One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin

All the "Gang of Three" does is make accusations---and ad homs (simply means
argumentation by throwing S*** at those holding opposite points of view).

That's about the only facts and figures which they use to defeat our usually
factual posts.

Oh, now Foster Care by CPS totals 20B.

AND EVERY STATE FAILED AUDITS OF ITS CPS BUREAUCRACY.


Doan sent in:

Subject: Can anyone trust Chris?
From: Doan
Date: 6/12/2004 8:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:



On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On 7 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

Kane wrote:
: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:27:34 -0700, Doan wrote:

:
:LOL! Singapore have a youth crime problem? Give us the rate and
:compare that to Sweden, shall we?

: Already did, weeks ago.

This is par for the course with Doan. He will keep making the same
"errors" over and over again, with a waiting period in between, so that
yet another new crop of transient lurkers will get the impression that
he
has actual substantive arguments to make.

This would be easy to prove. A simple google search would turn up
what Kane0 claimed. Come on, Chris! Here your chance to prove how
"honest" Kane0 is. I'll give you ten days. If you can't, then I
have to conclude that Kane is a liar and you are in cahoot! :-)

Time is ticking away. Can Chris really be wrong about the
"never-spanked" Kane0 again? :-)

Doan


Not long ago, Chris Dugan made this charge against me:

"Doan is a con man. I know that is a harsh thing to say about
someone, and it is not something I would say about the vast majority of
people who post as prospankers on these threads. The vast majority of
prospankers are honest individuals. Doan is an exception to that rule."

No ad-hom there, right? :-) Here is your chance, Chris! Prove to
everyone on this newsgroup that I am a "con man". You are good
at making accusation but can you back it up? Coward!

Doan

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On 7 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

Kane wrote:
: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:27:34 -0700, Doan wrote:

:
:LOL! Singapore have a youth crime problem? Give us the rate and
:compare that to Sweden, shall we?

: Already did, weeks ago.

This is par for the course with Doan. He will keep making the same
"errors" over and over again, with a waiting period in between, so that
yet another new crop of transient lurkers will get the impression that he
has actual substantive arguments to make.

This would be easy to prove. A simple google search would turn up
what Kane0 claimed. Come on, Chris! Here your chance to prove how
"honest" Kane0 is. I'll give you ten days. If you can't, then I
have to conclude that Kane is a liar and you are in cahoot! :-)

Time is ticking away. Can Chris really be wrong about the
"never-spanked" Kane0 again? :-)

Doan

Still nothing from Kane0 nor from Chris! Time is running out. :-)

Doan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doan"
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin


On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On 7 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

Kane wrote:
: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:27:34 -0700, Doan wrote:

:
:LOL! Singapore have a youth crime problem? Give us the rate and
:compare that to Sweden, shall we?

: Already did, weeks ago.

This is par for the course with Doan. He will keep making the same
"errors" over and over again, with a waiting period in between, so that
yet another new crop of transient lurkers will get the impression that he
has actual substantive arguments to make.

This would be easy to prove. A simple google search would turn up
what Kane0 claimed. Come on, Chris! Here your chance to prove how
"honest" Kane0 is. I'll give you ten days. If you can't, then I
have to conclude that Kane is a liar and you are in cahoot! :-)

Time is ticking away. Can Chris really be wrong about the
"never-spanked" Kane0 again? :-)

Doan

Still nothing from Kane0 nor from Chris! Time is running out. :-)

Beg your pardon. I answered you in

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...gle.com&rnum=3

Refering to the Singapore information that I had supplied even
earlier.

It's obvious you are stuck once again, as you always go to nitpicking
some inconsequential issue to avoid the facts: That paragon of law and
order through the brutal practice of caning has, by it's own police
department's admission, a youth crime problem.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...gle.com&rnum=2

I pointed out in the above post exactly what you are doing right now.
You want to argue about a time span or dates of posts and content ....
anything rather than respond to the facts I supplied you months ago
from the Singapore government website and the police statement
concerning their youth crime problem.

