Where IS that blasted LINE?

wrote in message
oups.com...


bobb wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
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Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can
quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical
anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make
you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the
illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]


Hmmm... I've not known of many 14 year olds getting spanked.

14 was the average onset age...in other words, when it was detected.
There was no difference in the psychology of the child, from birth up,
bobber. All the potential and vulnerabilities was already present, and
you want to start spanking them how early?

The question is when should spankings stop?


As I think of
it, I do know a number of 14 years that probably didn't get spanked
enough.

Oh, you mean spanking didn't work, so beatings were in order, eh?

Hmmm... could be possible. Punishments are routinely increased... including
jail sentences for repeated offenders.


I've known thousands of kids that were not spanked and not ONE, bobber,
that turned out bad. NOT ONE.

Gee.. I've know thousands who were spanked.. and not ONE, Kane, turned out
bad. NOT ONE.



bobb

Many now are raising their children without spanking....it's like they
never heard of it....and of course they haven't by personal experience.
So it's totally foreign to them and it's perfectly natural for them to
raise their children as they were.....in trust, and support for the
child's learning.

Sad about the rest of you.

Yeh.. it's is sad that so many forget the positive effects of the woodshed.
A slap on he wrist instead of the butt works wonders. We wonder how come
kids go astray and then blame parents techniques.... when a slap on the butt
is worth a thousand words. Just think what two slaps do.

bobb




0:-

Interesting.........However, why don't you just put down the reading and
stop preaching and just take care of your children? When they act up
discuss it with them, take them aside in private, and proceed to spank
their bottom to the brink of tears.....and let them know if they do that
again, this will happen again.

Work well in all cases.


Mr. Charles Watson
Coldwater Parential Center
Coldwater, Michigan



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bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


bobb wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
TOOLS
Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can
quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical
anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make
you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the
illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]


Hmmm... I've not known of many 14 year olds getting spanked.

14 was the average onset age...in other words, when it was detected.
There was no difference in the psychology of the child, from birth up,
bobber. All the potential and vulnerabilities was already present, and
you want to start spanking them how early?

The question is when should spankings stop?

No, that's A question, not the question I asked.

And this issue really is a series of questions, if you wish to isolate
questions.

When to do it, why to do it, how to do it, when not to do it. How hard
to do it. How frequently to do it.


As I think of
it, I do know a number of 14 years that probably didn't get spanked
enough.

Oh, you mean spanking didn't work, so beatings were in order, eh?

Hmmm... could be possible. Punishments are routinely increased... including
jail sentences for repeated offenders.

It's against the law to hit to punish or otherwise physically punish a
prisoner or inmate.


I've known thousands of kids that were not spanked and not ONE, bobber,
that turned out bad. NOT ONE.

Gee.. I've know thousands who were spanked.. and not ONE, Kane, turned out
bad. NOT ONE.

bobber, that is a lie. We see them in the news daily. Go to a prison,
as researchers have, and find out how many were spanked, from
moderately to cruely harsh.


bobb

Many now are raising their children without spanking....it's like they
never heard of it....and of course they haven't by personal experience.
So it's totally foreign to them and it's perfectly natural for them to
raise their children as they were.....in trust, and support for the
child's learning.

Sad about the rest of you.

Yeh.. it's is sad that so many forget the positive effects of the woodshed.

It's sadder still that so many have forgotten, and some have
suppressed, the negative effects of the woodshed.

This is not a happy world for the majority of the people in it bobber.
One reason for that is the lack of ethics. Such a lack allows people to
harm others and make excuses for it. The development of ethics is the
development of conscience. The development of conscience is retarded by
pain and humiliation.

A slap on he wrist instead of the butt works wonders.

Both have been shown to be risks of injury. The wrist and hand are
particularly suseptable to permanent damage. Stricking the buttocks can
sexual excite children because of the layout of the nervous system in
the pelvic girdle.

Where canning and such is popular adults are known to have a high
incidence of the NEED for sexual exicitation through pain and
humiliation...either performed on them or on others.

We wonder how come
kids go astray and then blame parents techniques....

