Help! Toddler left in car question

"Edward Bertsch" wrote:

snip

all that being said, it's hard for people without kids to give advice to
those who do. you're not taken seriously, right off the bat. there's a
certain burden of proof that you have to meet, in the eyes of the parent.

how many other kids does this person have? there's a funny joke about the
attitude of parents with the first kid, second kid, and down the line. as
time goes on the joke has them develop a "the kids will be fine in any
situation, all by themselves" kind of attitude.

That's not it. Before you have kids you say - I would never do that
or let my child act like that. After the first kid you say - This
worked for me so everyone must do it this way. After the second kid
you say - I always said I'd never do that or let my kid act that way
and now look.

And sometimes after that you get mad at the kid or the world for not
conforming to your ideas, and sometimes you think you must be a bad
parent and sometimes you become more empathetic and helpful to other
parents. Usually you stop giving parents who are doing their best
dirty looks, and sometimes you become helpful to parents who are
overwhelmed.


grandma Rosalie

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
You know what? Life is too short for that kind of stupidity.

Sorry, but I do not agree. I do not think you understand the
situation and I do think you are projecting something personal onto
me. I also find you as irrational and judgmental as you find me.

nimue, I don't think you used words like "stupidity" in
talking to your friend. I think you did well, and that
your friend shouldn't have yelled at you. It's just that
your friend (and many other parents) feel so sensitive about
this sort of issue that it requires being almost perfect
with diplomatic language, timing etc. to manage it without
things blowing up.

Thank you, Catherine. You are an excellent advertisement for the techniques
you recommend!

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
Something like this happened in NYC, where a Danish woman left her
baby outside a restaurant in its carriage. Child services were
called in, etc. Things are done differently in different places.
However, my friend is an American, so she can't use the "I'm Danish"
excuse!

No, but if it's done regularly in Denmark, it can't be
all that "wildly unsafe".

Well, I assume Denmark is different than NYC. In the former Soviet Union,
parents would leave newborns alone while they went out dancing. The fact
that this is not something Americans do came as a big shock to many of the
immigrants to this country.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
I really am not concerned about being right. I just want her
daughter to be protected and I do not think she was protective
enough in this case. Maybe I am wrong, but I have to speak when I
am concerned.

Then it's important to speak in the most effective way possible.
I've benefitted from learning Thomas Gordon's "Effectiveness
Training" method. What I told you in another message was
based on that.

Thank you. I will be purchase that book and add it to the peer mediation
bookshelf at my school. Oh -- of course I will read it, too! Its
techniques sound a lot like many of the techniques I use at school -- used
today, in fact.

The more sensitive she is about the issue, the more
you need to get your technique just right if you want
to succeed in influencing her.

What if when you speak up, it leads to her making up
more arguments in her head and being even more convinced
that she was right? I would still speak up anyway,
maybe; I would feel I was clearing my conscience.

Can you catch her being good? Can you notice
when your friend follows a safety rule that you
might have thought she wouldn't follow, and then
praise her for it? "Good idea -- protecting her
from that car. You never know what might happen."
(Casually, and without implying that she's not
as good as everyone else with safety.)

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
I want the baby to be safe. The end. That's it. It seems to me
that the baby is safer in the house with her mother than unwatched
in the car on the street.

You also feel hurt about being yelled at by your friend and
about some people on this newsgroup not seeming to understand
what you're trying to say.

That, too. Absolutely! You want a job? Come to NYC -- I'd hire you in a
heartbeat. What a guidance counselor you would make -- my god, you would be
good!

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

nimue wrote:

What should I apologize for? For making my friend feel criticized? I
didn't mean to.

Sure. I'm not sure exactly how she took it but you have probably figured it
out with some time to ponder it. How do you think she felt? What *exactly*
was her reaction...beyond the anger...what feeling fueled it? If she feels
like you are calling her a bad parent you could say "I'm sorry. I never
intended to insinuate you were a bad parent. I think you are a good and
loving parent." Then stop. Do not mention the incident. If you think she
felt accused of not loving her daughter or not having her safety in mind you
could say "I'm sorry I wasn't more sensitive when I called. I know you love
your daughter with all your heart and of course you are concerned for her
safety. I didn't mean to imply otherwise." Then stop. This conversation
will not be about the incident with the car but about your previous
conversation so I wouldn't bring up the car issue at all.

I'm assuming those statements wouldn't be lies.

"Well, then admit that you think I was right to leave my
baby in the car," and I can't admit that.

