Feeling a big anxious about induction vs. c-section

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
news
Joybelle wrote:

Thanks for that piece of advice! I think I need to give it to the
people
around me, also. There's been a bit of pressure to get things set up
because of accomodations and what to do with the kids. It WOULD be
easier
to know the date, but still I don't want to do something just for the
sake
of convenience (though, it is a little more involved than that,
obviously!).

I'm sure that the scheduling issues are enough to drive
anyone nuts. And, if when you take it all together, you decide
an elective c-section is what you need to do in order to make
everything work out okay for you, then there's no shame in doing
that. But if what makes you feel better is to give it the best
possible shot at avoiding the c-section, then everyone else can
just learn to cope ;-) You're the pregnant woman. There aren't
many times in your life when you get to be selfish, but this is
one of them!

Thanks, Ericka! There are a few stressors beyond my pregnancy/baby issues
that are contributing to the pressure. One of my sisters is having
laproscopic surgery on Oct 3, and that is really bad timing, though it can't
be helped, y'know?? It's obviously putting my mom under a lot of stress.
My other sister just had her baby, so she's got that going on. My husband's
parents own a business, so they are always busy. I wish I could make it
easier for them, but I agree I have to be a bit selfish, if not for me, for
this baby. I think all of them understand, but the pressure is there.

From the beginning of this pregnancy, I have felt that Oct 5 was a
significant date, so maybe... I do know I'm not going to be pressured into
an induction for next week, unless there is some very good evidence I need
one. Thanks for your help!
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
...


Yeah, that makes perfect sense, the fact that your nephews birth would be
bringing stuff up.

I really think so. I feel like I'm mourning the loss of my homebirth and
"normal" baby all over again. Seeing my nephew born was amazing, but
seeing his perfection makes me afraid of how different mine might be. It's
that unknown again, and I HATE that!

Although we didn't take Nathan to term, there was also a large denial
factor -- I could sort of pretend that I was just normal and pregnant for
a
little bit, since I had no direct evidence in front of me that my baby was
not healthy and okay. So, maybe there is a little bit of that going on --
you found out midway through your pregnancy, but there wasn't much you
could
do about it, and your pregnancy sort of continued on, much like your other
3, except the GD diagnoses (and tons more doctors appointments). But now
that delivery is immenent, all of a sudden, you really have to deal with
it.

I think you are right, Jamie. Hugs to you and thank you.

Or maybe not. I could be off base...it's been known to happen! ; )

I don't think you are off base at all, Jamie. Thank you so much for your
thoughts.
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

"Circe" wrote in message
news:iW_Xe.24223$sx2.10518@fed1read02...
"Joybelle" wrote in message
...
It is excellent advice, and I feel "armed" now, so to speak.

And there's nothing more dangerous than an armed woman in the third
trimester of pregnancy g...
--
Be well, Barbara (just lightening the mood a litt!e)

What a great visual, huh?!!


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

"Elle" wrote in message
oups.com...

I will add an anecdote from the other side to counteract the ones your
mom has been sharing -- my cousin has a little boy with spina bifida
and he was born vaginally. He was her first birth too, she didn't even
have a "proven pelvis" like you do. It didn't make the SB any worse. I
don't really know too much about SB but I do know that his is not a
mild case and the recommendation was still to have him vaginally. Good
luck with all your decisions Joy.

That is a great story, Elle. Thank you!


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

"Mum of Two" wrote in message
...
No experience here and nothing to add, but I hope you get the birth you
want, whatever that ends up being! Does that make sense?

Thanks, Amy! Makes sense to me. I do think it will all work out in the
end, I guess it's just getting there...
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

((hugs)) Joy. You've had lots of great advice so I won't add any more
to it. I just wanted to say that you are a smart woman, and you'll make
a great decision for you and this little guy. Will it be hard? Yes--the
whole situation is difficult, but you are a strong, caring, loving
woman who does her best to be informed, and that's all that anyone can
ask of you--including yourself. :-)

((hugs))

LARRY "CRUNCHIER" THAN BRASS MONKEY BALLS? (see below)

WHO IS THE ENEMY?

SEMANTICS AREN'T IMPORTANT?


Amy (Mum of Two),

Semantics are ALL important when massive crimes are being committed against
babies obstetricians.

Larry McMahan employs semantics which help perpetuate the crimes - saying
the crimes are mere standard "substandard" care.



LARRY - DO YOU **SUSPECT** CHILD ABUSE IS OCCURRING AS OBSTETRICIANS
EXPERIMENT WITH ASPHYXIATING NEWBORN BABIES?

