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#21
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. In other words, you LIED when you said he "spoke against it"! ;-) "It?" '"the rod"?' I mentioned no rod, liar. And those aren't my words. You removed the reference, liar, to the author, not even bothering to use quotes, and allowing any reader to presume I said that above. See what I mean about you being a liar? Doan Kane |
#22
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children? You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-) Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered. Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-) You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting to divert, rather than answer the question asked. The proven liar here is you! Do you understand Parables? I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-) I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently or even harshly toward children. Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? To show you that his father is a non-punishing one? Doan You stopped here? Yes, STUPID! Doan Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish parents to make up their own minds. You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as soon as it moved into more proof. 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?". You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your own lying kind can see it plainly. You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates, who themselves are non-spankers. That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan. You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than to others. Kane Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24 Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child? Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?" And finally ... I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim the need to spank an do so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and the Bible? Here's some more for you to contemplate. In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes? I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical narrative. http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html ... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8, Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who refused to do so. Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient to her parents' word. 5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the first rod stroke to her bottom. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult bruised thee with a fresh cut stick? 11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more. Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ... Kane Doan |
#23
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. In other words, you LIED when you said he "spoke against it"! ;-) "It?" '"the rod"?' I mentioned no rod, liar. The rod is a metaphor for spanking, STUPID! And those aren't my words. You removed the reference, liar, to the author, not even bothering to use quotes, and allowing any reader to presume I said that above. Hahaha! You have proven once again to be very STUPID! See what I mean about you being a liar? Yes, the proven liar is, once again, YOU! Doan |
#24
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
Doan wrote:
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." Speculation isn't claim Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian." Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived? At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire world of them. Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Nope. Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? In all he did and said during his lifetime. "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any argument against my comments. Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for? Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children? You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-) Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered. Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-) What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more. You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting to divert, rather than answer the question asked. The proven liar here is you! Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual. Do you understand Parables? I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-) I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently or even harshly toward children. Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? Are you a Christian? I'm an atheist and I know. I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him. To show you that his father is a non-punishing one? Non sequitur. Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that. Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank? Doan You stopped here? Yes, STUPID! It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it. Can't deal with what's below here, Doan? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?" Doan Kane Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish parents to make up their own minds. You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as soon as it moved into more proof. 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?". You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your own lying kind can see it plainly. You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates, who themselves are non-spankers. That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan. You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than to others. Kane Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24 Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child? Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?" And finally ... I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim the need to spank an do so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and the Bible? Here's some more for you to contemplate. In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes? I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical narrative. http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html ... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8, Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who refused to do so. Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient to her parents' word. 5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the first rod stroke to her bottom. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult bruised thee with a fresh cut stick? 11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more. Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ... Kane Doan |
#25
