Where IS that blasted LINE?

The first experience a child has with abuse is when they are hit by
their protector, who up until that moment was believed to be loving,
supportive, and value the child.

The next experience is when that same adult teaches the child to
suppress their natural fear of pain.

The LINE, is artificially created, most abusive, to the eyes of the
beholder, but never to the child internally, at that point where they
child has their denial of fear and justifiable rage at being attacked
by their so called protector....their parent or caregiver.

The damage is done, and continues to be done, but now is carefully
hidden away, festering. And the world as it is now is the proof that
this condition of hidden rage and denial of childhood pain exists and
comes back to haunt the society of the child.

Lingering Effects of Child Abuse and Neglect
12 Jun 2005

It has long been known that childhood abuse, neglect, or the loss of a
parent are associated with adult psychiatric disorders. Now,
researchers are discovering how early experiences affect a person's
psychological and physical health. The June issue of the Harvard Mental
Health Letter reports that childhood trauma and loss can cause
prolonged hypersensitivity to stress by upsetting the brain's
regulation of stress responses.
..................more at the link below:


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=26000

Well... maybe, if this is true, CPS should sit up, take notice, and
recognize causing a child to lose their parents is serious business.

The article does notice that the kind of stress-parental loss, neglect, or
abuse-may also make a difference. Seems to me their are kids who don't
recognize neglect and/or abuse in the same light as CPS and being removed by
'authority' creates problems than can later be blamed on the parent.

bobb

bobb wrote:
Well... maybe, if this is true, CPS should sit up, take notice, and
recognize causing a child to lose their parents is serious business.

They do. Workers learn this at their first training. It's a mantra
throughout their professional life, as it is for foster's throughout
their volunteering career.

The article does notice that the kind of stress-parental loss, neglect, or
abuse-may also make a difference.

Yes, of course. I've never seen a single training or information on
this subject that did NOT do so. None every claimed there was no
adverse effects from removing a child from their parents.

That's why it's so laughable that you jokers continue to pretend it's
the rule, rather than the exceptions you are bound to find in a ng such
as this.

Seems to me their are kids who don't
recognize neglect and/or abuse in the same light as CPS and being removed by
'authority' creates problems than can later be blamed on the parent.

No, in fact the opposite is the rule. The child RARELY blames their
parent even if the parent did horrendous even life threatening injury
to the child. That's the nature of the parent child relationship. In
all my years interacting with so very many people I got ONE person ONE,
that identified his parents as the source of his problems in life, and
his adoptive parents as the source of his healing...and his gratitude
for CPS giving him the good life he enjoyed growing up, and his success
as an adult.

HE WAS LIVID AT THE IDEA ONE WOULD NOT TELL A CHILD HIS PARENTS HAD
FAILED HIM, but that's the way it goes. Children are NOT told their
parents are bad.

I sometimes look at that memory of that man (he made this a very public
statement) and think maybe HE'S the healthiest, and society may be
doing damage to children to continue the fiction that the abusive
parents was "okay" and couldn't help it because of "drugs" or "mental
illness" or "domestic violence" etc.

Many adults finally come to mourn the pain of childhood with an abusive
parent, and darned if they don't have to go through the rage stage to
heal.

But then I no longer, and havent' for years, worked with the child
population, but I can tell you that when I did it was considered
professional malpractice to bad mouth parents to the child, not matter
WHAT the parent had done to them.

bobb

Could bobber the swift be learning? We can only hope.

0:-

Kane:
You're STILL playing with this LINE obsession?
Not very creative are you?

You think you are a master propagandist or what?

The LAW defines when the LINE is crossed.
It is a legal construct only.

You had your WALDO on this long ago, but
obsessively you start new threads titled
Where's Waldo...

What YOU think is witty propaganda is not.

You start new threads as if you have severe
ADD and can't stay on a subject thread, but
it seems that you think you gain some sort of
Public Relations advantage by pretending you
are mentally disconnected from the old thread.
(Seems like a CULT type of mental process)

If a person looks past that aspect, you appear
to be repeating a question that was already
effectively and truthfully answered.
(Also a CULT type of mental process)

You "hash something out" interactively, but
then throw out everything you don't want to
hear and pretend that it was not hashed out.
You even get it hooked up to a web based
commercial site looking for content, but
conveniently without any context that nails you
to a tree.

Just keep humming your mantra...

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
TOOLS
Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]

Greegor wrote:
Kane:
You're STILL playing with this LINE obsession?

Well, considering that no one has answered it adequately for the safety
of the child, yes, I'm still having that particular "obsession" and
will until parents stop claiming they are the "best judge" of where
that line is.

You will see a wonderful little article I posted a link to on this very
subject...of how difficult it is to tell what your child's internal
state of mind and condition is.

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

Not very creative are you?

Important matters don't require a great deal of creativity, but I
thought I've approached this issue from so many angles now, to bring
attention to it, that your accusation is empty and hollow, like your
head.

You think you are a master propagandist or what?

My name, though four letters, is not "Doug."

The LAW defines when the LINE is crossed.

