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OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelle



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 29th 06, 09:52 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelle

Michael posted link
http://tinyurl.com/yeat4e

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html
Opening Statements Given In Caged Kids Trial
Huron Co. Couple Faces Child Endangering Charges
UPDATED: 7:18 pm EST November 28, 2006

NORWALK, Ohio -- A couple on trial for putting some of their 11
adopted, special-needs children in cages are guilty only of loving
them, a defense attorney said Tuesday in his opening statement.

"Eleven is a strain, a huge strain, but they did it for the right
reason," said Ken Myers, attorney for Sharen Gravelle who, along with
her husband, Michael Gravelle, is charged with 16 counts of felony
child endangering and eight misdemeanor child endangering charges.

The children ranged in age from 1 to 14 when authorities removed them
in September 2005 from the Gravelles' home in rural Wakeman about 60
miles west of Cleveland. The youngsters were placed in foster care last
fall.

The couple, who lost custody in March, have repeatedly said the
enclosures, equipped with alarms, were necessary to keep the children
from harming themselves or one another. The children have problems such
as fetal alcohol syndrome and a disorder that involves eating nonfood
items.

Huron County Prosecutor Russell Leffler told jurors not to get hung up
on semantics.

"It's about chicken wire and wooden boards, being literally cooped up,
hotter than blazes in summer, an amazingly shrill alarm and little
fingers trying to tear wire," Leffler said.

Leffler described punishments that the children allegedly received,
including being confined to the cages, being forced to eat peanut
butter for weeks and having their heads dunked in a toilet.

Myers defended the use of the enclosed beds, which he said were no
smaller than an average bunk bed. He said they were necessary to
protect the children from getting into trouble at night.

"Some of the kids thought they (the cages) were cool because it felt
like being in a fortress," Myers said.

Social worker Jo Johnson testified that she visited the Gravelles' home
Sept. 9, 2005, after receiving a tip about the cages. She saw no
physical signs of abuse on the children, but determined the cages,
which she likened to "slave quarters," constituted abuse.

A photo of eight of the children was taken before they were removed
that day. It shows a couple of them smiling and all dressed
appropriately in shorts, T-shirts and tank tops. Most were playing
outside when Johnson toured the house. One boy rode a bike.

Michael Gravelle's attorney, Richard Drucker, in an aggressive cross
examination, raised his voice and asked Johnson: "Was he in chains when
he was riding on that bike?"

Johnson answered, "No."

She noticed a strong urine odor upstairs where the children slept and
saw one girl in a room with a door made of wooden slats.

Johnson described photos of the red and blue painted cages for the
jury, including one cage that had some wooden patchwork done by Michael
Gravelle.

"When the children tried to get out, he put the wood slabs up so they
could not get out," Johnson said.

She testified that there was little bedding inside the cages. Drucker
countered that testimony by again showing jurors the photo of the
children, who were standing in front of sheets and blankets hanging on
a clothes line. Defense attorneys say there was no bedding in the
enclosures because it was laundry day. Asked by Drucker why she
described the cages as "slave quarters" she replied, "The way they were
piled on top of each other. There was not a light source. It was very
dark."

Myers, during his opening statement, suggested that she came up with
the comparison because she and the children are black and the Gravelles
are white.

Myers told jurors that the children were in poor shape when Michael,
57, and Sharen Gravelle, 58, adopted them and that Huron County knew
about the cages for years but did nothing.

Myers has said Huron County authorities have fueled a media bias in the
case by calling the structures cages instead of enclosed beds.

Leffler told jurors that he would show during the trial that Michael
Gravelle once commented that there was good money in adopting
special-needs children and that he thought about opening an orphanage,
saying he was Moses.

Leffler said two of the children have blossomed since being removed
from the Gravelle home and the others also have improved. Myers said
they still have behavioral problems.

The Gravelles, who acknowledge spanking the children, also are accused
by the prosecution of leaving the children outside in the cold, hosing
them down and forcing one boy to live in the bathroom for nearly three
months.

"It must have been a terrible 81 days for him," Leffler said. "He took
his meals there." The Gravelles deny those allegations.

If convicted, they face one to five years in prison and a maximum fine
of $10,000 for each felony count.

Video Sharen Takes Stand Social Worker Couple Speaks Out
Aunt: Neice Was Malnourished Search Warrant

Images: New Photos Released
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Cages
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Home
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Children
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Parents' Statement
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4969663/detail.html

One Caged Child Adopted From Cuyahoga County
More Info Being Revealed About Family

POSTED: 7:40 pm EDT September 13, 2005

CLARKFIELD TOWNSHIP, Ohio -- More information is being revealed about
the family that kept nine children in cages.

NewsChannel5 reported one of the 11 children was adopted from the
Cuyahoga County Job and Family Services five years ago.

It's unknown where the other children were adopted from.

A Cuyahoga County official said all the proper procedures were followed
during that adoption. He also said that records included a note that
recommended the Gravelles as a fine family.

Officials said deputies were called to the home twice in the last five
years: once to settle a neighbor dispute in 2000, and last year when a
12-year-old boy was upset and ran away for several hours. He was found
down the road.

The family has lived in Huron County for 10 years.

A boy born with HIV was adopted as an infant in 2001 through the
Cuyahoga County Department of Children and Family Services, the
agency's director Jim McCafferty said. The Gravelles received a subsidy
of at least $500 a month.

The private agencies who reviewed the couple's home life before the
adoption gave them "glowing reports," McCafferty said.

Payments are meant to encourage adoption by ensuring families can
maintain their standard of living, said Rhonda Abban, chief of adoption
services for the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services.

"There's no followup because you're giving that family the money so
they can incorporate that child into their life," she said.

Leah Hunter, who lives two houses away, said she often saw the children
walking down the road.

"They looked OK. They hardly ever wore shoes but I'm a country girl and
for me that's normal. You can drive by and see them playing in the
yard, or from my house you could hear them playing," Hunter said.

Sommers said one of the smaller buildings on the property was used as a
schoolhouse.

Hunter's father-in-law, Holey Hunter, who also lives down the street,
said two of the teenage children helped him bale hay this summer. "They
weren't bad kids. I was tickled to give them some spending money," he
said.


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html

Gravelles Release Statement
"Many of the statements made concerning this matter are inaccurate or
exaggerated. Clearly, there is another side to this story. The
Gravelles love and miss their children and are devastated and
broken-hearted with worry since their children have been ripped away
from them. Their motives and intentions were good. They would never
harm a child. The children love their parents and want to come home.
The children have been out of control and have caused serious harm to
themselves and each other. In order to prevent further injury, Mr.
Gravelle constructed enclosures around their twin bunk beds to provide
a secure space to keep them safe while the parents were asleep at
night. These have been characterized as cages, however, that was not
their function. They have no lock, latch, or provision for them. There
was no cruelty, excessive restraint or risk of harm. The children were
free to leave their beds anytime they wanted. There is a simple buzzer
on the door, solely as a safety precaution to wake the parents if the
children got out of bed at night."