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." Speculation isn't claim Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian." Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived? At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire world of them. Hahaha! So Christian don't spank??? Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Nope. Yup! Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where? "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any argument against my comments. The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently? Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for? He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian doctrine? Agreed? Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children? You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-) Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered. Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-) What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? So tasering a six-year old is not violent? You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more. To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-) You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting to divert, rather than answer the question asked. The proven liar here is you! Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual. Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-) Do you understand Parables? I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-) I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently or even harshly toward children. Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? Are you a Christian? Did I say I was? I'm an atheist and I know. Hahaha! That's funny! I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him. Then tell me what the reason is? To show you that his father is a non-punishing one? Non sequitur. Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that. Then tell me why he died on the cross. Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank? That what many christians believe. Are you saying that christians don't believe in spanking? Doan You stopped here? Yes, STUPID! It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it. You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being unable to read a simple chart! ;-) Can't deal with what's below here, Doan? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank? Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?" Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids? Doan Doan Kane Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish parents to make up their own minds. You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as soon as it moved into more proof. 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?". You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your own lying kind can see it plainly. You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates, who themselves are non-spankers. That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan. You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than to others. Kane Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24 Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child? Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?" And finally ... I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim the need to spank an do so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and the Bible? Here's some more for you to contemplate. In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes? I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical narrative. http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html ... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8, Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who refused to do so. Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient to her parents' word. 5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the first rod stroke to her bottom. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult bruised thee with a fresh cut stick? 11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more. Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ... Kane Doan |
#26
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
Doan wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." Speculation isn't claim Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian." Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived? At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire world of them. Hahaha! So Christian don't spank??? See what I mean about you lying. The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean I claim no Christians spank . You do lie so. You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play games. Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Nope. Yup! Nope. Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where? All quotes I've offered. "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any argument against my comments. The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently? What has that to do with spanking.? Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him? Just how stupid are you? Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for? He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian doctrine? Agreed? Nope. By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved? He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine. It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many spankers, to punish, but to teach. Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children? You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-) Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered. Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-) What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? So tasering a six-year old is not violent? What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more. To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-) I'm afraid that backfired on you just a bit. It's stupid to try and destract from the issue. You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting to divert, rather than answer the question asked. The proven liar here is you! Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual. Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-) No you haven't. Do you understand Parables? I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-) I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently or even harshly toward children. Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? Are you a Christian? Did I say I was? Notice the diversion? Are you a Christian? I didn't ask if I said you were, I ask you if you were. I'm an atheist and I know. Hahaha! That's funny! Are you suggesting a atheist can't study religion? Or have been religious at one time? Or that an atheist is wrong about religion because he's an atheist? I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him. Then tell me what the reason is? I did. . To show you that his father is a non-punishing one? Non sequitur. Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that. Then tell me why he died on the cross. I did. He was not being punished. Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank? That what many christians believe. And many do not. Are you saying that christians don't believe in spanking? Did I say that? Show me where. Doan You stopped here? Yes, STUPID! It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it. You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being unable to read a simple chart! ;-) Your stupidity is in misinterpreting and claiming things for charts that are not included. Can't deal with what's below here, Doan? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank? Where did I say Christians don't spank? Some do, some don't. You are simply being stupid again. What we can conclude is that some Christians don't follow their own scripture. As soon as it inconveniences their bias they resort to the Old Testament. Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?" Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids? Do you believe you are raving nutcase that rather than admit you are wrong, continually project meanings not in evidence? Doan 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12' That doesn't say, 'Christians are free, of course, to overlook that when it comes to children.' Christians that actually practice Christianity don't miss the point as Sue Lawrence doesn't. Kane Doan Kane Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish parents to make up their own minds. You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as soon as it moved into more proof. 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?". You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your own lying kind can see it plainly. You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates, who themselves are non-spankers. That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan. You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than to others. Kane Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24 Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child? Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?" And finally ... I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim the need to spank an do so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and the Bible? Here's some more for you to contemplate. In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes? I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical narrative. http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html ... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8, Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who refused to do so. Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient to her parents' word. 5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the first rod stroke to her bottom. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult bruised thee with a fresh cut stick? 11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more. Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ... Kane Doan |
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." Speculation isn't claim Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian." Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived? At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire world of them. Hahaha! So Christian don't spank??? See what I mean about you lying. Yes, I see that you are lying? The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean I claim no Christians spank . Hahaha! What percentage of Christian don't spank, Kane? You do lie so. Yes, you do lie so! ;-) You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play games. Hahaha! You are projecting again. ;-) Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Nope. Yup! Nope. Yup! Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where? All quotes I've offered. Then you are once again showed that you are REALLY STUPID! ;-) "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any argument against my comments. The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently? What has that to do with spanking.? It's about punishment, STUPID! Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him? You tell me! Just how stupid are you? You have shown yourself SO STUPID as not to be able to read a simple chart! Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for? He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian doctrine? Agreed? Nope. Than what? By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved? He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine. Why, if it's not for punishment? It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many spankers, to punish, but to teach. Hahaha! Showing your stupidity agian. Look it up in the dictionary, STUPID. Here, let me do it for you: n. |
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Where did ... Spanking and religion
Doan wrote: On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 6 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote: ... Jesus say to spanking children to discipline them? If it's such a wonderful idea, and not just Old Testament superstition from a time of great violence in society, how is it He never referred to and in fact spoke against it? Step right up, Christians. Well, those that defend spanking children. 0:-] Spoke against it??? ;-) Where? He spoke against divorce but I have never seen any one claimed Jesus spoke against spanking! You must not be a Christian. I've never claimed I was! Nor did I claim you weren't. "You must not be a Christian." Speculation isn't claim Had I meant to make a claim, I would have said, "you are not a Christian." Are you lying, or just language comprehension deprived? At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15 Where does it say anything about spanking? Do you really think he's not talking about how we are to treat children gently? That's your interpretation! Yep. Seems a great many Christians agree with me. Including an entire world of them. Hahaha! So Christian don't spank??? See what I mean about you lying. Yes, I see that you are lying? No you don't. The fact the world is full of Christians that don't spank does not mean I claim no Christians spank . Hahaha! What percentage of Christian don't spank, Kane? Darned if I know. What percentage do spank, Doan? Got a figure? Don't ask for the impossible if you really wish to debate, Doan. You've embarassed yourself for years with that stupid tactic. Did you read the proclamation of the United Methodist church, Doan? You do lie so. Yes, you do lie so! ;-) You are defeated and you know it and that is why you lie and play games. Hahaha! You are projecting again. ;-) Nope. I continue to argue the issue. You don't. Playing the literalist game won't work, Doan. People are far to accustomed to your sly lying ways. The proven liar here is YOU! Nope. Yup! Nope. Yup! Do you really think he was saying to spank Him? Where does he "spoke against it"??? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where did he said anything about spanking? In all he did and said during his lifetime. Hahaha! Where? All quotes I've offered. Then you are once again showed that you are REALLY STUPID! ;-) By quoting all the comments of Christ regarding the treatment of children? And the Golden Rule. MMMMhhhmmmmm...sure, Doan. "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5" "Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." Matthew 18:1-5 Does that appear to you to be support for spanking? It said nothing about spanking! "Spanking" is a metaphor for violence, stupid. Hahaha! Did he not died violently on the cross, STUPID? Sure he did. It's kind of stupid to try and use that to have any argument against my comments. The stupid one here is you? Why does he had to die so violently? What has that to do with spanking.? It's about punishment, STUPID! Was his death to teach Him? Discipline Him? You tell me! Nope. YOU tell me. You claim he was punished apparently, or refuse to answer. Explain your position. Or don't, and prove how unethical you are. Just how stupid are you? You have shown yourself SO STUPID as not to be able to read a simple chart! Non sequitur, and a stupid lying diversion, Doan. Do you think he was therefor "spanked?" What for? He was taking the punishment for us human, according to the Christian doctrine? Agreed? Nope. Than what? ?? By the way, would you spank a child before he misbehaved? He died FOR our sins, according to doctrine. Why, if it's not for punishment? Exactly the reason as stated. It has nothing to do with spanking. We don't spank, according to many spankers, to punish, but to teach. Hahaha! Showing your stupidity agian. Look it up in the dictionary, STUPID. Here, let me do it for you: n. A number of slaps on the buttocks delivered in rapid succession, as for punishment. And there's no other definition, right Doan the liar? I did not point to a dictionary. I pointed to the fact that posters here have claimed that spanking is to teach. Is He not admonishing those in how they would treat children? You meant like tasering a six-year old? ;-) Nothing funny in that. I daresay he wouldn't be against it if it were to save the child's life, or protect others against a large violent acting out teenager. Those were the only examples offered. Hahaha. So much for non-violent! ;-) What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? So tasering a six-year old is not violent? What's that got to do with speaking out against violence? Because tasering is a non-violent??? ;-) Are you planning to run a series of dodges now using all the possible modes of violence to keep from having to admit you are wrong? You threw in the taser issue to mislead, nothing more. To show your STUPIDITY, nothing more! ;-) I'm afraid that backfired on you just a bit. It's stupid to try and destract from the issue. Then YOU ARE STUPID! Then you admit you think it smart to distract from the issue. You are then exposed, once more, as the unethical lying sneak you are. But then, children that are spanked do learn to be sneaky. You are lying again Doan, both by misrepresentation, and by attempting to divert, rather than answer the question asked. The proven liar here is you! Nope. It's you, Doan. Projecting as usual. Nope. I have proven and exposed your LIES many times! ;-) No you haven't. I have done so many times; like exposing your inability to read a simple char, like exposing your failure to calculate a simple rate. Need more? ;-) Your proof please. Even if true, what would be a lie about not reading a chart correctly and failure to calculate a rate correctly, Doan? Do you understand the difference between a mistake and a lie? Do you understand Parables? I understand lies, especially when it came from you! ;-) I'm not lying. Or you think Christ was. His attitude toward children was obvious. He continually admonished others against acting voilently or even harshly toward children. Then tell me what the reason for him dying on the cross? Are you a Christian? Did I say I was? Notice the diversion? Are you a Christian? I've never claimed I was! Are you a Christian or aren't you? Afraid to answer, Doan? The clever master debater? R R R R R R R R I didn't ask if I said you were, I ask you if you were. And I said that you are STUPID, just like Chris Dugan did! ;-) We were discussing a particular issue, not the general character of each other. We disagreed on foreign policy, remember, liar? I'm an atheist and I know. Hahaha! That's funny! Are you suggesting a atheist can't study religion? No! I said that was funny, STUPID! What was funny? Or have been religious at one time? Hihihi! In other words, you are dishonest, and dishonorable and will not debate fairly. I see. Or that an atheist is wrong about religion because he's an atheist? That's a laught What's a "laught?" [sic] I believe you know as well, and it wasn't to spank him. Then tell me what the reason is? I did. . Where? Earlier in the post. To show you that his father is a non-punishing one? Non sequitur. Absolutely nothing to do with why He died on the Cross, and you know that. Then tell me why he died on the cross. I did. He was not being punished. Hahaha! So his death was for not??? For not what? Do you believe he was being punished? Or are you claiming that God tells us to spank? That what many christians believe. And many do not. How many in term of percent, Kane? I've no idea. Do you have any idea how many do believe in spanking, percentage wise? Don't ask for what you cannot produce yourself, Doan. It's too obvious a dodge. Are you saying that christians don't believe in spanking? Did I say that? Show me where. Hahaha! You said that Jesus spoke against it! Yep. Sure did. You see anywhere were he spoke in favor of it, or in his mentioning of children that he even hinted at supporting it? Doan You stopped here? Yes, STUPID! It sure was. But I'm not stupid, or I would have let you get away with it. You have proven to be so STUPID so many times, like you stupidity in being unable to read a simple chart! ;-) Your stupidity is in misinterpreting and claiming things for charts that are not included. It was included, STUPID LIAR! Touched a tender spot, eh? "It" was included when you said "charts," the plural? Brillant, child, brilliant. Can't deal with what's below here, Doan? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Hahaha! And that is why christians don't spank? Where did I say Christians don't spank? How many? The whole world?? I presume Christians live on every continent. That would be the whole world in normal converstation. Where did I say Christians don't spank, Doan? Or are you claiming they all do? Some do, some don't. You are simply being stupid again. Hahaha! What percentage of Christians don't spank? Pointless question, Doan. You can't produce a percentage, and the proportion is not the argument. If you have an arguement concerning proportions, then provide your figure and argue on that point. I certainly made no argument about proportion. What we can conclude is that some Christians don't follow their own scripture. Hahaha! Scripture according to you? Nope. Scripture according to the New Testament. See anywhere, like in the OT, where the beating of children is mentioned and supported? What do you think New refers to, The New Testament? As soon as it inconveniences their bias they resort to the Old Testament. The Old Testament