Notice that even YOU had to use, in YOUR argument, the past tense.

It is a legal construct only.

Yes, I know that. That is NOT the claim of the parents that have come
here, nor Doan who supports them making this choice, but rather that
they have some magical or intellectual "parent superiority" to make
this choice and NOT injure the child.

The legal definition only works AFTER the damage is done. Hardly useful
to a new parent, or one trying to decide if their child is up to the
hitting today, now is it?

Those who claim they LOVE their child, and hit them only out of love
and concern, seem to not be thinking about that at all, when they
hit....not thinking about whether or not they will "cross the line,"
and they cannot, of course...because until it's crossed (and sometimes
even then...brrrrr) they cannot tell where it is.

You had your WALDO on this long ago,

I am not sure your reference is accurate. Please explain.

but
obsessively you start new threads titled
Where's Waldo...

Ah, I see. Yes, I do. And no, no one has provided a "Waldo" as yet.
Your attempt, with the legal definition, is a vapid and empty when
attempting to actually address The Question as I asked it, as Doan's
empty rattlining and spastic monkey dance responses.

No, greegor. The question directly addressed the claim of some parents
that they KNOW where that line is and have a right to hit up to that
line. I merely asked how they know before they cross it.

What YOU think is witty propaganda is not.

Sometimes I'm witty and sometimes I'm more deadly serious. YOU get to
enjoy either and guess which is my intent this time.

You start new threads as if you have severe
ADD

Please explain.

and can't stay on a subject thread,

Mmmm...greegor, don't look now, but if one wants to move from the
subject thread the standard protocol is to...honest now...really...I'm
not kidding, START A NEW FUGGERING THREAD.

Unlike YOU that wanders repeatedly away from the thread to try and make
the subject about YOU, when it isn't, I know to leave the thread if I
wish to discuss something else.

but
it seems that you think you gain some sort of
Public Relations advantage by pretending you
are mentally disconnected from the old thread.
(Seems like a CULT type of mental process)

Well, if we are discussing say ritual abuse, and I wish to discuss The
Line in hitting and spanking, I'd hardly be a decent respectful poster
if I just took off on it without good reason. So, I, start, a, new,
thread.

In fact, what seems to be happening here, 0:- is that YOU are going
off on a tangent that might well deserve a new thread.

We are NOT discussing the subject line at this time:

"Where IS that blasted LINE?" Now are we?

If a person looks past that aspect, you appear
to be repeating a question that was already
effectively and truthfully answered.

No, it's never been effectively and truthfully answered. It's been
continually lied about, the actual question as asked carefully avoided.
All kinds of unrelated answers have been sloppily tarted up and thrown
is as they they meant something.

They have been, all of them, classic dodges, except those that come
closer, even by a bit, to the truth.....there is NO SUCH LINE, until
it's been crossed.

The physics alone define it as unanswerable before the fact.

Here are just some of the issues a parent must face, or be lying in his
or her claim that they "know best where the line is for their child:"

1 - how hard to hit ( you got a spankometer to determine speed, mass,
impact?)

2 - what to hit with (switch, board, shoe, rope, hand -- front or back
--)

3 - how many swats per session

4 - how often (intervals)

5 - the child's state of mind at the time

6 - the child's physical condition at the time

7 - if they are immobile or might move and get themselves hit in a more
vulnerable even dangerous spot

8 - where to hit

9 - in alternative CP, like "hot saucing" the questions mount even
higher.

In other words, dummy, I'm quite aware the answer is "There IS no Line"
but on the exceedingly rare chance I'm wrong, it's only fair that I ask
this question so that spankers have the opportunity to prove me wrong,
and defend their practice of hitting children and calling it loving.

(Also a CULT type of mental process)

No, in fact the insistence, in the fact of simple facts, such as my
list above that spanking can be so controlled as to not cross that line
and the parent has that knowledge and skill is what is cult line mental
processing.

The idea that children learn to do anything but obey out of fear by
being hit is what is CULT mental processing. And this is one cult that
needs destroying. Either by those practicing the horrific betrayal that
spanking is do so voluntarily, or by the force of law.

You "hash something out" interactively, but
then throw out everything you don't want to
hear and pretend that it was not hashed out.

Please provide some examples of Douggie behavior of that kind to me, if
you don't mind. I'd like to see what I've thrown out on this question
of The Line.

You even get it hooked up to a web based
commercial site looking for content,

Which commercial site are you referring to?
And what indicates to you they are looking for content?

but
conveniently without any context that nails you
to a tree.

And I have no Christ complex. I think you, with your claim the state of
Iowa is out to get you might have some problem in that area though.

That, by the way, was classically bobber the swift in obtuseness. "but
conveniently without any context that nails you to a tree?"

Want to explain? I'm sure it's witty and clever as hell. I'm just
unable to fathom it.

Just keep humming your mantra...

You can count on me. As long as this ng is here, and I am able, and the
question is unresolved, you will see me here, asking this and similar
questions: "Where IS that blasted LINE?"