And I directed you to take a look for yourself, which apparently, now
that you are off on one of your diversionary "I DOUBLE DARE YOU"
sillinesses, I have to post again and ask you once again, as I did the
first time I posted it to use it to defend your claim that Singapore
crime is down.

I provided the URL below in my message,

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...le.com&rnum=11
or http://tinyurl.com/3cnq7

Here is the URL I provided:

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030220af.htm

Where, if you had gone to look instead of continuing your usual lying
and dodging you would have found the page opening with:


"Singapore crime rate worsens in 2002

Agence France Presse
February 20, 2003
SINGAPORE


CRIME worsened in Singapore in 2002 as reported offences rose almost
10 percent, most noticeably in juvenile crimes, Singapore police said
Thursday, Feb 20.
Figures showed 31,971 cases were reported last year, up 9.95 per cent
from 29,077 in 2001."


Notice that even with CP youth crime is up nearly 10 percent in one
year? Tell you anything about the use of CP as a deterent or a
teaching tool?

Naw, of course not.

You seem to not want to really discuss an issue YOU brought up, the
difference in the crime rate for Sweden vs Singapore.

Now why is that I wonder....R R R R R

Spanked children frequently grow to be cowards and bullies.

Do you wish to defend Singapore's use of CP as being responsible for
it youth crime rate, or not?


Doan


Yes, you are that alright. On both sides, to a crisp.

Kane

I don't normally top post, but I wanted to warn the reader about the
mindless academic bull**** posing as science that follows:

Chris wrote in message ...
Ivan Gowch wrote:
: Health India: Spanking kids has adverse effect on their
: academic performance

: WELLINGTON, June 2(ANI) - The Otago University's Children's
: Issues Centre has revealed that physical punishment of
: children is associated with anti-social behaviour and poorer
: performance at school.

: According to the New Zealand Herald, the center was
: commissioned by the Office of the Children's Commissioner to
: survey over 300 international research articles.

: "The literature is quite consistent in supporting the conclusion
: that there is an association between the use of parental corporal
: punishment and the development of anti-social behaviour in
: children," lead researcher Professor Anne Smith was quoted as
: saying.

Politically, spanking remains popular, although its approval rating
in public opinion polls (USA) has slipped slowly but inexorably downward
in recent years. But scientifically speaking, it is dead in the water.
After decades of research, no one has yet demonstrated any evidence of any
measurable form of long term benefit from spanking. And even when
ideological prospankers in academia perform studies rigorous enough to
pass peer review and receive approval for publication, they end up
replicating the same evidence of long term negative effects which the
other researchers found.

: Effects of smacking included:

: - aggression, disruptive, delinquent and anti-social behaviour,
: violent offending, and low peer status;

: - poorer academic achievement including lower IQ, poorer
: performance on achievement tests, poorer adjustment to school,
: more attention deficit-like symptoms, and poorer self-esteem;

: - diminished quality of parent-child relationships, with children
: likely to be less securely attached to parents, and to feel
: fearful or hostile towards them;

: - increased depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and
: psychiatric disorders.

It really should come as no surprise that hitting and hurting
children has numerous long term negative effects. After all, would anyone
be surprised to learn that adults living with 15 foot tall people who hit
them experienced negative psychological sequelae as a result? Why should
it be any different for little children in a comparable situation?

: Prof Smith said one of the problems highlighted by the review was
: the lack of agreement over when physical punishment stepped over
: the line and became abuse.

In this context, "drawing the line" is less important than
demonstrating a dose/response effect: the more frequent the hitting and
the more severe the hitting, the greater the likelihood of measurable long
term negative effects.

What emerges from the research is a picture similar to health effects
of low level radiation. There is no "safe level" of disciplinary hitting
and pain infliction on children.

: The research also suggested principles of effective discipline
: including:

: - parental warmth, involvement and affectionate relationships;

Children want their relationships with the significant adults in
their lives to be harmonious. Spanking may give an adult more power, but
in the process it sacrifices influence. Adults in affectionate
nonpunitive relationships with children may have less coercive power than
spankers do, but they can have a great deal more influence on the child.