David Sherman, Attorney

  #2  
Old December 3rd 06, 08:38 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelle

Donald! Do you sympathize with these people for
"caging" the kids?

Greegor wrote:
Michael posted link
http://tinyurl.com/yeat4e

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html
Opening Statements Given In Caged Kids Trial
Huron Co. Couple Faces Child Endangering Charges
UPDATED: 7:18 pm EST November 28, 2006

NORWALK, Ohio -- A couple on trial for putting some of their 11
adopted, special-needs children in cages are guilty only of loving
them, a defense attorney said Tuesday in his opening statement.

"Eleven is a strain, a huge strain, but they did it for the right
reason," said Ken Myers, attorney for Sharen Gravelle who, along with
her husband, Michael Gravelle, is charged with 16 counts of felony
child endangering and eight misdemeanor child endangering charges.

The children ranged in age from 1 to 14 when authorities removed them
in September 2005 from the Gravelles' home in rural Wakeman about 60
miles west of Cleveland. The youngsters were placed in foster care last
fall.

The couple, who lost custody in March, have repeatedly said the
enclosures, equipped with alarms, were necessary to keep the children
from harming themselves or one another. The children have problems such
as fetal alcohol syndrome and a disorder that involves eating nonfood
items.

Huron County Prosecutor Russell Leffler told jurors not to get hung up
on semantics.

"It's about chicken wire and wooden boards, being literally cooped up,
hotter than blazes in summer, an amazingly shrill alarm and little
fingers trying to tear wire," Leffler said.

Leffler described punishments that the children allegedly received,
including being confined to the cages, being forced to eat peanut
butter for weeks and having their heads dunked in a toilet.

Myers defended the use of the enclosed beds, which he said were no
smaller than an average bunk bed. He said they were necessary to
protect the children from getting into trouble at night.

"Some of the kids thought they (the cages) were cool because it felt
like being in a fortress," Myers said.

Social worker Jo Johnson testified that she visited the Gravelles' home
Sept. 9, 2005, after receiving a tip about the cages. She saw no
physical signs of abuse on the children, but determined the cages,
which she likened to "slave quarters," constituted abuse.

A photo of eight of the children was taken before they were removed
that day. It shows a couple of them smiling and all dressed
appropriately in shorts, T-shirts and tank tops. Most were playing
outside when Johnson toured the house. One boy rode a bike.

Michael Gravelle's attorney, Richard Drucker, in an aggressive cross
examination, raised his voice and asked Johnson: "Was he in chains when
he was riding on that bike?"

Johnson answered, "No."

She noticed a strong urine odor upstairs where the children slept and
saw one girl in a room with a door made of wooden slats.

Johnson described photos of the red and blue painted cages for the
jury, including one cage that had some wooden patchwork done by Michael
Gravelle.

"When the children tried to get out, he put the wood slabs up so they
could not get out," Johnson said.

She testified that there was little bedding inside the cages. Drucker
countered that testimony by again showing jurors the photo of the
children, who were standing in front of sheets and blankets hanging on
a clothes line. Defense attorneys say there was no bedding in the
enclosures because it was laundry day. Asked by Drucker why she
described the cages as "slave quarters" she replied, "The way they were
piled on top of each other. There was not a light source. It was very
dark."

Myers, during his opening statement, suggested that she came up with
the comparison because she and the children are black and the Gravelles
are white.

Myers told jurors that the children were in poor shape when Michael,
57, and Sharen Gravelle, 58, adopted them and that Huron County knew
about the cages for years but did nothing.

Myers has said Huron County authorities have fueled a media bias in the
case by calling the structures cages instead of enclosed beds.

Leffler told jurors that he would show during the trial that Michael
Gravelle once commented that there was good money in adopting
special-needs children and that he thought about opening an orphanage,
saying he was Moses.

Leffler said two of the children have blossomed since being removed
from the Gravelle home and the others also have improved. Myers said
they still have behavioral problems.

The Gravelles, who acknowledge spanking the children, also are accused
by the prosecution of leaving the children outside in the cold, hosing
them down and forcing one boy to live in the bathroom for nearly three
months.

"It must have been a terrible 81 days for him," Leffler said. "He took
his meals there." The Gravelles deny those allegations.

If convicted, they face one to five years in prison and a maximum fine
of $10,000 for each felony count.

Video Sharen Takes Stand Social Worker Couple Speaks Out
Aunt: Neice Was Malnourished Search Warrant

Images: New Photos Released
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Cages
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Home
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Children
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Parents' Statement
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4969663/detail.html

One Caged Child Adopted From Cuyahoga County
More Info Being Revealed About Family

POSTED: 7:40 pm EDT September 13, 2005

CLARKFIELD TOWNSHIP, Ohio -- More information is being revealed about
the family that kept nine children in cages.

NewsChannel5 reported one of the 11 children was adopted from the
Cuyahoga County Job and Family Services five years ago.

It's unknown where the other children were adopted from.

A Cuyahoga County official said all the proper procedures were followed
during that adoption. He also said that records included a note that
recommended the Gravelles as a fine family.

Officials said deputies were called to the home twice in the last five
years: once to settle a neighbor dispute in 2000, and last year when a
12-year-old boy was upset and ran away for several hours. He was found
down the road.

The family has lived in Huron County for 10 years.

A boy born with HIV was adopted as an infant in 2001 through the
Cuyahoga County Department of Children and Family Services, the
agency's director Jim McCafferty said. The Gravelles received a subsidy
of at least $500 a month.

The private agencies who reviewed the couple's home life before the
adoption gave them "glowing reports," McCafferty said.

Payments are meant to encourage adoption by ensuring families can
maintain their standard of living, said Rhonda Abban, chief of adoption
services for the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services.

"There's no followup because you're giving that family the money so
they can incorporate that child into their life," she said.

Leah Hunter, who lives two houses away, said she often saw the children
walking down the road.

"They looked OK. They hardly ever wore shoes but I'm a country girl and
for me that's normal. You can drive by and see them playing in the
yard, or from my house you could hear them playing," Hunter said.

Sommers said one of the smaller buildings on the property was used as a
schoolhouse.

Hunter's father-in-law, Holey Hunter, who also lives down the street,
said two of the teenage children helped him bale hay this summer. "They
weren't bad kids. I was tickled to give them some spending money," he
said.