Sometimes it's the parent's fault and sometimes it's not. That line is
so tenuous that taking a chance that one won't cross it and using pain
and humiliation is a terrible risk to take with another human's life.

when a slap on the butt
is worth a thousand words.

No, it's only a few words to the recipient. "I have no worth." "I can
be hit and hurt and humiliated." "I can't wait until I can do this to
others."

Just think what two slaps do.

Double the risk of unwanted, dangerous, and anti social outcomes. What
else?

bobb

You sure do suffer from persistant ignorance, bobber. Got spanked a
lot, didjah?

Let me explain to you why some children that are spanked DO turn out
okay.

They escape their parents at an early age and find more gentle people
as mentors to learn from.

They make conscious choices to not only break the cycle for themselves,
but they do so for their own children, and sometimes, as they report,
it's very difficult to keep from reverting to the intergenerational
sickness that CP is.

One such poster in this group described going through that himself. He
was spanking his children.....and woke up. He stopped.

Many do. Most can trace their decision to having learned better.

You interested?

0:-







0:-

wrote:
Interesting.........However, why don't you just put down the reading and
stop preaching and just take care of your children?

I already did. They are adults who turned out very well indeed.

When they act up
discuss it with them,

They know what's coming. They are busy thinking.

take them aside in private,

They know what's coming. They are busy thinking.

and proceed to spank
their bottom to the brink of tears.....

They are busy thinking.

and let them know if they do that
again, this will happen again.

They are busy thinking about how they can keep from getting caught.

Work well in all cases.

They are busy thinking about how to get either or, revenge or
satisfaction by being able to do to others what you do to them.

Instead of living life they are being taught to do everything
indirectely, or if directly, violently and criminally.

In other words, either a brute or a sneak. This is how they are
created. By pain and humiliation parenting.


Mr. Charles Watson
Coldwater Parential Center
Coldwater, Michigan

There no such thing. By the way, it's spelled "Parental."

It's far too obvious you are a troll, Charles. Likely one that's been
here before and couldn't debate the issue, rather like our monkey boy,
and simply harass for lack of other skills.

You might want to set your newsreader software to not send in html.

There's a good lad.

0:-




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text="white"/html

wrote in message
oups.com...


bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


bobb wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://katu.com/stories/77633.html

When you, the parent of small children, think you know where The
Line
is and decide to spank, consider the information in this simple
study:

June 12, 2005

Study emphasizes that mental illness often begins in childhood
TOOLS
Email this story to a friend
Printer-friendly Version
By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - Most mental illness hits early in life, with half of all
cases starting by age 14, a survey of nearly 10,000 U.S. adults
found.

Many cases begin with mild, easy-to-dismiss symptoms such as
low-level
anxiousness or persistent shyness, but left untreated, they can
quickly
escalate into severe depression, disabling phobias or clinical
anxiety,
said Ronald Kessler, a Harvard Medical School researcher involved
in
the study. "

[[[ Just think, YOU could be hitting a child (spanking?) that is in
fact suffering an undetected mental illness. Doesn't that just make
you
the proud and wonderful parent though? Surely you can spank the
illness
out of them, can't you? ]]]


Hmmm... I've not known of many 14 year olds getting spanked.

14 was the average onset age...in other words, when it was detected.
There was no difference in the psychology of the child, from birth up,
bobber. All the potential and vulnerabilities was already present, and
you want to start spanking them how early?

The question is when should spankings stop?

No, that's A question, not the question I asked.

And this issue really is a series of questions, if you wish to isolate
questions.

When to do it, why to do it, how to do it, when not to do it. How hard
to do it. How frequently to do it.


As I think of
it, I do know a number of 14 years that probably didn't get spanked
enough.

Oh, you mean spanking didn't work, so beatings were in order, eh?

Hmmm... could be possible. Punishments are routinely increased...
including
jail sentences for repeated offenders.

It's against the law to hit to punish or otherwise physically punish a
prisoner or inmate.

Who said anything about spanking prisioners? Hmmm.. maybe that wouldn't be
a bad idea :-) but I didn't say prisioners, I said repeated offenders...
each time they offend it's possible to increase their punishments with
longer jail sentences.



