Circumcision as abuse

Todd, as a former medical assistant, I agree with you that infant
circumcision is child abuse. I've wondered if that, along with
hormonal differences, of course, is what makes boys and girls
different from each other psychologically. Maybe even sets males up
for aggressive behavior later because they then have a need to defend
themselves by presenting a good offense. Anyway, those are just my
musings about it. I have watched a baby boy strapped to a board
scream and scream in pain. After witnessing one, I could not assist
my doctor with that procedure ever again. I think you're right that
at least unanesthetized circ should be considered criminal child
abuse. In the best situation, the procedure should be left to the
individual to make his own choice after the age of consent. I'm
afraid your wild rhetorical style will doom your effectiveness, but I
wish you the best in your quest.

How can it be anything other than abuse? The physical mutilation, the
severe emotional and mental stress the child is placed under, are all
quite clearly a disturbing form of abuse.

If the child's health/life depended on it, then it would be
understandable.

What would you call it if someone came up to you and briefly informed
you (if they even bothered!) that they were going to cut a part of you
away from yourself? Because THEY had decided it would be best for you.
I cant imagine what a child must feel as all this is going on,
strangers cutting away at his body, removing a part of who he is,
whilst mummy and/or daddy are standing there watching? How messed up
is that?

That leads to the very good point you raise that this could well then
lead that child to grow up more aggressively as a form of protection
and prevention of that happening again.

Then the emotional issues for later on in life....it's truly
appalling.


Johanne-

On 1 Apr 2004 00:01:08 -0800,
(nahasafeemapetelan) wrote:

[unanesthetized circ]

Who does that ?

Such a person should be shot the very moment.


Regards,

Aribert Deckers
--
*** DER NEUE VEREIN ***

http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_p0.htm

From the perspective of an observant old grandma......
I've seen the benefits of circumcision for little boys through the years.
When they are babies it is much easier to keep them clean. As they aged and
become sexually active, the guys who were not circumcised tended to pick up
'diseases' more readily.....they were not as physically 'attractive' to
females as were circumcised men......and they were not as 'relaxed and
confident' about their sexual abilities or performance.

Perhaps not being as physically 'attractive' lead them to have sex with the
type of women who were more likely to carry sexual diseases (via multi
'unconfident' partners). Likewise, when speaking openly with uncircumcised
adult males in a safe non-sexual environment, they would express feeling a
bit 'out of the norm' and wished they'd been circumcised as babies.

No, I have no 'scientific' data or funded 'study' to reference.
I have never heard of a circumcised male who was traumatized
and wished as an adult that he'd never been circumcised. Quite the
opposite.

Coleah
====================
"Johanne" wrote in message
m...
How can it be anything other than abuse? The physical mutilation, the
severe emotional and mental stress the child is placed under, are all
quite clearly a disturbing form of abuse.

If the child's health/life depended on it, then it would be
understandable.

What would you call it if someone came up to you and briefly informed
you (if they even bothered!) that they were going to cut a part of you
away from yourself? Because THEY had decided it would be best for you.
I cant imagine what a child must feel as all this is going on,
strangers cutting away at his body, removing a part of who he is,
whilst mummy and/or daddy are standing there watching? How messed up
is that?

That leads to the very good point you raise that this could well then
lead that child to grow up more aggressively as a form of protection
and prevention of that happening again.

Then the emotional issues for later on in life....it's truly
appalling.


Johanne-

Rich.@. wrote in message
...
......and they were not as 'relaxed and
confident' about their sexual abilities or performance.

Actually circumcision causes desensitization of the penis which is not
good wrt sexual performance or enjoyment (for the male).

From a woman's perspective 'sensitive penis' are not as satisfiying for
"them" longevity-wise. If a balance is desired between enjoyment (for the
male) and a climatic ending performance (for the female) a circumcised penis
is perferred by the woman. If on the other hand a man is 'super sensitive'
and his enjoyment thus short-lived he could experience the same effect with
a box of warm liver.

No, I have no 'scientific' data or funded 'study' to reference.
I have never heard of a circumcised male who was traumatized
and wished as an adult that he'd never been circumcised. Quite the
opposite.

That is not true.

As I was speaking strictly for myself and my experience....it is.

There are many men who have decreased sensitivity in
their penis that wish they were not circumcised. This is especially
true when they get older when it is more difficult to get an erection.
Aloha,
Rich

This is a new area for me to learn and understand. I have heard of
difficult in older men with getting and maintaining erections, but thought
it was an internal hormonal or prostrate type condition. Women have
discomfort as they get older which can assist in a general lack of desire
for sex. I've seen the television commercials about erectile dysfunction
(Bob Dole), but have not taken the opportunity to educate myself from a
males perspective (probably since any overwhelming desire for sex was years
and years ago g.)

