables?

I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-)
I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children
was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently
or even harshly toward children.

Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross?

Are you a Christian?

Did I say I was?

I'm an atheist and I know.

Hahaha! That's funny!

I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him.

Then tell me what the reason is?

To show you that
his father is a non-punishing one?

Non sequitur.

Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that.

Then tell me why he died on the cross.

Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank?

That what many christians believe. Are you saying that christians don't
believe in spanking?


Doan
You stopped here?

Yes, STUPID!

It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it.

You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being
unable to read a simple chart! ;-)

Can't deal with what's below here, Doan?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank?

Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?"

Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids?

Doan

Doan

Kane


Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish
parents to make up their own minds.

You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as
soon as it moved into more proof.


'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?".

You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a
hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your
own lying kind can see it plainly.

You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates,
who themselves are non-spankers.

That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan.

You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than
to others.

Kane


Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The
younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the
property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between
them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled
to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute
living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place
throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and
hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him
to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself
with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything.
But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired
hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I
will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have
sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called
you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and
went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him
and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and
kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best
one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his
feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and
celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost
and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24

Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child?

Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?"

And finally ...

I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive
parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim
the need to spank an do so.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven."

Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and
the Bible?

Here's some more for you to contemplate.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little
ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes?

I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical
narrative.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html

... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh
theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8,
Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the
first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine
states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,
Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early
Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the
first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who
refused to do so.

Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this:




1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all
the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary
Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and
James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and
Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and
when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient
to her parents' word.

5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt
beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what
sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the
first rod stroke to her bottom.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the
last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he
said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult
bruised thee with a fresh cut stick?

11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more.

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image
of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image
of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional
image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a
rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ...

Kane


Doan

Doan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!
You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!
Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

Speculation isn't claim

Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian."

Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived?

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?
Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire
world of them.

Hahaha! So Christian don't spank???

See what I mean about you lying.

The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean
I claim no Christians spank .

You do lie so.

You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play
games.

Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!

Nope.

Yup!

Nope.


Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???
In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where?

All quotes I've offered.

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!
"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any
argument against my comments.

The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently?

What has that to do with spanking.?

Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him?

Just how stupid are you?

Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for?

He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian
doctrine? Agreed?

Nope.

By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved?

He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine.

It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many
spankers, to punish, but to teach.

Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children?

You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-)
Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were
to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent
acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered.

Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-)

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

So tasering a six-year old is not violent?

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more.

To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-)

I'm afraid that backfired on you just a bit. It's stupid to try and
destract from the issue.

You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting
to divert, rather than answer the question asked.

The proven liar here is you!

Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual.

Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-)

No you haven't.

Do you understand Parables?

I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-)
I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children
was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently
or even harshly toward children.

Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross?

Are you a Christian?

Did I say I was?

Notice the diversion? Are you a Christian?

I didn't ask if I said you were, I ask you if you were.

I'm an atheist and I know.

Hahaha! That's funny!

Are you suggesting a atheist can't study religion?

Or have been religious at one time?

Or that an atheist is wrong about religion because he's an atheist?

I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him.

Then tell me what the reason is?

I did. .

To show you that
his father is a non-punishing one?

Non sequitur.

Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that.

Then tell me why he died on the cross.

I did. He was not being punished.

Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank?

That what many christians believe.

And many do not.

Are you saying that christians don't
believe in spanking?

Did I say that? Show me where.


Doan
You stopped here?

Yes, STUPID!

It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it.

You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being
unable to read a simple chart! ;-)

Your stupidity is in misinterpreting and claiming things for charts
that are not included.

Can't deal with what's below here, Doan?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank?

Where did I say Christians don't spank?

Some do, some don't. You are simply being stupid again.

What we can conclude is that some Christians don't follow their own
scripture.

As soon as it inconveniences their bias they resort to the Old
Testament.

Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?"

Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids?

Do you believe you are raving nutcase that rather than admit you are
wrong, continually project meanings not in evidence?

Doan

'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12'

That doesn't say, 'Christians are free, of course, to overlook that
when it comes to children.'

Christians that actually practice Christianity don't miss the point as
Sue Lawrence doesn't.

