Help! Toddler left in car question

"nimue" wrote in message
...
P. Tierney wrote:
"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" ) writes:
But then, that's not a safety issue, so it's not really appriate to
bring up
to a parent.

Are you serious? I think it's fine to bring things
up (nicely, diplomatically, gently) if they're important,
whether they're safety issues, nutrition issues,

I could bring up nutrition issues to just about everyone
I know. And they could to me, in some cases. But I don't
since it's none of my business, imo.

I used to bicycle without a helmet. A friend of mine
repeatedly brought it up to me. I was aware of the information,
pros and cons, but I chose not to. But since he slid it in every so
often in conversation, I deliberately drifted apart from him, and
stayed that way for many years.

So, since I'm touchy about others "suggesting" to me
how I live my life, I'm wary of doing the same to others.
Being aware of information does not necessarily change
one's actions.

Good -- so now you understand why my husband won't wear a seatbelt.

I never responded to that issue in the first place.


P. Tierney

"nimue" wrote in message
...
P. Tierney wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
nimue wrote:
Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"nimue" ) writes:
Your friend's decision,
though you may not make that same decision for your own family,
falls in the reasonable range.

I do not think it is reasonable nor does anyone else I have asked
-- on this ng and elsewhere -- except you.

I think her decision to leave her child sleeping in
the car for 20 minutes was a reasonable one.

You think it's okay to leave a kid asleep in a car parked on a
street for 20 minutes without being able to see or hear her and
without checking on her? Really?

Let me clarify that -- you think it's okay to leave a 2 year old
asleep in
a car parked on a streetor 20 minutes without being able to see or
hear her
and without checking on her? Really? I don't -- obviously my friend
does and you do, but I don't think it's safe.

That was stated *in your very first post*. So why keep bringing
it up?

Because what she described as ok was not the situation I described. A lot
of people are kind of dodging my original question by answering another
one
I didn't ask.

It's impossible for anyone to completely do that anyway since
each situation is localized. But many people answered it directly
anyway. If you have not yet found enough answers to
your direct question, I'd be a bit stunned.

For example, people are saying, " "Well, it would be ok if I
left my kid sleeping in the car for a few minutes while I brought a bag of
groceries inside on a cool day while the car was parked in my own
driveway."
Yeah -- well, I think that is fine, too, but that was not what I was
asking
about.

That is because, on the usenet, topics often get discussed on
threads that are related, and sometimes not, to the original post.
Once a thread is launched, it takes on a life of it's own.

Still, discussing which other instances one would leave a child
in a car is a logical is a logical, and fully expected, portion of
this thread.

There was no need for your question above -- her statement
was clear enough.

Maybe it's the English teacher in me, but no -- it wasn't.

But you don't agree, so you keep berating those
who don't fall in line with your point of view.

Hardly. I would like people to address the specific question I asked.
Some
people aren't doing that and that doesn't help answer my question.

Most seemed to given the information that they had. But other
free-thinking adults, being as they are, branched out into other
areas, all of which I read were related. Not everyone responds
exactly as the OP intended. To expect such a level of compliance
simply isn't realistic. Trying to make certain that one gets such
compliance is an effort in futility.


P.
Tierney

"Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote in message
...
"P. Tierney" wrote:

I used to bicycle without a helmet. A friend of mine
repeatedly brought it up to me. I was aware of the information,
pros and cons, but I chose not to. But since he slid it in every so
often in conversation, I deliberately drifted apart from him, and
stayed that way for many years.

I think that this is what irks me; the implication that perhaps you are
ignorant and unknowing, hence your bad choice.

Yeah, and I've noticed this a lot in this country lately in other
areas, especially with regards to politics and the last two elections.
So many people thought that "You only aren't supporting
Candidate A because you don't know enough about him.
As soon as I tell you about his ideas B, C, and D, and
expose you to you're candidates flaws E, F, and G,
then you will see the light!"

Well, it doesn't quite work that way. Some people,
aware of all information, still think differently.


P. Tierney

"Tori M." ) writes:
"Nan" wrote in message
Sorry Nan I just get agrivated with yeah buts. It started out story A and
keeps getting expanded with yeah buts. I dont think she was lieing
neccesaraly but I do think some exageration is going on.

Oh, come on. Just because someone provides
additional information about a situation they
were in doesn't mean exaggeration is going on.
Mentioning lying is OTT IMO.

I agree there are safety concerns that are basic but I dont see this as one
of them. Maybe because I know people that leave kids in the car at their
own house often because the kids are sleeping.

Well, I think it's a situation where there is some
risk but the risk is very small, so some people classify
it as "reasonably safe" while others classify the
same level of risk as "unacceptably unsafe". It's just
a matter of where one draws the line. It's not as if
it's a situation that involves a high level of risk.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"shinypenny" ) writes:
Have I ever? No. In fact, the first time I ever left my kids alone in
the car was a few weeks ago, when I needed to make a quick run to the
grocery store. They are 10 and 12 now. I wouldn't have left one or the
other alone, but since they both wanted to stay in the car and read
their books, I locked the doors, made them promise not to open them or
leave the car for any reason, and went inside to shop for 30 minutes.
But then again, all my friends think I'm way too overprotective and a
nervous nelly.

I think this level of protection is bad for the children
emotionally. How will they get enough exercise, develop
their sense of independence, develop their judgement,
learn how to interact with strangers, or develop into
adults who feel comfortable walking down the street?