: - clear communication and messages to children, which are
: age-appropriate, about why their behaviour is acceptable or
: not;

: - providing fair, reasonable and clearly defined rules,
: boundaries and expectations for behaviour;

The most effective rules are the ones which parents and children
create together in a mutually respectful way, so that everybody wins,
rather than rules handed down from above accompanied by threats of
punishment for breaking them.

Chris

See? I warned you.-Jitney

I don't normally top post, but I wanted to, assuming you arent just
another of the many trolls that pass through here with nothing relly
to say and their genitals firmly in hand, you might want to think
about this a bit more before you babble your babble.

"jitney" wrote in message om...
I don't normally top post, but I wanted to warn the reader about the
mindless academic bull**** posing as science that follows:

Let's see now. They found in a survey of materials on the subject that
spanking had adverse effects...in fact quite the opposite of the
claimed outcomes spankers cite.

Spanking compulsives, which you all are of course, seem to be
perfectly happy swallowing the extremely unscientific publications of
cops that are found even in their own documents, to be lying or at
best, forgetting what they just wrote, and folks with advanced degrees
in child development that advocate children be treated as "the vicious
plotting enemy" and when in dachshund form, dangerous violent
criminals pooches that need to be vanquished. I find the analogy to
parenting as war very interesting.

I get the feeling that no matter what is published, as long as it
serves your bias, it's mindful enough, academic enough, and free of
bull**** enough for you.

Are you Okay?

R R R R

So, small passenger conveyance from SE Asia, give us your take on why
children need whuppin', beating, switching, whipping, strapping, neck
pinching, ear pulling, and all the other sundry pain applications you
brave and heroic battlers against youthful viciousness. Why don'tcha,
eh?




Chris wrote in message ...
Ivan Gowch wrote:
: Health India: Spanking kids has adverse effect on their
: academic performance

: WELLINGTON, June 2(ANI) - The Otago University's Children's
: Issues Centre has revealed that physical punishment of
: children is associated with anti-social behaviour and poorer
: performance at school.

: According to the New Zealand Herald, the center was
: commissioned by the Office of the Children's Commissioner to
: survey over 300 international research articles.

: "The literature is quite consistent in supporting the conclusion
: that there is an association between the use of parental corporal
: punishment and the development of anti-social behaviour in
: children," lead researcher Professor Anne Smith was quoted as
: saying.

Politically, spanking remains popular, although its approval rating
in public opinion polls (USA) has slipped slowly but inexorably downward
in recent years. But scientifically speaking, it is dead in the water.
After decades of research, no one has yet demonstrated any evidence of any
measurable form of long term benefit from spanking. And even when
ideological prospankers in academia perform studies rigorous enough to
pass peer review and receive approval for publication, they end up
replicating the same evidence of long term negative effects which the
other researchers found.

: Effects of smacking included:

: - aggression, disruptive, delinquent and anti-social behaviour,
: violent offending, and low peer status;

: - poorer academic achievement including lower IQ, poorer
: performance on achievement tests, poorer adjustment to school,
: more attention deficit-like symptoms, and poorer self-esteem;

: - diminished quality of parent-child relationships, with children
: likely to be less securely attached to parents, and to feel
: fearful or hostile towards them;

: - increased depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and
: psychiatric disorders.

It really should come as no surprise that hitting and hurting
children has numerous long term negative effects. After all, would anyone
be surprised to learn that adults living with 15 foot tall people who hit
them experienced negative psychological sequelae as a result? Why should
it be any different for little children in a comparable situation?

: Prof Smith said one of the problems highlighted by the review was
: the lack of agreement over when physical punishment stepped over
: the line and became abuse.

In this context, "drawing the line" is less important than
demonstrating a dose/response effect: the more frequent the hitting and
the more severe the hitting, the greater the likelihood of measurable long
term negative effects.

What emerges from the research is a picture similar to health effects
of low level radiation. There is no "safe level" of disciplinary hitting
and pain infliction on children.