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html

Gravelles Release Statement
"Many of the statements made concerning this matter are inaccurate or
exaggerated. Clearly, there is another side to this story. The
Gravelles love and miss their children and are devastated and
broken-hearted with worry since their children have been ripped away
from them. Their motives and intentions were good. They would never
harm a child. The children love their parents and want to come home.
The children have been out of control and have caused serious harm to
themselves and each other. In order to prevent further injury, Mr.
Gravelle constructed enclosures around their twin bunk beds to provide
a secure space to keep them safe while the parents were asleep at
night. These have been characterized as cages, however, that was not
their function. They have no lock, latch, or provision for them. There
was no cruelty, excessive restraint or risk of harm. The children were
free to leave their beds anytime they wanted. There is a simple buzzer
on the door, solely as a safety precaution to wake the parents if the
children got out of bed at night."

David Sherman, Attorney


  #3  
Old December 3rd 06, 04:41 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelle


Greegor wrote:
Kane! Do you sympathize with these people for
"caging" the kids?


I've posted at least three times now I'd prefer they and foster parents
like them go to a place I don't even believe in...hell.

Why do you continue to ask me such stupid questions, Gagg?

Do you sympathize with parents that beat their children and call it
spanking?

Now there's a question you've avoided repeatedly.

0:-]



Greegor wrote:
Michael posted link
http://tinyurl.com/yeat4e

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html
Opening Statements Given In Caged Kids Trial
Huron Co. Couple Faces Child Endangering Charges
UPDATED: 7:18 pm EST November 28, 2006

NORWALK, Ohio -- A couple on trial for putting some of their 11
adopted, special-needs children in cages are guilty only of loving
them, a defense attorney said Tuesday in his opening statement.

"Eleven is a strain, a huge strain, but they did it for the right
reason," said Ken Myers, attorney for Sharen Gravelle who, along with
her husband, Michael Gravelle, is charged with 16 counts of felony
child endangering and eight misdemeanor child endangering charges.

The children ranged in age from 1 to 14 when authorities removed them
in September 2005 from the Gravelles' home in rural Wakeman about 60
miles west of Cleveland. The youngsters were placed in foster care last
fall.

The couple, who lost custody in March, have repeatedly said the
enclosures, equipped with alarms, were necessary to keep the children
from harming themselves or one another. The children have problems such
as fetal alcohol syndrome and a disorder that involves eating nonfood
items.

Huron County Prosecutor Russell Leffler told jurors not to get hung up
on semantics.

"It's about chicken wire and wooden boards, being literally cooped up,
hotter than blazes in summer, an amazingly shrill alarm and little
fingers trying to tear wire," Leffler said.

Leffler described punishments that the children allegedly received,
including being confined to the cages, being forced to eat peanut
butter for weeks and having their heads dunked in a toilet.

Myers defended the use of the enclosed beds, which he said were no
smaller than an average bunk bed. He said they were necessary to
protect the children from getting into trouble at night.

"Some of the kids thought they (the cages) were cool because it felt
like being in a fortress," Myers said.

Social worker Jo Johnson testified that she visited the Gravelles' home
Sept. 9, 2005, after receiving a tip about the cages. She saw no
physical signs of abuse on the children, but determined the cages,
which she likened to "slave quarters," constituted abuse.

A photo of eight of the children was taken before they were removed
that day. It shows a couple of them smiling and all dressed
appropriately in shorts, T-shirts and tank tops. Most were playing
outside when Johnson toured the house. One boy rode a bike.

Michael Gravelle's attorney, Richard Drucker, in an aggressive cross
examination, raised his voice and asked Johnson: "Was he in chains when
he was riding on that bike?"

Johnson answered, "No."

She noticed a strong urine odor upstairs where the children slept and
saw one girl in a room with a door made of wooden slats.

Johnson described photos of the red and blue painted cages for the
jury, including one cage that had some wooden patchwork done by Michael
Gravelle.

"When the children tried to get out, he put the wood slabs up so they
could not get out," Johnson said.

She testified that there was little bedding inside the cages. Drucker
countered that testimony by again showing jurors the photo of the
children, who were standing in front of sheets and blankets hanging on
a clothes line. Defense attorneys say there was no bedding in the
enclosures because it was laundry day. Asked by Drucker why she
described the cages as "slave quarters" she replied, "The way they were
piled on top of each other. There was not a light source. It was very
dark."

Myers, during his opening statement, suggested that she came up with
the comparison because she and the children are black and the Gravelles
are white.

Myers told jurors that the children were in poor shape when Michael,
57, and Sharen Gravelle, 58, adopted them and that Huron County knew
about the cages for years but did nothing.

Myers has said Huron County authorities have fueled a media bias in the
case by calling the structures cages instead of enclosed beds.

Leffler told jurors that he would show during the trial that Michael
Gravelle once commented that there was good money in adopting
special-needs children and that he thought about opening an orphanage,
saying he was Moses.

Leffler said two of the children have blossomed since being removed
from the Gravelle home and the others also have improved. Myers said
they still have behavioral problems.

The Gravelles, who acknowledge spanking the children, also are accused
by the prosecution of leaving the children outside in the cold, hosing
them down and forcing one boy to live in the bathroom for nearly three
months.

"It must have been a terrible 81 days for him," Leffler said. "He took
his meals there." The Gravelles deny those allegations.

If convicted, they face one to five years in prison and a maximum fine
of $10,000 for each felony count.

Video Sharen Takes Stand Social Worker Couple Speaks Out
Aunt: Neice Was Malnourished Search Warrant

Images: New Photos Released
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Cages
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Home
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Images: Children
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10417420/detail.html#

Parents' Statement
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4969663/detail.html

One Caged Child Adopted From Cuyahoga County
More Info Being Revealed About Family

POSTED: 7:40 pm EDT September 13, 2005

CLARKFIELD TOWNSHIP, Ohio -- More information is being revealed about
the family that kept nine children in cages.

NewsChannel5 reported one of the 11 children was adopted from the
Cuyahoga County Job and Family Services five years ago.

It's unknown where the other children were adopted from.

A Cuyahoga County official said all the proper procedures were followed
during that adoption. He also said that records included a note that
recommended the Gravelles as a fine family.

Officials said deputies were called to the home twice in the last five
years: once to settle a neighbor dispute in 2000, and last year when a
12-year-old boy was upset and ran away for several hours. He was found
down the road.

The family has lived in Huron County for 10 years.

A boy born with HIV was adopted as an infant in 2001 through the
Cuyahoga County Department of Children and Family Services, the
agency's director Jim McCafferty said. The Gravelles received a subsidy
of at least $500 a month.

The private agencies who reviewed the couple's home life before the
adoption gave them "glowing reports," McCafferty said.

Payments are meant to encourage adoption by ensuring families can
maintain their standard of living, said Rhonda Abban, chief of adoption
services for the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services.