EMERGENCY! (And it's one of MANY obstetric emergencies/crimes.)

See below.




Amy "attacked" - nicely - civilly...

IMO, you're overstepping the boundaries here Todd.


We disagree; but I'm glad you spoke up and offered criticism.

If you have anything to
offer that's relevant to Joy, by all means, include it in the thread.

What I post about is relevant to the CONDITION - spina bifida in babies and
the way vaginal birth of these and other babies is treated by obstetricians
- including bizarre birth-canal-closing behavior and cover-up lies.

Nowadays I always include mention of routine asphyxiation/denial of
umbilical oxygen and routine robbery of massive amounts of baby blood.

Both the mass birth-canal-closing and mass asphyxiation/baby blood robbery
are crying emergencies.

Considering what Joy has been through already in her pregnancy, I don't
think she needs it to be the subject of debate on misc.health.alternative
and sci.med.

My primary concern is what BABIES are going through - NOW - by the thousands
per day.

I am sorry if my posts have offended Joybelle. That is not my intent.

I don't think anyone likes to see the personal lives of MKPers
become pawns in a cause in such a blatantly obvious manner, no matter how
important the cause is.

MKP/misc.kids.pregnancy is a usenet newsgroup NOT a private list.

People have the option of posting anonymously if they wish.

Again, I am sorry if my posts have offended Joybelle. That is not my
intent.

Until recently you responded on a more human levels
to individual posters and showed more respect for that thin line in the sand
that is netiquette, and I appreciated that.

Included in "netiquette" is intellectually HONEST argumentation.

When THAT "thin line in the sand" of netiquette is crossed - I responed
accordingly and point out the intellectually dishonest argumentation as I
did in response to Barbara/Circe's reply to me.

So far Barbara/Circe has not yet acknowledged having falsely inferred that I
said something which I did not say.

Larry snipped my correction along with my mention of his bizarre "obstetric
crime is substandard care" came - and jumped in with his concern for
netiquette.

(Incidentally, Joybelle agreed with Barbara/Circe's intellectual dishonesty.
But it's not Joybelle's job to defend me - so I (again) defended me - in
response to Joybelle's post.)

I also don't understand your constant attacks on Ericka and Larry (and
Barbara too?).

I say again: Larry is blithely calling massive obstetric crimes against
babies mere standard "substandard" care.

So far as I can see, the only leg Larry has to stand on is the sordid fact
that law enforcement is failing to enforce.

As Steve B. Harris, MD arrogantly notes:

"Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no crime.
These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to you."
http://groups.google.com/group/misc....866f3384801ae9

That is the problem! No enforcement!

With people failing to speak out...

With ostensibly "crunchy" people like Larry (your term; see below) publicly
pretending that the massive obstetric crimes are mere standard "substandard"
care...

That just puts off the day that law enforcement stops looking the other way.

Similarly, when prominent childbirth education authors like Henci "the other
side" Goer FAIL TO MENTION massive obstetric crime - people are further
distanced from speaking out.

Ericka publicly lied - said that Henci Goer discusses in her books the fact
that obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth
canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up.

ERICKA attacked.

My attacks in response are self-defense - protests of Ericka's bizarre lie.

WHY is she lying about that?

Intellectual dishonesty is THE "line in the sand of good netiquette."

Ericka blatantly crossed it and now sits on her lie silently.

Since silence of childbirth educators like Henci Goer perpetuates the crimes
- I speak up about that and Ericka's bizarre attempt to cover-up Henci's
silence.

Regarding Barbara (Circe), I always kind of liked the fact that she said she
doesn't killfile anyone, as in,

"I don't killfile anyone, even Gastaldo. I just don't bother to read his
posts (they give me a headache!)."
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/2a2c5843d4c7d280

Barbara read my post and falsely inferred that I said something I did not.

Again, in correcting, I mentioned the bizarre public behaviors of Ericka and
Larry.

THAT'S when Larry started tooting the horn on the "good netiquette"
bandwagon - as he engages is BAD netiquette - babies be damned.

Perhaps their methods are different from yours


Ericka's method is lying - quite different from mine.

I can prove that Ericka is lying.

I cannot prove that Larry is lying. Maybe he really DOES believe that the
obvious obstetric crimes are just standard "substandard" care?

Does he think Dr. Morley's baby asphyxiation experiment is a crime?

See below.

but I think
they want the same things for MKPers and labouring women that you do. Larry
is crunchier than the balls on a brass monkey!