I've known thousands of kids that were not spanked and not ONE, bobber,
that turned out bad. NOT ONE.

Gee.. I've know thousands who were spanked.. and not ONE, Kane, turned
out
bad. NOT ONE.

bobber, that is a lie. We see them in the news daily. Go to a prison,
as researchers have, and find out how many were spanked, from
moderately to cruely harsh.

I have no reason to visit a prison and I really don't care to hear a bunch
of false excuses why they are there. Except for the innocents... they are
there for but a single reason... you figure it out.



bobb

Many now are raising their children without spanking....it's like they
never heard of it....and of course they haven't by personal experience.
So it's totally foreign to them and it's perfectly natural for them to
raise their children as they were.....in trust, and support for the
child's learning.

Sad about the rest of you.

Yeh.. it's is sad that so many forget the positive effects of the
woodshed.

It's sadder still that so many have forgotten, and some have
suppressed, the negative effects of the woodshed.

Naw, they didn't suppress anything. If they've forgotten it's merely
because it wasn't worth remembering or dwelling on. I've forgotten a lot of
worthless life events. Prod my memory a bit and I might recall how I felt
when someone died, or a punishment I might have received as a child, or the
unfair traffic ticket I received but those events are relatively unimportant
today... unless you or someone of your ilk is trying to build a case for
'suppressed' memory or child abuse. As if no one suffers pain, humiliation,
embarasssment, abuse, hurt feelings, extreme loss, or insecurities and
questionable self esteem while growing up. I tire of the 10 percenters who
live in the past and make excuses for their own poor judgements and decision
making. Let's not forget those who feed on making others feel guilty or
demand society give them 'closure' for past events for the 'wrongs'
perpetrated on them as 'victims' of one thing or another. They are a
product of their own making... not mine.. and not yours and thrive on their
own sickness.








This is not a happy world for the majority of the people in it bobber.
One reason for that is the lack of ethics. Such a lack allows people to
harm others and make excuses for it. The development of ethics is the
development of conscience. The development of conscience is retarded by
pain and humiliation.

A slap on he wrist instead of the butt works wonders.

Both have been shown to be risks of injury. The wrist and hand are
particularly suseptable to permanent damage. Stricking the buttocks can
sexual excite children because of the layout of the nervous system in
the pelvic girdle.

It that what this is all about. More child sexual abuse? Somehow, I do
beleive with people like you spanking will be elevated to some kinda sexual
abuse... and become a felony.


Where canning and such is popular adults are known to have a high
incidence of the NEED for sexual exicitation through pain and
humiliation...either performed on them or on others.

I can't beleive even you can make such a giant leap.


We wonder how come
kids go astray and then blame parents techniques....

Sometimes it's the parent's fault and sometimes it's not. That line is
so tenuous that taking a chance that one won't cross it and using pain
and humiliation is a terrible risk to take with another human's life.

How about the humiliation of being placed in a foster home without cause, or
the humiliation of being exposed as a sexual predator at age 12 because of
some curiosity and placed on a sex registry.



when a slap on the butt
is worth a thousand words.

No, it's only a few words to the recipient. "I have no worth." "I can
be hit and hurt and humiliated." "I can't wait until I can do this to
others."

Just think what two slaps do.

Double the risk of unwanted, dangerous, and anti social outcomes. What
else?

bobb

You sure do suffer from persistant ignorance, bobber. Got spanked a
lot, didjah?

Gee. not that I recall.. but maybe I'm suffering from a 'suppressed memory'
, huh?


Let me explain to you why some children that are spanked DO turn out
okay.

They escape their parents at an early age and find more gentle people
as mentors to learn from.

Like Michael Jackson?


They make conscious choices to not only break the cycle for themselves,
but they do so for their own children, and sometimes, as they report,
it's very difficult to keep from reverting to the intergenerational
sickness that CP is.

One such poster in this group described going through that himself. He
was spanking his children.....and woke up. He stopped.

Naw, he was probably beating his children.. not spanking them.


Many do. Most can trace their decision to having learned better.