"There's no followup because you're giving that family the money so
they can incorporate that child into their life," she said.

Leah Hunter, who lives two houses away, said she often saw the children
walking down the road.

"They looked OK. They hardly ever wore shoes but I'm a country girl and
for me that's normal. You can drive by and see them playing in the
yard, or from my house you could hear them playing," Hunter said.

Sommers said one of the smaller buildings on the property was used as a
schoolhouse.

Hunter's father-in-law, Holey Hunter, who also lives down the street,
said two of the teenage children helped him bale hay this summer. "They
weren't bad kids. I was tickled to give them some spending money," he
said.


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4974922/detail.html

Gravelles Release Statement
"Many of the statements made concerning this matter are inaccurate or
exaggerated. Clearly, there is another side to this story. The
Gravelles love and miss their children and are devastated and
broken-hearted with worry since their children have been ripped away
from them. Their motives and intentions were good. They would never
harm a child. The children love their parents and want to come home.
The children have been out of control and have caused serious harm to
themselves and each other. In order to prevent further injury, Mr.
Gravelle constructed enclosures around their twin bunk beds to provide
a secure space to keep them safe while the parents were asleep at
night. These have been characterized as cages, however, that was not
their function. They have no lock, latch, or provision for them. There
was no cruelty, excessive restraint or risk of harm. The children were
free to leave their beds anytime they wanted. There is a simple buzzer
on the door, solely as a safety precaution to wake the parents if the
children got out of bed at night."

David Sherman, Attorney


  #4  
Old December 15th 06, 01:07 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelle

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10541896/detail.html

Social Worker: Handling Kids Hard For Pair Accused Of Caging Them
Parents charged with forcing some of their 11 special-needs adoptive
children to sleep in cages managed to improve the youngsters'
aggressive and destructive behavior with the enclosed bunks, according
to a social worker's testimony presented Thursday.

Elaine Thompson, an independent social worker who is also charged in
the case, did not appear at the trial of Michael and Sharen Gravelle,
but her testimony from last year's custody hearing was read to jurors.

Thompson's testimony indicated that the Gravelles called her in 2000
and said they were trying to control rage and anger in the children,
some of whom suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome and an attachment
disorder which makes it difficult for them to build emotional bonds
with others.

"They had been struggling by themselves with these behaviors," Thompson
said.

The Gravelles, who lost custody of the children in March, are charged
with 16 counts of felony child endangering and eight misdemeanor child
endangering counts. If convicted, they face one to five years in prison
and a maximum fine of $10,000 for each felony count.

The couple said they built enclosures to keep the children from harming
themselves and each other and stop their night wanderings. They deny
abusing the children.

Prosecutors don't buy the Gravelles' reasoning and say the couple
endangered the children and that the cages were urine-stained and
lacked bedding. Their case included testimony from sheriff's deputies,
psychologists, foster parents and some of the youngsters, including a
boy who said he was forced to live in a bathroom for 81 days.

Before alarms were added to the unlocked bed doors, some children would
leave their bunks and play with electric sockets, defecate out the
window or dangle a sibling from a window, Thompson said.

"These are all things they did before the alarm," she testified.

When some of the children learned to reach through the bunk slabs and
disable the alarm, chicken wire was added to the cages, Thompson said.

Thompson said the Gravelles explained that the cages were meant to
provide a safe, nighttime environment for the children.

According to Thompson, some of the children came from homes where
drinking, yelling and abuse increased in the evening so "nighttime was
not a particularly safe time."

The children's behavior improved with use of the cages, Thompson
testified. "Yes, it did happen. It took about two years," she
testified.

Thompson's testimony was read by her attorney, Marilu Laubenthal, who
said outside of court that Thompson would have invoked her Fifth
Amendment right against self-incrimination if called to the witness
stand.

Thompson is charged with failing to report abuse and complicity to
child endangering. Her trial is scheduled for Feb. 6. She has said the
enclosures were needed to ensure the children's safety.

A psychologist appearing for the defense, Sandra McPherson of Cleveland
Heights, said using the cages to restrain the unruly behavior could be
appropriate.

"These were extreme behaviors," said McPherson, who mentioned the
children hurting each other, wandering around at night and smearing
feces.

The cages were the least restrictive alternative given the number of
children and the severity of their behavior, she testified.

Addressing the allegation that a boy was forced to sleep in a bathtub
because he wet his bed, McPherson said the tactic would be useful on
focusing his attention on how to use the bathroom.

But on cross-examination, she said that 81 straight days could be
considered abusive and she would question whether the tactic was
working.

Defense attorneys were expected to finish questioning witnesses Friday.
Huron County Common Pleas Judge Earl R. McGimpsey told jurors to expect
closing arguments and possible deliberations on Tuesday. No court
session was scheduled for Monday.

  #5  
Old December 22nd 06, 01:01 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.dads-rights.unmoderated,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default Dave Moore and Ken Pangborn

This is a little game I call "Make the agency sucks squirm".
Please remember that they want to pretend their decisions
are objective. Notice that these people can't even make
a blanket statement that caging these kids was wrong.
I think you KNOW that if a parent did this the agencies
would not be quite so hesitant to condemn it outright.

A county in Ohio actually paid for at least one of these
cages to be custom built, never labeled a "cage" of course.

Both of the two Ohio "caged kids" stories did involve
regular ongoing visitation by social workers to their
respective homes. (see related story in old background thread)

My point is NOT about the cages being either right or wrong,
but about the DOUBLE STANDARD that if a parent has
a child with these SAME sorts of problems, they are NOT
free to use such means, but that when the ""experts"" (sic)
themselves are confronted with the problem they turned a
blind eye to it (inspections) until the issue exploded on them.



Old background (more detailed news stories, etc.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...8121d8/?hl=en#

New background
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...1e1546/?hl=en#

Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
1 Michael Dec 21
Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged Kids Case
Resumes Deliberations Early
2 0:- Dec 21
Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
3 Greegor Dec 21
4 0:- Dec 21
5 0:- Dec 21
6 Dan Sullivan Dec 21

1 From: Michael - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 8:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

POSTED: 7:00 am EST December 21, 2006
UPDATED: 9:05 am EST December 21, 2006
NORWALK, Ohio -- The jury in the northern Ohio "caged kids" trial will
get
an early start this morning as deliberations continue into a third day.



Jurors in Norwalk are considering the child endangering and abuse
charges
against Sharen and Michael Gravelle. They're accused of making some of
their 11 adopted children sleep in wood and wire cages.


The jurors deliberated about two hours Tuesday and all day Wednesday.
They
got permission from the judge to resume at 7:30 a.m. Thursday --
one-and-a-half hours early.