I don't think I've ever seen a brass monkey let alone the balls thereon.

"Crunchier" refers to counterculture?

If so, I disagree. Larry gives cultural authorities/MDs a pass where it
counts.

With everyone giving MDs a pass, the massive MD crimes continue.

I'll ask Larry again:

LARRY - IS THIS CHILD ABUSE?

Is the temporary baby asphyxiation experiment child abuse?

I wrote to Barbara:

No need to "beg" to differ with me - people differ with me all the time -
like for example the time that Ericka Kammerer pretended publicly -
ERRONEOUSLY - that childbirth educator Henci Goer warns that obstetricians
are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the
"extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck.

I welcome ALL differing; though obviously, I still think Ericka's (and
Henci's!) behavior bizarre - like Larry McMahan's notion that the massive
obstetric crimes are just standard "substandard" care and not crimes.

Speaking of obstetric crime...

Barbara, you snipped Dr. Morley's temporary baby asphyxiation experiment.

Here it is again:

"[T]he umbilical cord [is] immediately closed between finger and thumb...The
[fetal heart rate/FHR] will decelerate quickly to about 60 bpm...the color
will change from purple-pink (normal at birth) to pallid blue
(vaso-constriction and asphyxia.)...Few midwives or obstetricians will be
able to observe, without interference, a deep, prolonged FHR deceleration on
a non-breathing newborn for a period of 60 seconds.* Common sense will soon
release the finger and thumb."
http://www.cordclamping.com/acog-cp.htm

Barbara, do you think it is a crime for obstetricians to temporarily
asphyxiate babies to demonstrate to themselves that they should not
PERMANENTLY asphyxiate umbilical cord oxygen and rob babies of up to 50% of
their blood volume?

Or do we differ on that point too?


Larry McMahan replied:

In misc.kids.pregnancy wrote:
: In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:

: : My post was for "new readers and chiros" - not Joybelle necessarily.

: That's the problem. Responses in a thread started by a regular poster
: should remain directed to that poster, and remain OT and limited to
: mostly to that poster's needs.

Larry,

There is no problem except your attempted use of "netiquette" concerns to
cover-up your embarrassment at euphemizing mass child abuse by MDs as
standard "substandard" care.

Law enforcement is looking the other way - babies be damned - and you are
pretending that means that no crime is occurring.

When mass child abuse is suspected - EVERYONE hears about it - everyone has
a chance to PREVENT it - that's what I would want if I was a child being
abused.

By creating a new subject line, everyone reading the thread instantly knew
there was a change.

Larry, you are publicly pretending otherwise - just like you are publicly
pretending that obstetricians are only practicing standard "substandard"
care and not committing obvious crimes.


: posts for "new readers and" any others should start a new thread.

: You may post as you wish, just start a new thread when your post is
: OT to or not directed to the OP.

: Thanks,
: Larry

Oooh, and finally (didn't see this one until I hit send and saw the
list of ng's I was posting to. Grrrr)

Last piece of netiquitte is don't add newsgroups when when responding
to a post. Leave it in the orignal poster's newsgroup(s) only. You
can add the other newsgroups when you start your own thread.

TIA for being courteous.

Larry

Babies are being abused en masse - sometimes killed.

You are preaching "netiquette" as MDs perform mass child abuse.

It's about as useful to babies as you claiming that the mass child abuse is
standard "substandard" care.

I will add back the newsgroups you deleted.

END Todd's response to Larry

JUST SEMANTICS?

AMY CONCLUDED...

After a point - and anyone who knows me will know how alien it is to me to
say this - it all becomes semantics. Can't people agree to disagree on some
points, and admit they have a common goal or two? Who is the enemy?


se·man·tics ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(s-mntks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

1. Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.
2. Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and
what they represent. Also called semasiology.
3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other
language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

Amy,

When babies are being asphyxiated en masse and robbed of massive amounts of
blood....

As I indicated above...

Semantics are all important.

When "substandard" care is occurring - there isn't nearly as much urgency...

When CRIME is occurring - crime is stopped immediately - ESPECIALLY when
babies are being harmed.

When crime/abuse of babies is so much as SUSPECTED - health professionals
are MANDATED to report - but ANYONE may report.