When parents can answer it, and the answer is to the question as I
asked it, which you can find by googling, and it shows that parents do
indeed have this knowledge and powerful intellect and self control,
I'll leave here in shame.

I have a funny feeling you'll be seeing me here for a very long time.

Lemme put it this way, little coward. You ****s just want to hit kids.


0:-

Where is the rest of the story?

The APA also put one out that 1/4 of all Americans are mentally ill.

The BEEF COUNCIL says their meat is free of BST and
mad cow.

The Blueberry Association preaches the health benefits
of chemicals found in blueberries.

Why WOULDN'T the psychologists like to promote
the urgent NEED for their own profession? Duh?

CPS agencies are constantly seeking money to
expand. Big deal.

Defense Contractors always have "cost overruns" beyond
what they won the bid for. Is this news?

Kane:
Even the mentally ill need to conform.
If 1/4 of all US adults are undiagnosed mentally ill, then
maybe spanking is what made them CONFORM to
civilized society so they could pass?

If so, then spanking has worked WONDERS compared
to the ineffectual mental health INDUSTRY!

That's a better success rate than they have!

Greegor wrote:
Where is the rest of the story?

The APA also put one out that 1/4 of all Americans are mentally ill.

I think they underestimate a bit...but then I could be biased by the
company I keep. 0:-


The BEEF COUNCIL says their meat is free of BST and
mad cow.

That is not what they say.

The Blueberry Association preaches the health benefits
of chemicals found in blueberries.

Yes, I think they are accurate. I have a great many blueberry bushes in
fact. Gourmet varieties, not he common commercial kinds. Ever see a
blueberry the size of a cherry, and tangy and sweet?

Why WOULDN'T the psychologists like to promote
the urgent NEED for their own profession? Duh?

Because they have more business than they can handle, but they are
professionally obligated to point out the truth about mental health
from studies.

Do you really think psychologists are short of clients? R R R R R ....

CPS agencies are constantly seeking money to
expand. Big deal.

It's natural given the horrendous shortfall they have operated under.
CPS is the stepchild of state government. I've been in all kinds of
state offices, and I can see the extreme disparity between say a liquor
commission, or department of transportation office, and a CPS office.
It's criminal. The latter gets old run down buildings under lease that
owners will not honor without threat of suit. Tattered carpets,
indifferent contracted janitorial services. Low rated computer systems
compared to the state parks system or others I've mentioned above.

It's a joke.

The public is adamant they get their booze, and their roads, and
they'll pay for the privelege (gas taxes, and liqour taxes often go
directly to those agencies to fund them) while they will scream "do
something about the children" but will NOT allocate adequate funding to
actually do much at all.

Defense Contractors always have "cost overruns" beyond
what they won the bid for. Is this news?

Not at all. CPS does not bid. They do though, have the equivalent of
cost overruns.

A dip in the economy, child abuse goes up quickly. In a few weeks in
fact. While budgets are figured usually on a two year cycle. Legilators
will tend to look at the lowest cost times and use them to calculate
budgets, ignoring that the population is growing, and that their state
may be having a down turn economically that will get worse.

At least ignoring when it comes to child protection.

Kane:
Even the mentally ill need to conform.


I didn't say that.

If 1/4 of all US adults are undiagnosed mentally ill, then

I didn't say this either.

maybe spanking is what made them CONFORM to
civilized society so they could pass?

I don't recall saying that.

If so, then spanking has worked WONDERS compared
to the ineffectual mental health INDUSTRY!

Adn I certainly didn't say that!

That's a better success rate than they have!

Why did you lead that paragraph with "Kane:" my signature?

That was YOUR babbling.

And no, you haven't proven any such claim; that "spanking is what made
them CONFORM to civilized society so they could pass."

What kind of sick **** is that?

Much of the mental illness I saw in children were tracable to their
treatment at the hands of their parents. We had them all examined
neurologically, and we KNEW if any kids had psychiatri, as opposed to
psychological disorders, and we referred them on to proper treatment
facilities for psychiatric cases.

Which of those two do you intend spanking into "sane" behavior, and
conforming to society, greegor?

0:-|

"Pop" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
TOOLS
Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]


Hmmm... I've not known of many 14 year olds getting spanked. As I think of
it, I do know a number of 14 years that probably didn't get spanked enough.

bobb

bobb wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
TOOLS
Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]


Hmmm... I've not known of many 14 year olds getting spanked.

14 was the average onset age...in other words, when it was detected.
There was no difference in the psychology of the child, from birth up,
bobber. All the potential and vulnerabilities was already present, and
you want to start spanking them how early?

As I think of
it, I do know a number of 14 years that probably didn't get spanked enough.

Oh, you mean spanking didn't work, so beatings were in order, eh?

I've known thousands of kids that were not spanked and not ONE, bobber,
that turned out bad. NOT ONE.

bobb

Many now are raising their children without spanking....it's like they
never heard of it....and of course they haven't by personal experience.
So it's totally foreign to them and it's perfectly natural for them to
raise their children as they were.....in trust, and support for the
child's learning.

Sad about the rest of you.

0:-