Kane


Doan

Kane


Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish
parents to make up their own minds.

You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as
soon as it moved into more proof.


'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?".

You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a
hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your
own lying kind can see it plainly.

You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates,
who themselves are non-spankers.

That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan.

You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than
to others.

Kane


Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The
younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the
property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between
them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled
to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute
living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place
throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and
hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him
to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself
with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything.
But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired
hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I
will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have
sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called
you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and
went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him
and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and
kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best
one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his
feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and
celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost
and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24

Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child?

Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?"

And finally ...

I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive
parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim
the need to spank an do so.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven."

Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and
the Bible?

Here's some more for you to contemplate.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little
ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes?

I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical
narrative.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html

... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh
theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8,
Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the
first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine
states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,
Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early
Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the
first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who
refused to do so.

Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this:




1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all
the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary
Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and
James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and
Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and
when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient
to her parents' word.

5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt
beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what
sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the
first rod stroke to her bottom.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the
last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he
said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult
bruised thee with a fresh cut stick?

11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more.

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image
of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image
of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional
image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a
rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ...

Kane


Doan

On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!
You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!
Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

Speculation isn't claim

Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian."

Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived?

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?
Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire
world of them.

Hahaha! So Christian don't spank???

See what I mean about you lying.

Yes, I see that you are lying?

The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean
I claim no Christians spank .

Hahaha! What percentage of Christian don't spank, Kane?

You do lie so.

Yes, you do lie so! ;-)

You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play
games.

Hahaha! You are projecting again. ;-)


Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!

Nope.

Yup!

Nope.

Yup!


Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???
In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where?

All quotes I've offered.

Then you are once again showed that you are REALLY STUPID! ;-)

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!
"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any
argument against my comments.

The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently?

What has that to do with spanking.?

It's about punishment, STUPID!

Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him?

You tell me!

Just how stupid are you?

You have shown yourself SO STUPID as not to be able to read a simple
chart!

Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for?

He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian
doctrine? Agreed?

Nope.

Than what?

By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved?

He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine.

Why, if it's not for punishment?

It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many
spankers, to punish, but to teach.

Hahaha! Showing your stupidity agian. Look it up in the dictionary,
STUPID. Here, let me do it for you:

n.

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them?

If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition
from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred
to and in fact spoke against it?

Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children.

0:-]

Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have
never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking!
You must not be a Christian.

I've never claimed I was!
Nor did I claim you weren't.

"You must not be a Christian."

Speculation isn't claim

Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian."

Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived?

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to
such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his
hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Where does it say anything about spanking?
Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children
gently?

That's your interpretation!

Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire
world of them.

Hahaha! So Christian don't spank???

See what I mean about you lying.

Yes, I see that you are lying?

No you don't.

The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean
I claim no Christians spank .

Hahaha! What percentage of Christian don't spank, Kane?

Darned if I know. What percentage do spank, Doan?

Got a figure?

Don't ask for the impossible if you really wish to debate, Doan. You've
embarassed yourself for years with that stupid tactic.

Did you read the proclamation of the United Methodist church, Doan?

You do lie so.

Yes, you do lie so! ;-)

You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play
games.

Hahaha! You are projecting again. ;-)

Nope. I continue to argue the issue. You don't.



Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to
accustomed to your sly lying ways.

The proven liar here is YOU!

Nope.

Yup!

Nope.

Yup!


Do you really think he was saying to spank Him?

Where does he "spoke against it"???
In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking?

In all he did and said during his lifetime.

Hahaha! Where?

All quotes I've offered.

Then you are once again showed that you are REALLY STUPID! ;-)

By quoting all the comments of Christ regarding the treatment of
children?

And the Golden Rule. MMMMhhhmmmmm...sure, Doan.

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the
greatest
in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them,
and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like
children,
you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble
like
this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes
one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5"

"Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5

Does that appear to you to be support for spanking?

It said nothing about spanking!
"Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid.

Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID?

Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any
argument against my comments.

The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently?

What has that to do with spanking.?

It's about punishment, STUPID!

Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him?

You tell me!

Nope. YOU tell me. You claim he was punished apparently, or refuse to
answer.