Indeed, the State of Oregon ENCOURAGES people who are not required to report
to report suspected child abuse, as in,

"ALL OREGON CITIZENS ARE ENCOURAGED TO REPORT SUSPECTED [CHILD ABUSE] TO DHS
OR LAW ENFORCEMENT. Over 25 percent of the substantiated cases of child
abuse are reported by concerned citizens who are not required to report.
Failure to report is a violation and carries a maximum penalty of $1,000.00.
Mandatory reporters have also been successfully sued for damages in civil
court for failing to report.©—
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/children/a...s/report.shtml

WHO IS THE ENEMY?

Obstetric criminals/MDs are the "enemy" because they are routinely
asphyxiating babies and robbing massive amounts of blood from them, etc.

As always, I am in favor of pardons in advance. As medical students, MDs
are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies.

The crimes are so massive, it would not surprise me to learn that usenet
newsgroups are salted with knowledgeable people who will lie to buttress the
authority of - for example - child birth educators claiming to be "the other
side."

Remember when a certain woman appeared suddenly, swearing that I was wrong
about the mass baby asphyxiation/mass baby blood robbery - right after my
post in reply to immediate cord clamping/baby asphyxiation proponent/baby
blood robber Peter Hollands, PhD?

She violated "netiquette" all over the place - and people CHEERED her - and
it turned out she was "just joking."

That was weird.

Prominent childbirth educator Henci "the other side" Goer's failure to
mention the spectacle of obstetricians keeping birth canals closed the
"extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck is only exceeded in strangeness by
Ericka's bald-faced lie that Henci is not silent about this massive
obstetric crime.

WHY are people giving MDs a pass? Obvious CRIMES are being committed
against babies en masse - obvious cover-up lies are being told.

Why has Larry not yet acknowledged that MDs are mostly anti-immunization
given their bald lie of omission - their failure to state that
breastfeedings include IMMUNIZATIONS manufactured by mothers?

Back in 2001, when Tsu Dho Nimh wrote:

"I didn't say there aren't benefits to breastfeeding *- but the antibodies
in the milk are not an 'immunization.'"

Larry replied:

"Aha! *Now I understand. :-) *Uh, that's not my arugment, but the
good doctor Todd's, one which I have not completely bought into."
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/
msg/9cbd531c0a4a4cc0?hl=en&

Larry, have you bought into it yet - after patronizing me as being "the good
doctor Todd"?

For my 2001 response to Larry (and others)...

See Breastmilk eyedrops/Gastaldo corrects McMahan, Laing, Goble,
Sessions, Fiona, Kate and Dave...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/1242

Once Larry has "completely bought into" the notion that breastfeedings are
immunizations - maybe he will not be so eager to give MDs a pass as they
parade themselves as being pro-immunization.

MDs are mostly ANTI-immunization - and on top that they are fraudulently
promoting their needle vaccinations....

See MD crimes vs. that kidder Larry... Was - Forced Vaccination
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/bcd4dfbe39bf9cca

From mass physical child abuse to mass IMMUNOLOGIC child abuse - Larry gives
lying MDs a pass.

They are merely offering standard "substandard" care, he says.


I say again Amy:

Semantics are ALL important when massive crimes are being committed against
babies obstetricians.

Larry McMahan employs semantics which help perpetuate the crimes - saying
the crimes are mere standard "substandard" care.

I am sorry if I offended Joybelle. That is not my intent.

MKP is a usenet newsgroup - NOT a private list on usenet.

Thanks for speaking up.

Sincerely,

Todd ("the good doctor Todd")

From the beginning of this pregnancy, I have felt that Oct 5 was a
significant date, so maybe... I do know I'm not going to be pressured
into
an induction for next week, unless there is some very good evidence I need
one. Thanks for your help!

of course it's significant, it's my birthday!

Anne

"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
...

From the beginning of this pregnancy, I have felt that Oct 5 was a
significant date, so maybe... I do know I'm not going to be pressured
into
an induction for next week, unless there is some very good evidence I
need
one. Thanks for your help!

of course it's significant, it's my birthday!

Well, that would be cool! I also love that it would 10-05-05 (or
05-10-05). I like those numbers a lot!


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005

"sharalyns" wrote in message
oups.com...
((hugs)) Joy. You've had lots of great advice so I won't add any more
to it. I just wanted to say that you are a smart woman, and you'll make
a great decision for you and this little guy. Will it be hard? Yes--the
whole situation is difficult, but you are a strong, caring, loving
woman who does her best to be informed, and that's all that anyone can
ask of you--including yourself. :-)

Thank you for the encouragement, Sharalyn!! Sometimes, I feel okay with all
of this, and then I guess I get hit by all these emotions I didn't know I
had buried.
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005