The defense says the Gravelles made enclosed bunks to protect the
special
needs youngsters from their sometimes-violent siblings.
- --
Michael (GN)


Subject changed: Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged
Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
2 From: 0:- - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 10:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

This has been an interesting story to follow.

The most horrendous cases of foster and adoption child abuse come out
of these "warehouses," the state sets up and forces CPS to serve.

The cost to institutionalize children who are dangerous, to themselves
and each other, is extreme. The alternative CHOSEN BY LEGISLATORS,
Michael, not by CPS, is to support the lower cost placement with
ordinary citizens.

This is the kind of results we see.

Another case, just a few years ago in Oregon, comes to mind. There a
similar family of adopted and foster children were NOT adequately
confined and there was an horrendeous amount of abuse, both physical
and sexual, between the children.

The parents were "maintained" by CPS doing what CPS is mandated to do
by the legislature.

When you folks learn about the system, instead of your strange
delusional views that all evil resides in CPS, you might get as far
back as the law makers, and who elects them, and what they lobby for.

Low cost, Michael. Hide the problem, Michael. CPS workers do yoeman
work, considering.

Go to the source of the problem. Start with CA/N parents, then to the
legislature that is supposed to make law and public policy to deal with

them.

Note that they also demand CPS be a child protection agency for
children that are disabled as these children seem to be.

It's a population that I did not work with professionally, but knew
well from observations and practicum when I was a raw lad in school.

And continued to hear about from collegues who did work with them.
Institutionalized children.

And universally, whether CPS workers, mental health professionals, or
professionals working with disabled children, the talk was the
same....how can we get services for these children RATHER THAN SEND
THEM INTO fake cheapo situations where they are warehoused with people
not equiped or trained to deal with them safely and effectively.

We all knew where the blame lie. The people, not unlike you, Michael,
in denial, and looking to blame others for what YOU are unwilling to
fix.

There's a reason I ask for more money for children. BECAUSE THERE NEVER

HAS BEEN ENOUGH. All children's programs, and nearly all social support

programs (eldrely, mentally ill, developmentally disabled) come badly
underfunded in this country. With the "make do" that results in cases
like the one you have posted.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Kane

Subject changed: Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early

3 From: Greegor - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:33 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?

Please be concise!


4 From: 0:- (AKA Kane) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:46 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Read my comments, point out what you think means one thing or the other

and ask your question in that context. Open ended babbling like that
above is just useless nonsense.

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


On complex issues failing to cover enough detail leave YOU will lots of

wiggle room to make accusations, innuendo, and insinutation, Greg.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


That woudl be a case by case situation.

Where the couple failed was to seek the help they needed to deal with
such disabled children. I've worked with children that were not
"disabled" but were so psychologically damaged that the patient to
staff ratio had to be one to one, and more.


Certain boys could not be alone with another boy, not even walk up the
stairs with him unaccompanied by an adult. Sexual attacks you see.

You are too ignorant to discuss this with, but I'm patient. Possibly
one day I will have imparted enough knowledge to you that you will
begin to have an awakening.


IS there a double standard when it comes to this?



No. It is a case by case matter. I'd expect a bio parent, a foster
parent, or an adoptive parent to use other means than caging.

My argument, that you have carefully done away with because you can't
handle it, is the political issues that come right back to the
public...folks like you that refuse to deal with reality and the
terrible burden that abusive and neglectful parents lay on society.


Of course we could let them just torture and kill to their hearts
content, now couldn't we?

Please be concise!


No. I will take as much space and words to tell it like it is when and
were I feel like it.

If you don't care for it, don't read it.

You don't remember much anyway, especially if it is in conflict with
your dearest biases or damages the false self image you have that you
are 'okay.'

You aren't Greg. People such as you are dangerous to individuals
(Reference advice on FightCPS) and society in general because of a
value system that denigrates children to nothing but possessions
without rights of their own.

Get well, or stay sick, but I'll continue to post the truth about this
problem and about your kind as I see fit. Long or short, concise or
verbose.

You can shove that bull**** self importance of your's straight up your
ass and have it for dinner.

0:-

5 From: 0:- ( AKA Kane ) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:01 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Can you think of or remember a single instance where I have defended
anyone, foster, adoptive, or bio parent, for mistreating children?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


Simple enough for you? Answer the question above.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


See above. And answer the question. You are insinuating again, without
proof.

Put up the proof then accuse. Just as we do with you. Evidence.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


From you, yes. Because you do not put these same kinds of insinuating
questions to your buddies.

Please be concise!


Concise enough for you, Ahole?

It's a Hawaiian word. Honest. Look it up.

R R R R RRRRR R R...what a pitiful piece of dreck you are.

0:-

6 From: Dan Sullivan - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:16 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?


Which was?

Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


What do you think, Greg?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


How many words?

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


Depends on the situation.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


What is "this?"

Please be concise!


Why?

You want less than a complete answer?

  #6  
Old December 22nd 06, 02:22 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.dads-rights.unmoderated,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Dan Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,687
Default Dave Moore and Ken Pangborn


Greegor wrote:
This is a little game I call "Make the agency sucks squirm".


Impressive... NOT!!!

  #7  
Old December 22nd 06, 03:26 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.dads-rights.unmoderated,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default Dave Moore and Ken Pangborn


Greegor wrote:
This is a little game I call "Make the agency sucks squirm".


R R R ....OH, good one, Greg.

The only squirming you can produce is that which goes with trying to
hold in laughter long enough to try and compose a serious response to
your delusional rants.

Please remember that they want to pretend their decisions
are objective.


Really? Where have I said that? Presuming you are pretending to claim R
R R R RR ...that I'm an "agency suck."

Notice that these people can't even make
a blanket statement that caging these kids was wrong.


Of course not. We don't know. I don't have the evidence in front of me.
I can't see the cages.

I did say, however, you squirming little liar, that I would not approve
of it from either foster/adopt families or bio families. How is it you
just lied again, Greg?

Don't you know how to argue any other way than making up the story as
you go?

In fact, here's my reply to that very question when you asked it three
up from here in the thread and I responded two up from here in the
thread"

"Greegor wrote:
Kane! Do you sympathize with these people for
"caging" the kids?


I've posted at least three times now I'd prefer they and foster parents
like them go to a place I don't even believe in...hell.

Why do you continue to ask me such stupid questions, Gagg?

Do you sympathize with parents that beat their children and call it
spanking?

Now there's a question you've avoided repeatedly.

0:-]"

See how you LIE, Greg? See how you LIE?

I think you KNOW that if a parent did this the agencies
would not be quite so hesitant to condemn it outright.


Bull****. They cut parents a great deal more slack overall than foster
parents.

A foster parent can't even spank and leave no mark, Greg. Caught at it
they can be charged with assault. The very least that happens are that
the children are ALL removed, not just the spanked child. You are so
full of bull.