Explain your position.

Or don't, and prove how unethical you are.

Just how stupid are you?

You have shown yourself SO STUPID as not to be able to read a simple
chart!

Non sequitur, and a stupid lying diversion, Doan.

Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for?

He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian
doctrine? Agreed?

Nope.

Than what?

??

By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved?

He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine.

Why, if it's not for punishment?

Exactly the reason as stated.

It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many
spankers, to punish, but to teach.

Hahaha! Showing your stupidity agian. Look it up in the dictionary,
STUPID. Here, let me do it for you:

n.
A number of slaps on the buttocks delivered in rapid succession, as
for punishment.

And there's no other definition, right Doan the liar?

I did not point to a dictionary. I pointed to the fact that posters
here have claimed that spanking is to teach.

Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children?

You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-)
Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were
to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent
acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered.

Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-)

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

So tasering a six-year old is not violent?

What's that got to do with speaking out against violence?

Because tasering is a non-violent??? ;-)

Are you planning to run a series of dodges now using all the possible
modes of violence to keep from having to admit you are wrong?

You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more.

To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-)

I'm afraid that backfired on you just a bit. It's stupid to try and
destract from the issue.

Then YOU ARE STUPID!

Then you admit you think it smart to distract from the issue.

You are then exposed, once more, as the unethical lying sneak you are.
But then, children that are spanked do learn to be sneaky.

You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting
to divert, rather than answer the question asked.

The proven liar here is you!

Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual.

Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-)

No you haven't.

I have done so many times; like exposing your inability to read a simple
char, like exposing your failure to calculate a simple rate. Need more?
;-)

Your proof please.

Even if true, what would be a lie about not reading a chart correctly
and failure to calculate a rate correctly, Doan?

Do you understand the difference between a mistake and a lie?

Do you understand Parables?

I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-)
I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children
was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently
or even harshly toward children.

Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross?

Are you a Christian?

Did I say I was?

Notice the diversion? Are you a Christian?

I've never claimed I was!

Are you a Christian or aren't you?

Afraid to answer, Doan?

The clever master debater? R R R R R R R R

I didn't ask if I said you were, I ask you if you were.

And I said that you are STUPID, just like Chris Dugan did! ;-)

We were discussing a particular issue, not the general character of
each other. We disagreed on foreign policy, remember, liar?

I'm an atheist and I know.

Hahaha! That's funny!

Are you suggesting a atheist can't study religion?

No! I said that was funny, STUPID!

What was funny?

Or have been religious at one time?

Hihihi!

In other words, you are dishonest, and dishonorable and will not debate
fairly.

I see.


Or that an atheist is wrong about religion because he's an atheist?

That's a laught

What's a "laught?" [sic]

I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him.

Then tell me what the reason is?

I did. .

Where?

Earlier in the post.

To show you that
his father is a non-punishing one?

Non sequitur.

Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that.

Then tell me why he died on the cross.

I did. He was not being punished.

Hahaha! So his death was for not???

For not what?

Do you believe he was being punished?

Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank?

That what many christians believe.

And many do not.

How many in term of percent, Kane?

I've no idea. Do you have any idea how many do believe in spanking,
percentage wise? Don't ask for what you cannot produce yourself, Doan.

It's too obvious a dodge.

Are you saying that christians don't
believe in spanking?

Did I say that? Show me where.

Hahaha! You said that Jesus spoke against it!

Yep. Sure did.

You see anywhere were he spoke in favor of it, or in his mentioning of
children that he even hinted at supporting it?

Doan
You stopped here?

Yes, STUPID!

It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it.

You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being
unable to read a simple chart! ;-)

Your stupidity is in misinterpreting and claiming things for charts
that are not included.

It was included, STUPID LIAR!

Touched a tender spot, eh?

"It" was included when you said "charts," the plural?

Brillant, child, brilliant.

Can't deal with what's below here, Doan?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank?

Where did I say Christians don't spank?

How many? The whole world??

I presume Christians live on every continent.

That would be the whole world in normal converstation.

Where did I say Christians don't spank, Doan?

Or are you claiming they all do?

Some do, some don't. You are simply being stupid again.