I can't fathom that but if she is a flake maybe she would! You could say "I
don't think I'm wrong." or "It is illegal." and refuse to discuss it further

Now, though, I feel uncomfortable. I guess I
can't ignore her flakiness when I think it puts her baby in a
potentially dangerous situation. I fear that something like this may
happen again when I am there and that I will have to say something.

If you are uncomfortable with her parenting maybe this relationship needs to
move to another level. I've had lesser friends that I'm just no longer
friends with because I was uncomfortable with their parenting. It was just
no fun being around them. With this friend, you have a more long term
friendship. You may need to move it to more of a friendship where you get
together without the kid so much. This will probably mean not as many get
togethers until her baby is older. You could go on as usual just don't do
anything you are uncomfortable with....and don't mention it to her or try to
get her to see the light so to speak. You'll be more prepared if there is a
next time so there won't be so much drama. If she leaves her kid in the
bathtub to go answer the door, you can just walk up and stay in the
bathroom....without ever saying I, it, or boo to her about it.

I have kept my mouth shut for 2 years about many little things.
This, though.... I had to say something.

I understand that. There are many issues that some people feel passionately
about and others are just not concerned. I let my kid stand up in the
basket of the cart and this group has had long threads about how horrified
people are about that and so and so fell out and broke his neck from doing
just that..they just have to go up and say something to the parent in the
store. I let my 2yo outside to play by himself. My MIL refused to come in
the house while he was out there. My only reason in bringing this up is it
might help *you* to feel more comfortable and more prepared if you sit and
think about what the things would prompt a 'I had to say something' response
because there are dozens of possibilities. Don't try to think of every
scenario just try to think about what items you feel passionately about.
Then you won't feel any angst when other situations arise. You can either
do what you feel appropriate without speaking to the mother about it, shrug
and say live and let live, or talk to her.


--
Nikki

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
I assume you wouldn't have done it because you feel it is unsafe or
wrong. I assume you wouldn't have said anything because you feel
that saying something is wrong, if not unsafe. I wonder how you can
think this is unsafe, but still not say anything when you see
someone you love doing it.

Well, you see, "safe" and "unsafe" aren't true-false,
black-and-white categories, but a spectrum: more safe
or less safe. Whether a risk is worth taking depends no
one's values -- including how pressed for time one is.
A rich person with lots of leisure time can afford to spend
time preventing rare risks; a poor person who can
hardly find time to eat might just take the risks.
Everybody takes some risks.

If she were doing something unsafe that concerend only herself, I
would keep my mouth shut and have. It's just that it concerns her
daughter. There is no way I could have had a 15 year friendship
with this woman if I couldn't accept, and she couldn't accept, that
people have varying opinions. Lord knows we do. This time, though,
my concern for her daughter made me speak.

If you want to imagine how people can do that, you can
try thinking a lot about how you can say nothing when
people endanger themselves.

I think it's my libretarian streak. I think people should have the right to
do what they please with their own bodies and lives. However, I think all
bets are off once you have children. You have no right to endanger the life
and safety of someone who you created who is completely dependent on you.
If you are going to have children, you really should be prepared to accept
additional responsibility, or don't have them. I, for example, favor the
legalization of all drugs. I don't do drugs myself. I don't even drink or
smoke. I don't care if people do drugs UNLESS they have kids. I would
judge that -- not legally, but morally.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Nikki wrote:
nimue wrote:

What should I apologize for? For making my friend feel criticized?
I didn't mean to.

Sure. I'm not sure exactly how she took it but you have probably
figured it out with some time to ponder it. How do you think she
felt? What *exactly* was her reaction...beyond the anger...what
feeling fueled it? If she feels like you are calling her a bad
parent you could say "I'm sorry. I never intended to insinuate you
were a bad parent. I think you are a good and loving parent." Then
stop. Do not mention the incident. If you think she felt accused of
not loving her daughter or not having her safety in mind you could
say "I'm sorry I wasn't more sensitive when I called. I know you
love your daughter with all your heart and of course you are
concerned for her safety. I didn't mean to imply otherwise." Then
stop. This conversation will not be about the incident with the car
but about your previous conversation so I wouldn't bring up the car
issue at all.

I'm assuming those statements wouldn't be lies.

They most certainly would not be.

"Well, then admit that you think I was right to leave my
baby in the car," and I can't admit that.

I can't fathom that but if she is a flake maybe she would! You could
say "I don't think I'm wrong." or "It is illegal." and refuse to
discuss it further

Now, though, I feel uncomfortable. I guess I
can't ignore her flakiness when I think it puts her baby in a
potentially dangerous situation. I fear that something like this may
happen again when I am there and that I will have to say something.