A county in Ohio actually paid for at least one of these
cages to be custom built, never labeled a "cage" of course.


Could be. Tell us, how would you handle a child that wandered at night,
smeared feces, sexually assaulted other children?

Did you know that a doctor can prescribe restraints in such cases...but
that in most states it's illegal for a foster parent to use mechanical
restraints at all? Unless they have a doctors express permission via
prescription to do so.

Both of the two Ohio "caged kids" stories did involve
regular ongoing visitation by social workers to their
respective homes. (see related story in old background thread)


Yep. I've a feeling we are missing some pieces to the puzzle via
sensationalizing by the media. All they have leave out, opps! is that
there was in fact a doctors prescription.

My point is NOT about the cages being either right or wrong,
but about the DOUBLE STANDARD that if a parent has
a child with these SAME sorts of problems, they are NOT
free to use such means, but that when the ""experts"" (sic)
themselves are confronted with the problem they turned a
blind eye to it (inspections) until the issue exploded on them.


Provide one instance where a parent used caging and the state removed
their children for it.

Go ahead.

You ****ant, refused to answer MY question even while I was answering
yours in the same post as my question.

What a fraud you are. Unethical, immoral and stupid to boot.

Old background (more detailed news stories, etc.) Don't you think people can see you writing here, or are you counting on being such a reprobate they'll give up on you in disgust and forget you?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...8121d8/?hl=en#

New background


What's all this that follows. You asked questions, you got answered
then you again refuse to respond to those questions.

Are you some kind of saint above reproach that YOUR comments are
unquestionable, and only others are?

You are pig ****, nothing more.

0:-]


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...1e1546/?hl=en#

Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
1 Michael Dec 21
Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged Kids Case
Resumes Deliberations Early
2 0:- Dec 21
Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
3 Greegor Dec 21
4 0:- Dec 21
5 0:- Dec 21
6 Dan Sullivan Dec 21

1 From: Michael - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 8:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

POSTED: 7:00 am EST December 21, 2006
UPDATED: 9:05 am EST December 21, 2006
NORWALK, Ohio -- The jury in the northern Ohio "caged kids" trial will
get
an early start this morning as deliberations continue into a third day.



Jurors in Norwalk are considering the child endangering and abuse
charges
against Sharen and Michael Gravelle. They're accused of making some of
their 11 adopted children sleep in wood and wire cages.


The jurors deliberated about two hours Tuesday and all day Wednesday.
They
got permission from the judge to resume at 7:30 a.m. Thursday --
one-and-a-half hours early.


The defense says the Gravelles made enclosed bunks to protect the
special
needs youngsters from their sometimes-violent siblings.
- --
Michael (GN)


Subject changed: Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged
Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
2 From: 0:- - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 10:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

This has been an interesting story to follow.

The most horrendous cases of foster and adoption child abuse come out
of these "warehouses," the state sets up and forces CPS to serve.

The cost to institutionalize children who are dangerous, to themselves
and each other, is extreme. The alternative CHOSEN BY LEGISLATORS,
Michael, not by CPS, is to support the lower cost placement with
ordinary citizens.

This is the kind of results we see.

Another case, just a few years ago in Oregon, comes to mind. There a
similar family of adopted and foster children were NOT adequately
confined and there was an horrendeous amount of abuse, both physical
and sexual, between the children.

The parents were "maintained" by CPS doing what CPS is mandated to do
by the legislature.

When you folks learn about the system, instead of your strange
delusional views that all evil resides in CPS, you might get as far
back as the law makers, and who elects them, and what they lobby for.

Low cost, Michael. Hide the problem, Michael. CPS workers do yoeman
work, considering.

Go to the source of the problem. Start with CA/N parents, then to the
legislature that is supposed to make law and public policy to deal with

them.

Note that they also demand CPS be a child protection agency for
children that are disabled as these children seem to be.

It's a population that I did not work with professionally, but knew
well from observations and practicum when I was a raw lad in school.

And continued to hear about from collegues who did work with them.
Institutionalized children.

And universally, whether CPS workers, mental health professionals, or
professionals working with disabled children, the talk was the
same....how can we get services for these children RATHER THAN SEND
THEM INTO fake cheapo situations where they are warehoused with people
not equiped or trained to deal with them safely and effectively.

We all knew where the blame lie. The people, not unlike you, Michael,
in denial, and looking to blame others for what YOU are unwilling to
fix.

There's a reason I ask for more money for children. BECAUSE THERE NEVER

HAS BEEN ENOUGH. All children's programs, and nearly all social support

programs (eldrely, mentally ill, developmentally disabled) come badly
underfunded in this country. With the "make do" that results in cases
like the one you have posted.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Kane

Subject changed: Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early

3 From: Greegor - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:33 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?

Please be concise!


4 From: 0:- (AKA Kane) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:46 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Read my comments, point out what you think means one thing or the other

and ask your question in that context. Open ended babbling like that
above is just useless nonsense.

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


On complex issues failing to cover enough detail leave YOU will lots of

wiggle room to make accusations, innuendo, and insinutation, Greg.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


That woudl be a case by case situation.

Where the couple failed was to seek the help they needed to deal with
such disabled children. I've worked with children that were not
"disabled" but were so psychologically damaged that the patient to
staff ratio had to be one to one, and more.


Certain boys could not be alone with another boy, not even walk up the
stairs with him unaccompanied by an adult. Sexual attacks you see.

You are too ignorant to discuss this with, but I'm patient. Possibly
one day I will have imparted enough knowledge to you that you will
begin to have an awakening.


IS there a double standard when it comes to this?



No. It is a case by case matter. I'd expect a bio parent, a foster
parent, or an adoptive parent to use other means than caging.

My argument, that you have carefully done away with because you can't
handle it, is the political issues that come right back to the
public...folks like you that refuse to deal with reality and the
terrible burden that abusive and neglectful parents lay on society.


Of course we could let them just torture and kill to their hearts
content, now couldn't we?

Please be concise!


No. I will take as much space and words to tell it like it is when and
were I feel like it.

If you don't care for it, don't read it.

You don't remember much anyway, especially if it is in conflict with
your dearest biases or damages the false self image you have that you
are 'okay.'

You aren't Greg. People such as you are dangerous to individuals
(Reference advice on FightCPS) and society in general because of a
value system that denigrates children to nothing but possessions
without rights of their own.

Get well, or stay sick, but I'll continue to post the truth about this
problem and about your kind as I see fit. Long or short, concise or
verbose.

You can shove that bull**** self importance of your's straight up your
ass and have it for dinner.

0:-

5 From: 0:- ( AKA Kane ) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:01 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Can you think of or remember a single instance where I have defended
anyone, foster, adoptive, or bio parent, for mistreating children?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


Simple enough for you? Answer the question above.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


See above. And answer the question. You are insinuating again, without
proof.