: The research also suggested principles of effective discipline
: including:

: - parental warmth, involvement and affectionate relationships;

Children want their relationships with the significant adults in
their lives to be harmonious. Spanking may give an adult more power, but
in the process it sacrifices influence. Adults in affectionate
nonpunitive relationships with children may have less coercive power than
spankers do, but they can have a great deal more influence on the child.

: - clear communication and messages to children, which are
: age-appropriate, about why their behaviour is acceptable or
: not;

: - providing fair, reasonable and clearly defined rules,
: boundaries and expectations for behaviour;

The most effective rules are the ones which parents and children
create together in a mutually respectful way, so that everybody wins,
rather than rules handed down from above accompanied by threats of
punishment for breaking them.

Chris

See? I warned you.-Jitney

So they did a survey of the available research material. Would you
prefer Proverbs and lying cops that claim the kids they arrest haven't
been spanked, when in fact the cop himself notes later they HAVE?

The folks that advocate hitting tiny children at 9 months basing their
belief on their religion might be more to your liking.

Or do you lean toward the other academics who agree with you: the
great dachshund fighters, and small boy neck pinchers of the world?

Any excuse to take out your fear and loathing of yourself, taught by
your parents to you, on other helpless little humans.

See yah, small passenger convieance found in SE Asia.

Kane

a123sdg321

On 17 Jun 2004, Kane wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doan"
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin


On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Doan wrote:

On 7 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

Kane wrote:
: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:27:34 -0700, Doan wrote:

:
:LOL! Singapore have a youth crime problem? Give us the rate and
:compare that to Sweden, shall we?

: Already did, weeks ago.

This is par for the course with Doan. He will keep making the same
"errors" over and over again, with a waiting period in between, so that
yet another new crop of transient lurkers will get the impression that he
has actual substantive arguments to make.

This would be easy to prove. A simple google search would turn up
what Kane0 claimed. Come on, Chris! Here your chance to prove how
"honest" Kane0 is. I'll give you ten days. If you can't, then I
have to conclude that Kane is a liar and you are in cahoot! :-)

Time is ticking away. Can Chris really be wrong about the
"never-spanked" Kane0 again? :-)

Doan

Still nothing from Kane0 nor from Chris! Time is running out. :-)

Beg your pardon. I answered you in

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...gle.com&rnum=3

Nothing that compare Sweden and Singapore!

Refering to the Singapore information that I had supplied even
earlier.

It's obvious you are stuck once again, as you always go to nitpicking
some inconsequential issue to avoid the facts: That paragon of law and
order through the brutal practice of caning has, by it's own police
department's admission, a youth crime problem.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...gle.com&rnum=2

Nothing that compare Sweden and Singapore!

I pointed out in the above post exactly what you are doing right now.
You want to argue about a time span or dates of posts and content ....
anything rather than respond to the facts I supplied you months ago
from the Singapore government website and the police statement
concerning their youth crime problem.

And I directed you to take a look for yourself, which apparently, now
that you are off on one of your diversionary "I DOUBLE DARE YOU"
sillinesses, I have to post again and ask you once again, as I did the
first time I posted it to use it to defend your claim that Singapore
crime is down.

I provided the URL below in my message,

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...le.com&rnum=11
or http://tinyurl.com/3cnq7

Nothing that compare Sweden and Singapore!

Here is the URL I provided:

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030220af.htm

Where, if you had gone to look instead of continuing your usual lying
and dodging you would have found the page opening with:


"Singapore crime rate worsens in 2002

Agence France Presse
February 20, 2003
SINGAPORE


CRIME worsened in Singapore in 2002 as reported offences rose almost
10 percent, most noticeably in juvenile crimes, Singapore police said
Thursday, Feb 20.
Figures showed 31,971 cases were reported last year, up 9.95 per cent
from 29,077 in 2001."


"Despite the jump, a police statement said the figures were the second
lowest of the past 15 years."

Like I said, you have to be STUPID or a very BAD LIAR!

Notice that even with CP youth crime is up nearly 10 percent in one
year? Tell you anything about the use of CP as a deterent or a
teaching tool?