And how is it they learned better? Let's see... they were probably
humiliated instead, or had their feeling hurt, or made to feel worthless, or
maybe suffered the loss of their freedom and privilages. Yeh, I suppose
that would work, too, but those punishments are usually reserved for the
older child... not the toddler who gets a smack on the butt for running
toward the street...and does not yet fully understand the spoken word...
especially 'no' and is unable to comprehend all the why's and why nots.

bobb

bobb


You interested?

0:-







0:-

Kane is the spanking abolitionist, in the
fine tradition of John Brown, having little regard
for the actual laws of the land, unless he
can get the laws to agree with him.

John Brown was killed intentionally by
the Union side, not the Confederates.

Being in such a TINY minority must make him feel
truly special and enlightened.

"Greegor" wrote in message
oups.com...
Kane is the spanking abolitionist, in the
fine tradition of John Brown, having little regard
for the actual laws of the land, unless he
can get the laws to agree with him.

John Brown was killed intentionally by
the Union side, not the Confederates.

Being in such a TINY minority must make him feel
truly special and enlightened.

Did you notice the giant leap from spanking to some form of S&M and using a
child for sexual pleasure?

bobb

It seems like the smaller their political MINORITY,
kooks like this become more fervent in their zealotry.

They sometimes pretend that they are speaking for
groups of people, wishful thinking.

This is a Foster Parent Support newsgroup. Give it
back to the foster parents and stop with the childish,
inane crap. Do not go away mad, just go away;

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
It seems like the smaller their political MINORITY,
kooks like this become more fervent in their
zealotry.

They sometimes pretend that they are speaking for
groups of people, wishful thinking.

This is a Foster Parent Support newsgroup. Give it
back to the foster parents and stop with the childish,
inane crap. Do not go away mad, just go away;













This is a Foster Parent Support newsgroup. Give it
back to the foster parents and stop with the childish,
inane crap. Do not go away mad, just go away;

bobb wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


bobb wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...


bobb wrote:


Hmmm... could be possible. Punishments are routinely increased...
including
jail sentences for repeated offenders.

It's against the law to hit to punish or otherwise physically punish a
prisoner or inmate.

So, one goes from a light swat to a harder spanking to a beating to a
jail sentence, and a longer jail sentence. Says a lot for the
effectiveness of punishment, doesn't it? And even repeat offenders
cannot be corporally punished.


Who said anything about spanking prisioners? Hmmm.. maybe that wouldn't be
a bad idea :-) but I didn't say prisioners, I said repeated offenders...
each time they offend it's possible to increase their punishments with
longer jail sentences.

You certainly make a great case for the ineffectiveness of punishment.


I've known thousands of kids that were not spanked and not ONE, bobber,
that turned out bad. NOT ONE.

Gee.. I've know thousands who were spanked.. and not ONE, Kane, turned
out
bad. NOT ONE.

bobber, that is a lie. We see them in the news daily. Go to a prison,
as researchers have, and find out how many were spanked, from
moderately to cruely harsh.


I have no reason to visit a prison and I really don't care to hear a bunch
of false excuses why they are there. Except for the innocents... they are
there for but a single reason... you figure it out.

You don't have to visit a prison, bobber. All you need to do is read
the research before making false claims. You may not personally know
anyone who was spanked and turned out bad, but it's difficult to find
individuals in the juvenile system, or in adult prisons that were not
subjected to corporal punishment as children.


It's sadder still that so many have forgotten, and some have
suppressed, the negative effects of the woodshed.


Naw, they didn't suppress anything. If they've forgotten it's merely
because it wasn't worth remembering or dwelling on. I've forgotten a lot of
worthless life events.

If spanking is a worthless life event, why do it? It places children at
risk and even you admit that it's a worthless event in your life.

Prod my memory a bit and I might recall how I felt
when someone died, or a punishment I might have received as a child, or the
unfair traffic ticket I received but those events are relatively unimportant
today... unless you or someone of your ilk is trying to build a case for
'suppressed' memory or child abuse.

Others may have better memories than you do, bobber.

As if no one suffers pain, humiliation,
embarasssment, abuse, hurt feelings, extreme loss, or insecurities and
questionable self esteem while growing up. I tire of the 10 percenters who
live in the past and make excuses for their own poor judgements and decision
making.