Hahaha! What percentage of Christians don't spank?

Pointless question, Doan.

You can't produce a percentage, and the proportion is not the argument.


If you have an arguement concerning proportions, then provide your
figure and argue on that point.

I certainly made no argument about proportion.

What we can conclude is that some Christians don't follow their own
scripture.

Hahaha! Scripture according to you?

Nope. Scripture according to the New Testament.

See anywhere, like in the OT, where the beating of children is
mentioned and supported?

What do you think New refers to, The New Testament?

As soon as it inconveniences their bias they resort to the Old
Testament.

The Old Testament is not scripture???

It's not the New Testament.

If I have an old car and replace it with a new car I don't keep the old
car.

Are Christians Jews?

Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?"

Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids?

Do you believe you are raving nutcase that rather than admit you are
wrong, continually project meanings not in evidence?

No. I believe that you are a raving nutcase! ;-)

Your belief reveals your loss of sanity.

Doan

'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12'

That doesn't say, 'Christians are free, of course, to overlook that
when it comes to children.'

Christians that actually practice Christianity don't miss the point as
Sue Lawrence doesn't.

Hahaha! Sue Lawrence is an expert, right? ;-)

More than you. By far. And more than those Christians that cannot
separate themselves from the Old Testament.

To be a Christian one should, logically, follow the precepts of Christ
and His testament, no?

Why would the old testament belief that children are basically bad and
must be whipped and beaten not carry over into the New if it were part
of the new testamony?

No, it's obviously rejected in the NT or you would not see the
quotations of Christ that you do reject violence toward children...in
fact, toward any.

Here are the verses used to support CP, by some Protestants, (as
opposed to Jews)

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that
loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
bullet Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not
thy soul spare for his crying."
bullet Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but
the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
bullet Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou
beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
bullet Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver
his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to
himself bringeth his mother to shame."

All perportedly to be from a collection by Solomon of sayings and his
own parenting style...which we know resulted in the creation a despot
(his son) so vile that his subjects tried to kill him. He had to flee
for his life.

Here is the one NT verse that is sometimes used.

Hebrews 12:6-7: "...the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he
punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline;
God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his
father?"

Notice it moves far away from any mention of rods, or beating?
Discipline and punishment need not be physical.

Of more interest is that the word for 'rod' from the original,
translated, is actually "Shebet," which is also used for 'Shephard's
staff," and 'Kings Sceptor. Neither of which are used for beating.

Doan

You have very little in the way of morals, don't you, Doan?

Kane



Kane


Doan

Kane


Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish
parents to make up their own minds.

You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as
soon as it moved into more proof.


'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them
do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?".

You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a
hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your
own lying kind can see it plainly.

You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates,
who themselves are non-spankers.

That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan.

You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than
to others.

Kane


Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The
younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the
property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between
them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled
to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute
living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place
throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and
hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him
to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself
with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything.
But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired
hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I
will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have
sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called
you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and
went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him
and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and
kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best
one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his
feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and
celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost
and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24

Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child?

Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian?

The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do
to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Are you willing to exclude children from "others?"

And finally ...

I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive
parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim
the need to spank an do so.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven."

Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and
the Bible?

Here's some more for you to contemplate.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little
ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes?

I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical
narrative.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html

... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh
theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8,
Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the
first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine
states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,
Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early
Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the
first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who
refused to do so.

Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this:




1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all
the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary
Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and
James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and
Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and
when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient
to her parents' word.

5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt
beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what
sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the
first rod stroke to her bottom.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the
last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he
said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult
bruised thee with a fresh cut stick?

11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more.

Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod"
anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image
of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image
of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional
image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a
rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ...

Kane


Doan

Greegor wrote:
What religion were your four parents, Kane?

What made you decide to be an Atheist?

It sounded better than 'hypocrite'.


0:- wrote:
http://cathys-miracle-place.blogspot...iscipline.html

joe wrote:
Greegor wrote:
What religion were your four parents, Kane?

What made you decide to be an Atheist?

It sounded better than 'hypocrite'.

Your point?





0:- wrote:
http://cathys-miracle-place.blogspot...iscipline.html