is not scripture??? It's not the New Testament. If I have an old car and replace it with a new car I don't keep the old car. Are Christians Jews? Do you believe children are excluding from the pronoun, "others?" Do you believe that Christian don't spank their kids? Do you believe you are raving nutcase that rather than admit you are wrong, continually project meanings not in evidence? No. I believe that you are a raving nutcase! ;-) Your belief reveals your loss of sanity. Doan 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12' That doesn't say, 'Christians are free, of course, to overlook that when it comes to children.' Christians that actually practice Christianity don't miss the point as Sue Lawrence doesn't. Hahaha! Sue Lawrence is an expert, right? ;-) More than you. By far. And more than those Christians that cannot separate themselves from the Old Testament. To be a Christian one should, logically, follow the precepts of Christ and His testament, no? Why would the old testament belief that children are basically bad and must be whipped and beaten not carry over into the New if it were part of the new testamony? No, it's obviously rejected in the NT or you would not see the quotations of Christ that you do reject violence toward children...in fact, toward any. Here are the verses used to support CP, by some Protestants, (as opposed to Jews) Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)." bullet Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." bullet Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." bullet Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." bullet Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)." Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame." All perportedly to be from a collection by Solomon of sayings and his own parenting style...which we know resulted in the creation a despot (his son) so vile that his subjects tried to kill him. He had to flee for his life. Here is the one NT verse that is sometimes used. Hebrews 12:6-7: "...the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" Notice it moves far away from any mention of rods, or beating? Discipline and punishment need not be physical. Of more interest is that the word for 'rod' from the original, translated, is actually "Shebet," which is also used for 'Shephard's staff," and 'Kings Sceptor. Neither of which are used for beating. Doan You have very little in the way of morals, don't you, Doan? Kane Kane Doan Kane Obviously you couldn't handle reality, and your lie that you wish parents to make up their own minds. You refused to respond to any part of my rebuttal of your nonsense, as soon as it moved into more proof. 'The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?". You couldn't answer that, could you, and maintain your claim. You are a hypocrite, and a deliberate liar, Doan. Anyone and everyone not of your own lying kind can see it plainly. You never attack spankers, you always attack non-spanking advocates, who themselves are non-spankers. That's not consistent with "let parents make up their own mind," Doan. You are liar, and sadly, appear to be lying to yourself even more than to others. Kane Prodigal Son: Then Jesus said, "There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the property that will belong to me.' So he divided his property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spent everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called you son; treat me like one of your hired hands." ' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found' And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:11-24 Does that not appear to you as a plea against punishing the errant child? Have you forgotten this, if you are a Christian? The Golden Rule: "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 Are you willing to exclude children from "others?" And finally ... I'm reminded of this, because of my recognition that many punitive parents are in fact acting and defending 'righteously' when they claim the need to spank an do so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Did you think because I'm an atheist that I don't know Christianity and the Bible? Here's some more for you to contemplate. In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Do you think he's referring only to verbal rebukes? I got quite a kick out of Chris Dugan's exercise in rewriting biblical narrative. http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/JohnChapter8.html ... The New Testament, clearly shows Jesus's attitudes towards the harsh theocratic punishments prescribed by the Old Testament. In John 8, Jesus declares that the person who was without sin should cast the first stone at the woman taken in adultery. Since Christian doctrine states that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, Christians cannot carry out these harsh scriptural relics from early Judaism. The only person in the room who could arguably have cast the first stone on the basis of his own sinlessness was Jesus himself, who refused to do so. Hence, John 8:1-11 might just as easily run something like this: 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees such as J. Richard Fugate and Gary Ezzo and Debi Pearl and Lester Roloff and Michael William Wetton and James Dobson and Charles Swindoll and Larry Tomczak and Roy Lessin and Larry Christensen brought unto him a child taken in naughtiness; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this child was willfully disobedient to her parents' word. 5 Now Solomon in the Book of Proverbs commanded us, that thou shalt beat the child with a rod and deliver his soul from Sheol: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him administer the first rod stroke to her bottom. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the child standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the child, he said unto her, Child, where are those thine accusers? Hath no adult bruised thee with a fresh cut stick? 11 She said, No adult, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I bruise thee: go, and misbehave no more. Of course, Jesus never really says anything about "the rod" anywhere in the New Testament, one way or the other. However, the image of Jesus in the above paraphrase is far more consistent with the image of Jesus in the rest of the gospels than with any equally fictional image of Jesus breaking a screaming child's Will by beating her with a rod, or exhorting parents to do likewise. ... Kane Doan |
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Gag
Greegor wrote:
What religion were your four parents, Kane? What made you decide to be an Atheist? It sounded better than 'hypocrite'. 0:- wrote: http://cathys-miracle-place.blogspot...iscipline.html |
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Gag
joe wrote:
Greegor wrote: What religion were your four parents, Kane? What made you decide to be an Atheist? It sounded better than 'hypocrite'. Your point? 0:- wrote: http://cathys-miracle-place.blogspot...iscipline.html |
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