Naw, of course not.

You seem to not want to really discuss an issue YOU brought up, the
difference in the crime rate for Sweden vs Singapore.

Now why is that I wonder....R R R R R

Spanked children frequently grow to be cowards and bullies.

And "never-spanked" kids grow up to be like you, hiding behind fake emails
and hurling insults like "smelly-****" and "**** you, Chris"! ;-)

Do you wish to defend Singapore's use of CP as being responsible for
it youth crime rate, or not?

You meant the "SECOND LOWEST of the past 15 YEARS"??? ;-)


Doan


Yes, you are that alright. On both sides, to a crisp.

Kane0

"Never-spanked" and 9 less than a dog! ;-)

Doan

See? I warned you.-Jitney

So they did a survey of the available research material. Would you
prefer Proverbs and lying cops that claim the kids they arrest haven't
been spanked, when in fact the cop himself notes later they HAVE?

The folks that advocate hitting tiny children at 9 months basing their
belief on their religion might be more to your liking.

Or do you lean toward the other academics who agree with you: the
great dachshund fighters, and small boy neck pinchers of the world?

Any excuse to take out your fear and loathing of yourself, taught by
your parents to you, on other helpless little humans.

See yah, small passenger convieance found in SE Asia.

Kane

Sorry for the wait, I have a life outside the computer room.
And I'll ignore the ad hominems, unlike Godless academic eggheads like
you, I don't look down on religious people, or people who work for a
living, whether it means driving a taxi, or some other honest way of
making a living.
But I do think that the practical experience of ordinary people is a
useful guide to everyday living, including the raising of children.
The people reading this thread who use corporal punishment as a
reinforcement to admonition and lectures know its real utility. They
don't spank for cruelty, they love their children and want them to
grow up to be responsible adults. Occasionally, force is required to
have an otherwise foolish and disobedient child take you seriously.
Now, I'm not trying to convince you or that Walz fool, I think you are
beyond help. I just want parents to know that it is okay to rely on
their common sense, and they can safely ignore prattling babblers like
you.
BTW, if you want to maintain your reputation as an intellectual, you
should work on that spelling problem you have.-Jitney

On 21 Jun 2004 00:09:39 -0700, (jitney) wrote:


See? I warned you.-Jitney

So they did a survey of the available research material. Would you
prefer Proverbs and lying cops that claim the kids they arrest
haven't
been spanked, when in fact the cop himself notes later they HAVE?

The folks that advocate hitting tiny children at 9 months basing
their
belief on their religion might be more to your liking.

Or do you lean toward the other academics who agree with you: the
great dachshund fighters, and small boy neck pinchers of the world?

Any excuse to take out your fear and loathing of yourself, taught
by
your parents to you, on other helpless little humans.

See yah, small passenger convieance found in SE Asia.

Kane

Sorry for the wait, I have a life outside the computer room.

Beating children?

And I'll ignore the ad hominems, unlike Godless academic eggheads
like
you, I don't look down on religious people, or people who work for a
living, whether it means driving a taxi, or some other honest way of
making a living.

Odd. You opened that sentence saying, "And I'll ignore the ad
hominems." Then you proceeded to them like the champ you are. R R R

Not only that, but by lying as well. Nothing I said demeans those that
work for a living.

And I don't look down on religious people. Only the ones that misuse
their religious faith to do harm. Seems only right.

But I do think that the practical experience of ordinary people is a
useful guide to everyday living, including the raising of children.

You bet. That's exactly what I base my claims on. My own and the
experience of others that do not and did not punish their children, or
learned to stop it.

The people reading this thread who use corporal punishment as a
reinforcement to admonition and lectures know its real utility.

So's my hammer. A real utility that is.

But it's lousy for transplanting Petunias.

They
don't spank for cruelty,

Wanna bet? They get great relief out of torturing their child and
calling it something else and justifying it. I think they cum in their
drawers, some of them.

they love their children

I "love" my wife. I don't beat her for any reason.

and want them to
grow up to be responsible adults.