If you are uncomfortable with her parenting maybe this relationship
needs to move to another level. I've had lesser friends that I'm
just no longer friends with because I was uncomfortable with their
parenting. It was just no fun being around them. With this friend,
you have a more long term friendship. You may need to move it to
more of a friendship where you get together without the kid so much.

I thought of that.

This will probably mean not as many get togethers until her baby is
older. You could go on as usual just don't do anything you are
uncomfortable with....and don't mention it to her or try to get her
to see the light so to speak. You'll be more prepared if there is a
next time so there won't be so much drama. If she leaves her kid in
the bathtub to go answer the door, you can just walk up and stay in
the bathroom....without ever saying I, it, or boo to her about it.

Oh, lord. Just stop my heart, why don't you! Oh, god, I would HAVE to say
something in that case. Oh, god.

I have kept my mouth shut for 2 years about many little things.
This, though.... I had to say something.

I understand that. There are many issues that some people feel
passionately about and others are just not concerned. I let my kid
stand up in the basket of the cart and this group has had long
threads about how horrified people are about that and so and so fell
out and broke his neck from doing just that..they just have to go up
and say something to the parent in the store. I let my 2yo outside
to play by himself. My MIL refused to come in the house while he was
out there. My only reason in bringing this up is it might help *you*
to feel more comfortable and more prepared if you sit and think about
what the things would prompt a 'I had to say something' response
because there are dozens of possibilities. Don't try to think of
every scenario just try to think about what items you feel
passionately about. Then you won't feel any angst when other
situations arise. You can either do what you feel appropriate
without speaking to the mother about it, shrug and say live and let
live, or talk to her.

Thank you for all your excellent advice.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" ) writes:
But then, that's not a safety issue, so it's not really appriate to bring
up
to a parent.

Are you serious? I think it's fine to bring things
up (nicely, diplomatically, gently) if they're important,
whether they're safety issues, nutrition issues, emotional
health issues, or whatever.

Well, maybe not religious issues. :-)
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Yeah, I'm serious. If my child is in imminent danger and there's some
reason that I haven't noticed this, then I would be grateful for the person
who intervened to keep them safe (assuming that I agree they were in
danger -- that's where it gets tricky). But if someone walked up and told
me that their lunch wasn't healthy enough, I'd probably tell them to shove
it (or be more polite but still *think* they should shove it). If they
think I'm hugging them too much or not enough -- shove it.

I'm not closed off by any means. I'm constantly talking to my friends about
parenting issues. And if I've asked for advice, I'm very open to receiving
it. But if someone came up to me unsolicited and said something along the
lines of, "If your baby wakes up and you're not there immediately she'll be
scarred for life." Well, shove it.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote:


"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" ) writes:
But then, that's not a safety issue, so it's not really appriate to bring
up to a parent.

Are you serious? I think it's fine to bring things
up (nicely, diplomatically, gently) if they're important,
whether they're safety issues, nutrition issues, emotional
health issues, or whatever.

Well, maybe not religious issues. :-)
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Yeah, I'm serious. If my child is in imminent danger and there's some
reason that I haven't noticed this, then I would be grateful for the person
who intervened to keep them safe (assuming that I agree they were in
danger -- that's where it gets tricky). But if someone walked up and told
me that their lunch wasn't healthy enough, I'd probably tell them to shove
it (or be more polite but still *think* they should shove it). If they
think I'm hugging them too much or not enough -- shove it.

I'm not closed off by any means. I'm constantly talking to my friends about
parenting issues. And if I've asked for advice, I'm very open to receiving
it. But if someone came up to me unsolicited and said something along the
lines of, "If your baby wakes up and you're not there immediately she'll be
scarred for life." Well, shove it.

Bizby

I wouldn't think 'shove it' but I might laugh. Because I think it
would be kind of (forgive me) but a silly thing to say. Not only
over the top about the scarred for life bit, but just - well - silly.

I do believe in being there for the baby - but to me, that doesn't
mean that the baby will never be left alone for an instant lest they
wake without being able to see me.

If I had the dilemma of a child asleep in the car and stuff to get
into the house, I would certainly let the child sleep if they would
while I took in the groceries or whatever. I would not expect that
the kid would be upset on waking even if I wasn't there. After all,
they went to sleep in the car. They know where they are.

I wouldn't leave them in a closed car or for very long. But strapped
in a car seat in my own driveway, with the motor off, the brakes on,
in park and the keys NOT in the car - no problem, or very little
problem. An acceptable risk.

And probably laughing would really **** off the person who was
offering the well meant advice more than if I had actually said to
shove it, which is a nice extra benefit.






grandma Rosalie