Thanks for sharing, Rich. I will do some reading for an expanded point of
view.

Coleah

For those who are interested, there was an article in Men's Health a
few years back on the topic of circumcising infants. I believe they
have it archived online.

I'd never really thought about the matter much before reading the
article. Between it and the accompanying pictures, I came away
convinced that (barring immediate medical necessity) I just didn't
have the heart to do that to a kid.

The topic came up again when I got married and became pregnant. My
husband was relatively pro-circumcision until he, too, read the
article.

I admit that uncircumcised penises look odd and unfamiliar to me, but
I'll get used to it. In the end, it's the kid's penis, not mine or his
father's. His dad and I will just be looking after it for a few years
until he's old enough to bathe and toilet himself. If he decides later
on that he wants to get it cut, he can. The reverse isn't so true.

As for whether future prospective mates will find his "little
something extra" off-putting, I'm not too worried. People are
attracted to and repelled by all sorts of traits, many of which can't
be controlled by the person who has them. Height, baldness, breast
size, skin color, body hair, and so forth. One could go nuts trying to
second guess what someone else will find attractive.

Hopefully a loving mate will see my kid as a whole person, not just a
flap of skin on the end of his penis - just as I'd hope he'd see his
mate as a whole person and not just a set of breasts. But if having a
foreskin is a deal breaker at some point, at least it's something that
can be changed - this time with anaesthetic and his knowing consent.

"nahasafeemapetelan" wrote in message
In the best situation, the procedure should be left to the
individual to make his own choice after the age of consent. I'm
afraid your wild rhetorical style will doom your effectiveness, but I
wish you the best in your quest.
=======================
I agree 100%! I was talked into having this done by the hospital personal
(and my mother) to my own son back in the 1960s. To think how he must have
suffered.... and all for nothing!
--
Kim
The most amazing BS artists there a
http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/naturopathi.../Quackery.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Johanne" wrote in message
m...

Then the emotional issues for later on in life....it's truly
appalling.
==========================
It is appalling! What's most appalling is how many centuries this had been
going on! It's only now that anyone is asking questions and wondering what
the hell they were doing..... sickening!
--
Kim
Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$
Of all the toxic goodies you do not pass
Globs of gunk and the mucus you store
Parasites, flukes and worms galore
So take a colonic so you can pass
All these nasties from your paracitized @$$.....
The most amazing BS artists there a
http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/naturopathi.../Quackery.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

X-No-Archive: yes

Rich.@. wrote in message
...
There can be many reasons but decreased sensitivity is one of them.
Men have a hard (no pun intended) enough time, when they age, in
getting an erection, that any decrease in sensitivity is going to work
against them.
====================
I have a close male friend who is 55 years old. Both he and his wife
confided in me several times about their sexual difficulties. He would need
Viagra about 2 hours BEFORE sex to get an erection. By the time the pill
worked, often one or both had lost interest in sex. The spontaneity was
gone. Sex was becoming a chore instead of pleasure and fun. There were
times the Viagra didn't work at all! Their sex-life was the pits. Due
mostly to other reason she finally left him last year. He was very worried
the next women would find him undesirable because of his erectile
dysfunction. I could understand that. His self-esteem was down the
toilet.

Enter a YOUNGER and much thinner, prettier woman than his wife was. He
recently met a 41 year old divorcee who looks about 30! (I don't know if
she had a face lift, or facial surgery). After a very brief time they
became intimate. Despite his fears he had NO ERECTION PROBLEM with this
younger women!

What does something like this tell us? This is the THIRD man I've known who
suddenly lost his erection problems with a new partner! Are many of these
older men with a problem just tired of their wives? They don't find then
sexually attractive or stimulating anymore? Why does a new partner suddenly
cause them to function normally again? The other 2 men were with new women
but woman their same age - not younger women. I wonder if any research has
been done on this?
--
Kim
Colonics to clean out your stuffed up @$$
Of all the toxic goodies you do not pass
Globs of gunk and the mucus you store
Parasites, flukes and worms galore
So take a colonic so you can pass
All these nasties from your paracitized @$$.....
The most amazing BS artists there a
http://members.rogers.com/kirkkolas/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/naturopathi.../Quackery.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For those who are interested, a link to an archive of the Men's Health
article on circumcision I referred to in an earlier posting:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

Warning: contains photos some may find disturbing.