Yep. Women and slaves were beaten for the same reasons. "Moral" ones.

Which of course boiled down to, when it was exposed for what it was,
morally indefensible acts of penury and cruelty...which in the end
were nothing but fear based cowardice and abject laziness.

Occasionally, force is required to
have an otherwise foolish and disobedient child take you seriously.

Funny, I can't find among the families where punishment isn't used
those foolish and disobedient children.

I do find those that don't yet know how to behave in adult social
situations. And I do find children that as yet do not know the adult
acceptable ways to get their needs and wants met. But they learn
extraordinarily fast without unwanted side effects when NOT humiliated
and injured by the stupid around them that call themselves parents.

Now, I'm not trying to convince you or that Walz fool, I think you
are
beyond help.

I don't recall asking for help, though from time to time I might have
from others. Certainly not those that advocate the assualt of children
on "moral" grounds.

I just want parents to know that it is okay to rely on
their common sense,

I'm overwhelmed by all the examples of "common sense" that turn out so
well....r r r r r .

and they can safely ignore prattling babblers like
you.

I'm sure they are delighted to hear that, and that you won't use ad
homs like us godless eggheads. R R R R

You're about as credible as a pile of steaming ****, pal..

BTW, if you want to maintain your reputation as an intellectual, you
should work on that spelling problem you have.-Jitney

Not having tried to establish such a reputation I guess I can let that
pass. And usenet is NOT a graduate seminar, so I'm not going to worry
too much about spelling or typos or being admonished by an obvious
troll.

Yer a group skipper with something to say about everything, mostly in
the vein you opened here. And really nothing of substance to offer. I
don't see a debate or contribution from you.

No bottom, as we used to say about horses that could't run. Lack of
courage and commitment, but a lot of flailing leg action.

Why don't you run along little child, and annoy those that are fooled
by you more easily?

This is where the adults are. Well, a few of them. R R R R

Kane

BTW, if you want to maintain your reputation as an intellectual, you
should work on that spelling problem you have.-Jitney

Not having tried to establish such a reputation I guess I can let that
pass. And usenet is NOT a graduate seminar, so I'm not going to worry
too much about spelling or typos or being admonished by an obvious
troll.(snip lots of blather)

Spelling is not taught in graduate school, Kane, you should have
learned it in grade school. But perhaps your parents didn't discipline
you enough that you would do your homework. Be that as it may, I was
trying to be helpful. But I actually prefer that you keep up the slop
writing, it exposes you for the ignoramus that you are. FYI, calling
someone a troll does not win an argument or change anybody's mind. But
it does provide you with a convenient way to keep your mind
closed.-Jitney

On 22 Jun 2004 00:59:11 -0700, (jitney) wrote:

BTW, if you want to maintain your reputation as an intellectual,
you
should work on that spelling problem you have.-Jitney

Not having tried to establish such a reputation I guess I can let
that
pass. And usenet is NOT a graduate seminar, so I'm not going to worry
too much about spelling or typos or being admonished by an obvious
troll.(snip lots of blather)

Spelling is not taught in graduate school, Kane, you should have
learned it in grade school. But perhaps your parents didn't
discipline
you enough that you would do your homework. Be that as it may, I was
trying to be helpful. But I actually prefer that you keep up the slop
writing, it exposes you for the ignoramus that you are. FYI, calling
someone a troll does not win an argument or change anybody's mind.
But
it does provide you with a convenient way to keep your mind
closed.-Jitney

Okay, small human conveyance used in asia, tell us more about your
arguments in favor of spanking.

Show us you are NOT a troll.

As for spelling, as I said this isn't a medium for publication, so I
do not correct spelling and typos.

You may make anything of that you wish, but it doesn't change that you
have contributed zero to the debate. Rather typical of a spanker
though. They come through here periodically exhibiting their
psychological crippling from their own childhood, promoting and
advocating for the next generations so they won't feel so isolated in
their damaged psyches. Then they wander away, or decend into Droaning.

So, what you got in defense of spanking, Conveyance? Besides limp ad
homs a 5th grader could come up with.

Kane