Put up the proof then accuse. Just as we do with you. Evidence.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


From you, yes. Because you do not put these same kinds of insinuating
questions to your buddies.

Please be concise!


Concise enough for you, Ahole?

It's a Hawaiian word. Honest. Look it up.

R R R R RRRRR R R...what a pitiful piece of dreck you are.

0:-

6 From: Dan Sullivan - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:16 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?


Which was?

Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


What do you think, Greg?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


How many words?

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


Depends on the situation.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


What is "this?"

Please be concise!


Why?

You want less than a complete answer?


  #8  
Old December 22nd 06, 09:41 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.dads-rights.unmoderated,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default Dave Moore and Ken Pangborn

Please address the issue of the kids in cages.

Greegor wrote:
This is a little game I call "Make the agency sucks squirm".


Kane wrote R R R ....OH, good one, Greg.

Kane wrote
The only squirming you can produce is that which goes with trying to
hold in laughter long enough to try and compose a serious response to
your delusional rants.


Greg wrote
Please remember that they want to pretend their decisions
are objective.


Kane wrote
Really? Where have I said that? Presuming you are
pretending to claim R R R R RR ...that I'm an "agency suck."


The suckiest.

G Notice that these people can't even make
G a blanket statement that caging these kids was wrong.

K Of course not. We don't know. I don't have the
K evidence in front of me. I can't see the cages.

Yes you CAN! The photos are online at the links about it!
Please explain under what circumstances these cages would be OK.

Kane wrote
I did say, however, you squirming little liar, that I would not approve
of it from either foster/adopt families or bio families. How is it you
just lied again, Greg?

Don't you know how to argue any other way than making up the story as
you go?

In fact, here's my reply to that very question when you asked it three
up from here in the thread and I responded two up from here in the
thread"


Greegor wrote:
Kane! Do you sympathize with these people for
"caging" the kids?


Kane wrote
I've posted at least three times now I'd prefer they and foster parents
like them go to a place I don't even believe in...hell.


Then why the refusal to make a blanket condemnation?

K Why do you continue to ask me such stupid questions, Gagg?

Because you're such a fun guy.

K Do you sympathize with parents that
K beat their children and call it spanking?

Or is it totally legal spanking that you call "beating" because
you are such an anti-spanking zealot?

K Now there's a question you've avoided repeatedly.

Anybody can go to alt.parenting.spanking and see different!

See how you LIE, Greg? See how you LIE?


Nutcase.

G I think you KNOW that if a parent did this the agencies
G would not be quite so hesitant to condemn it outright.

K Bull****. They cut parents a great deal more
K slack overall than foster parents.

How many real parents operate such WAREHOUSES of caged kids?

How many MORE will OHIO discover if they actually LOOK?

I can SEE THE HEADLINES NOW! CPS will just LOVE it!

Two different caged kids simultaneously in OHIO right now.
Neither by real parents.

K A foster parent can't even spank and leave no
K mark, Greg. Caught at it they can be charged with assault.

Who so you think actually BELIEVES your lie that because
fosters are contractually prohibited against spanking, that they
are legally subject to criminal charges aside from the normal laws
which allow spanking? Where is this "SPECIAL LAW" that
applies to fosters but not others?

A clause in a contract does NOT subject them to special laws.

In a criminal court, LOCO PARENTIS would protect them
whether their contract is rescinded or not.

Kane wrote
The very least that happens are that the children are ALL
removed, not just the spanked child. You are so full of bull.


Because they broke their BUSINESS CONTRACT.

G A county in Ohio actually paid for at least one of these
G cages to be custom built, never labeled a "cage" of course.

K Could be. Tell us, how would you handle a child that wandered
K at night, smeared feces, sexually assaulted other children?

One minute you said they should burn in hell,
then you did the ""dance"" and now you're making
excuses? What are the terms under which locking a kid
in a cage is acceptable to you anyway?
As a representative of the ""expert"" agencies who know ALL, that is?

Kane wrote
Did you know that a doctor can prescribe restraints in such cases...but
that in most states it's illegal for a foster parent to use mechanical
restraints at all? Unless they have a doctors express permission via
prescription to do so.


You mean like the way CPS uses ""chemical restraint"" on kids?
That's worked out SO WELL!

Greg wrote
Both of the two Ohio "caged kids" stories did involve
regular ongoing visitation by social workers to their
respective homes. (see related story in old background thread)


Kane wrote
Yep. I've a feeling we are missing some pieces to the puzzle via
sensationalizing by the media. All they have leave out, opps! is that
there was in fact a doctors prescription.


You mean like that DHS Doktor who prescribed the repeated
ENEMA treatment in the MHI at Cherokee Iowa?

That one went REALLY WELL for Iowa DHS!
Until the FEDERAL JUDGE ordered it to stop!

Greg wrote
My point is NOT about the cages being either right or wrong,
but about the DOUBLE STANDARD that if a parent has
a child with these SAME sorts of problems, they are NOT
free to use such means, but that when the ""experts"" (sic)
themselves are confronted with the problem they turned a
blind eye to it (inspections) until the issue exploded on them.


Kane wrote
Provide one instance where a parent used
caging and the state removed their children for it.

Go ahead.


There have been MANY where parents have locked the bedroom door,
and some where the outside door was locked to stop sleepwalking kids.

Kane wrote
You ****ant, refused to answer MY question even while
I was answering yours in the same post as my question.


Are you watching this Ken and Dave?

What a fraud you are. Unethical, immoral and stupid to boot.


Hate mail from Hitler! Thanks Donald!

G Old background (more detailed news stories, etc.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...8121d8/?hl=en#

Kane wrote
Don't you think people can see you writing here, or are you counting
on being such a reprobate they'll give up on you in disgust and forget you?


G New background

Kane wrote
What's all this that follows. You asked questions, you got answered
then you again refuse to respond to those questions.

Are you some kind of saint above reproach that YOUR comments are
unquestionable, and only others are?

You are pig ****, nothing more.


Thanks for taking the high road, Kane!
More hate mail from Hitler! You're too kind really! Get REALLY
nasty!



http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...1e1546/?hl=en#

Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
1 Michael Dec 21
Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged Kids Case
Resumes Deliberations Early
2 0:- Dec 21
Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
3 Greegor Dec 21
4 0:- Dec 21
5 0:- Dec 21
6 Dan Sullivan Dec 21

1 From: Michael - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 8:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

POSTED: 7:00 am EST December 21, 2006
UPDATED: 9:05 am EST December 21, 2006
NORWALK, Ohio -- The jury in the northern Ohio "caged kids" trial will
get
an early start this morning as deliberations continue into a third day.