Nowadays children are kept indoors a lot, and this
contributes to neighbourhoods where people don't know
each other, sidewalks with few pedestrians on them,
lack of exercise, and flaring tempers
as parents try to deal with restless children.
Indirectly these factors contribute to an increased
crime rate, as well as increased rates of
degenerative diseases from lack of exercise.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"shinypenny" ) writes:
Have I ever? No. In fact, the first time I ever left my kids alone
in
the car was a few weeks ago, when I needed to make a quick run to
the
grocery store. They are 10 and 12 now. I wouldn't have left one or
the
other alone, but since they both wanted to stay in the car and read
their books, I locked the doors, made them promise not to open them
or
leave the car for any reason, and went inside to shop for 30
minutes.
But then again, all my friends think I'm way too overprotective and
a
nervous nelly.

I think this level of protection is bad for the children
emotionally. How will they get enough exercise, develop
their sense of independence, develop their judgement,
learn how to interact with strangers, or develop into
adults who feel comfortable walking down the street?

Nowadays children are kept indoors a lot, and this
contributes to neighbourhoods where people don't know
each other, sidewalks with few pedestrians on them,
lack of exercise, and flaring tempers
as parents try to deal with restless children.
Indirectly these factors contribute to an increased
crime rate, as well as increased rates of
degenerative diseases from lack of exercise.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

And I wholeheartedly agree! But also realize we live in an urban
center. I would love it if my kids could walk to school every morning,
but here is the reality of our situation:

DD10 goes to the grade school, which is too far to walk and she must be
driven every day. Next year, she will go to the same school as DD12,
and at that point in time I hope to get them walking together using the
buddy system.

In the meantime, the reality is that I don't deem it safe for DD12 to
walk alone to her school, even though it's only 1 mile away. When the
weather is nice, such as yesterday, I have walked with her to school
and we do talk about safety issues she might encounter next year when
she and her sister begin to walk alone together.

The 1 mile walk is along a busy street that gets traffic going into the
city and coming out of the city. There is also a city bus line and she
must walk past several bus stops. One stretch of this area is
less-than-savory; there is a small market that sells scratch tickets,
liquor and cigs, and every morning there is a handful of unsavory,
half-sober bums standing around begging for change so they can buy
scratch tickets and liquor. On this corner, there is also an abandoned
house in which homeless people are probably crashing, and across the
street is a rental apartment with high turnover. In general we make a
wide path around this one particular corner, but it still makes me
nervous.

As I've walked with her on other parts of the route, inevitably someone
who is lost will pull over and ask me for directions (lots of
out-of-staters). I have explained to DD that no adult should ever pull
over and ask a kid for directions, and if one does, she should NEVER
stop to give directions. Still, it concerns me that every time we walk
this stretch, someone stops me for directions (yesterday we got stopped
twice).

By the time we're about 3/4's of the way to school, there is a traffic
cop and from that point on, lots of kids seen walking, and DD could
easily join up with her friends. At that point, I'm totally comfortable
with her walking. It's just the first 3/4 mile!

As you can see, those of us living in urban centers have a bit more of
a challenge. It's not as easy as "kids should walk to school." Walking
to school will make more sense next year when DD's can be buddies, and
DD12 is just a tad older. In the meantime, this year has been the year
I've been working with her on safety awareness.

She's not quite there, IMO, and that is largely due to the fact my DD12
tends to be a daydreamer and walks with her head down cluelessly
unaware of her surroundings. Last year, for example, when I've left her
in charge of DD10 for a few minutes while I run to another grocery
aisle or something like that, she'd daydream, wander off, and lose
track of her sister! Other kids may be fine to walk our route at this
age, but not DD12.

She's long been like that, wandering off in a daydream trance, but the
good news is that I have seen this changing this past year! Bit by bit,
I've been finding safe ways to give her more responsibility and see how
she handles it. Walking to school alone I'm still not comfortable with,
but as I said, I left them in the car while I went in the grocery
store, and that worked out just fine. Also have been taking the girls
to the mall and letting them go off to shop on their own, slowly
expanding the time they are allowed to go off together out of my sight.
This past weekend, I took them to the mall while I had my hair done,
and they went off for the bulk of two hours touching base once or twice
by cell. That worked out just fine, but to me the mall is a much safer
environment than our street.

jen

Nan ) writes:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:16:49 GMT, "Cathy Kearns"
scribbled:
You keep asking what we would do, would we leave a toddler in the
car in this situation. But we know what you would do. You DID leave
the toddler in the car. You walked into the house with the mother. You
left the child. Later you berated the mother for this. If you truely
thought
it was terribly dangerous and truely unacceptable you would have stayed
with the child.

Oh ffs. You're attempting to put the inappropriate action on the
non-parent. It was not her end *responsibility* to watch the child.

OK, sure, it wasn't her responsibility. Nevertheless,
Cathy's point is well-made. If the mother had been
doing something terribly dangerous, nimue, (who cares
about the child), would have intervened. Since she
didn't, we can conclude that nimue didn't feel at
the time that it was terribly dangerous. Uncomfortably
dangerous, yes, but not terribly dangerous.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Penny Gaines ) writes:
The distance from a busy road would be less of a concern to me then whether
the road the car was parked in was used much. If there were lots of people
walking past the car, I wouldn't leave the toddler. If there was only
likely to be one or two, I might.

I think it's safer when there are lots of people walking past.
People don't usually commit crimes when there are lots
of witnesses.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
Catherine Woodgold wrote:
I think children should be free to walk down city
streets, e.g. to knock on their friends' doors, without
everybody making a fuss that they shouldn't be alone.

Uh, do you think 2 year olds should do this? I just ask, because we have
been discussing leaving a 2 year old unattended in a car.

Depends on the situation I suppose, but in most
situations probably not. However, that's because
the 2 year old is likely to do irresponsible things
like walk in front of a moving car. A child strapped
into a car seat might not be in that sort of danger.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"P. Tierney" ) writes:
Without using anecdotes or examples, how would you define
"putting a child at risk"?

Excellent question. You're an engineer, right?
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.