I don't know who those "10 percenters" are that you are referring to,
bobber. This isn't about making excuses for adult behavior, this is
about making life better for children. Parenting without pain and
humiliation has better short and long term outcomes for children, so why
would anyone choose a parenting strategy that places a child at risk?

Let's not forget those who feed on making others feel guilty or
demand society give them 'closure' for past events for the 'wrongs'
perpetrated on them as 'victims' of one thing or another. They are a
product of their own making... not mine.. and not yours and thrive on their
own sickness.

No, bobber, everyone with problems are not a product of their own
making. Who we are as adults is a reflection of how we were raised as
children. Every one of us is a cumulation of past experiences, which
contributes to who we are today. Some of us overcome our past. Some of
us had little to overcome. And others of us cannot, for whatever
reason, overcome our past. Your continual habit or presenting your
opinion as fact and the callousness displayed in your posts makes me
wonder about your past, and how this has influenced who you are today.


Sometimes it's the parent's fault and sometimes it's not. That line is
so tenuous that taking a chance that one won't cross it and using pain
and humiliation is a terrible risk to take with another human's life.


How about the humiliation of being placed in a foster home without cause, or
the humiliation of being exposed as a sexual predator at age 12 because of
some curiosity and placed on a sex registry.

How about sticking with the subject? Kane is talking about the tenuous
line of corporal punishment, and you totally avoid the issue.

Playing by your rules, I could say, "How about the humiliation of being
hit, belittled and hurt, by the individuals that you depend on for your
very survival? How about the pain of waking up in the morning and
wondering if you would be hit and hurt today. How about waking up in
the morning and praying that you could be good enough so that no one
would hit you?"

You are so callous, bobber.


No, it's only a few words to the recipient. "I have no worth." "I can
be hit and hurt and humiliated." "I can't wait until I can do this to
others."

And what Kane has expressed seems to be where you are at in your adult life.


Let me explain to you why some children that are spanked DO turn out
okay.

They escape their parents at an early age and find more gentle people
as mentors to learn from.

As Kane says, there are resiliency factors in some children that allow
them to learn other ways to live and to parent. One of the strongest
resiliency factors is an adult who cares totally and unconditionally,
and who believes, sometimes irrationally, in their success.

They make conscious choices to not only break the cycle for themselves,
but they do so for their own children, and sometimes, as they report,
it's very difficult to keep from reverting to the intergenerational
sickness that CP is.

CP is definitely an inter generational sickness, but sometimes there is
that one caring and supportive adult that helps the child through the
pain. Did you have that adult, bobber?

One such poster in this group described going through that himself. He
was spanking his children.....and woke up. He stopped.


Naw, he was probably beating his children.. not spanking them.

Why would you say something like that? Do you remember the poster? I
do. And why would you assume that he was beating rather than spanking?
Is this just another attempt to justify your attitude towards children?


Many do. Most can trace their decision to having learned better.


And how is it they learned better? Let's see... they were probably
humiliated instead, or had their feeling hurt, or made to feel worthless, or
maybe suffered the loss of their freedom and privilages. Yeh, I suppose
that would work, too, but those punishments are usually reserved for the
older child... not the toddler who gets a smack on the butt for running
toward the street...and does not yet fully understand the spoken word...
especially 'no' and is unable to comprehend all the why's and why nots.

They learned that children are to be protected and parented, not hit and
humiliated. And you really need to learn something about the
development of toddlers. Toddlers are to be kept safe, not to be hit.
Some parents have a false belief that because toddlers have limited
language, they make the cause effect connection of being hit. They
don't. One of my special education graduate students is working with the
child and family of a 5 year old who was hit by a car when she was a
toddler. Her mother didn't understand why this happened, because she
spanked her every time she entered the street.

When I was teaching children, I saw so many little ones that were
damaged by corporal punishment. Some were damaged though emotional
abuse, some though physical damage, and some through what I described
above. Some parents think that if they hit a toddler, the toddler will
understand.

Please learn something about child development, bobber. Your posts are
scary.

LaVonne


bobb

bobb


You interested?

0:-





0:-