Jurors in Norwalk are considering the child endangering and abuse
charges
against Sharen and Michael Gravelle. They're accused of making some of
their 11 adopted children sleep in wood and wire cages.


The jurors deliberated about two hours Tuesday and all day Wednesday.
They
got permission from the judge to resume at 7:30 a.m. Thursday --
one-and-a-half hours early.


The defense says the Gravelles made enclosed bunks to protect the
special
needs youngsters from their sometimes-violent siblings.
- --
Michael (GN)


Subject changed: Underfunded programs overload CPS... Jury In Caged
Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early
2 From: 0:- - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 10:25 am
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services

This has been an interesting story to follow.

The most horrendous cases of foster and adoption child abuse come out
of these "warehouses," the state sets up and forces CPS to serve.

The cost to institutionalize children who are dangerous, to themselves
and each other, is extreme. The alternative CHOSEN BY LEGISLATORS,
Michael, not by CPS, is to support the lower cost placement with
ordinary citizens.

This is the kind of results we see.

Another case, just a few years ago in Oregon, comes to mind. There a
similar family of adopted and foster children were NOT adequately
confined and there was an horrendeous amount of abuse, both physical
and sexual, between the children.

The parents were "maintained" by CPS doing what CPS is mandated to do
by the legislature.

When you folks learn about the system, instead of your strange
delusional views that all evil resides in CPS, you might get as far
back as the law makers, and who elects them, and what they lobby for.

Low cost, Michael. Hide the problem, Michael. CPS workers do yoeman
work, considering.

Go to the source of the problem. Start with CA/N parents, then to the
legislature that is supposed to make law and public policy to deal with

them.

Note that they also demand CPS be a child protection agency for
children that are disabled as these children seem to be.

It's a population that I did not work with professionally, but knew
well from observations and practicum when I was a raw lad in school.

And continued to hear about from collegues who did work with them.
Institutionalized children.

And universally, whether CPS workers, mental health professionals, or
professionals working with disabled children, the talk was the
same....how can we get services for these children RATHER THAN SEND
THEM INTO fake cheapo situations where they are warehoused with people
not equiped or trained to deal with them safely and effectively.

We all knew where the blame lie. The people, not unlike you, Michael,
in denial, and looking to blame others for what YOU are unwilling to
fix.

There's a reason I ask for more money for children. BECAUSE THERE NEVER

HAS BEEN ENOUGH. All children's programs, and nearly all social support

programs (eldrely, mentally ill, developmentally disabled) come badly
underfunded in this country. With the "make do" that results in cases
like the one you have posted.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Kane

Subject changed: Jury In Caged Kids Case Resumes Deliberations Early

3 From: Greegor - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:33 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?

Please be concise!


4 From: 0:- (AKA Kane) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 3:46 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Read my comments, point out what you think means one thing or the other

and ask your question in that context. Open ended babbling like that
above is just useless nonsense.

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


On complex issues failing to cover enough detail leave YOU will lots of

wiggle room to make accusations, innuendo, and insinutation, Greg.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


That woudl be a case by case situation.

Where the couple failed was to seek the help they needed to deal with
such disabled children. I've worked with children that were not
"disabled" but were so psychologically damaged that the patient to
staff ratio had to be one to one, and more.


Certain boys could not be alone with another boy, not even walk up the
stairs with him unaccompanied by an adult. Sexual attacks you see.

You are too ignorant to discuss this with, but I'm patient. Possibly
one day I will have imparted enough knowledge to you that you will
begin to have an awakening.


IS there a double standard when it comes to this?



No. It is a case by case matter. I'd expect a bio parent, a foster
parent, or an adoptive parent to use other means than caging.

My argument, that you have carefully done away with because you can't
handle it, is the political issues that come right back to the
public...folks like you that refuse to deal with reality and the
terrible burden that abusive and neglectful parents lay on society.


Of course we could let them just torture and kill to their hearts
content, now couldn't we?

Please be concise!


No. I will take as much space and words to tell it like it is when and
were I feel like it.

If you don't care for it, don't read it.

You don't remember much anyway, especially if it is in conflict with
your dearest biases or damages the false self image you have that you
are 'okay.'

You aren't Greg. People such as you are dangerous to individuals
(Reference advice on FightCPS) and society in general because of a
value system that denigrates children to nothing but possessions
without rights of their own.

Get well, or stay sick, but I'll continue to post the truth about this
problem and about your kind as I see fit. Long or short, concise or
verbose.

You can shove that bull**** self importance of your's straight up your
ass and have it for dinner.

0:-

5 From: 0:- ( AKA Kane ) - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:01 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?
Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


Can you think of or remember a single instance where I have defended
anyone, foster, adoptive, or bio parent, for mistreating children?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


Simple enough for you? Answer the question above.

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


See above. And answer the question. You are insinuating again, without
proof.

Put up the proof then accuse. Just as we do with you. Evidence.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


From you, yes. Because you do not put these same kinds of insinuating
questions to your buddies.

Please be concise!


Concise enough for you, Ahole?

It's a Hawaiian word. Honest. Look it up.

R R R R RRRRR R R...what a pitiful piece of dreck you are.

0:-

6 From: Dan Sullivan - Date: Thurs, Dec 21 2006 4:16 pm
Groups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents

Greegor wrote:
Kane, Can you please clarify what you hinted at?


Which was?

Do you think it's OK for these Foster/Adopters to have CAGED these
kids?


What do you think, Greg?

Just a simple answer, not a three page rant or a filibuster.


How many words?

If an actual parent had a kid or kids like this, and THEY
did this, would you back them up?


Depends on the situation.

IS there a double standard when it comes to this?


What is "this?"

Please be concise!


Why?

You want less than a complete answer?


  #9  
Old December 22nd 06, 02:35 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.dads-rights.unmoderated,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
krp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,268
Default Dave Moore and Ken Pangborn


"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
This is a little game I call "Make the agency sucks squirm".



Why label this thread by myself and Moore???


  #10  
Old December 23rd 06, 12:16 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default GUILTY OHIO Caged kids(11) Gravelles

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061222/...caged_children

Parents convicted in caged kids case By THOMAS J. SHEERAN and M.R.
KROPKO, Associated Press Writers
10 minutes ago

NORWALK, Ohio - A couple accused of forcing some of their 11 adopted
special-needs children to sleep in wood and wire cages were convicted
Friday of endangerment and abuse.

Sharen Gravelle and her husband, Michael, showed no reaction in the
courtroom as the guilty verdicts were read. The jury convicted both of
four felony counts of child endangering and seven misdemeanor counts.
Each was acquitted of 13 charges, including four felony child
endangering charges.

The parents claimed during the three-week trial that they needed to
keep some of the youngsters in enclosed beds rigged with alarms to
protect them from their own dangerous behavior and stop them from
wandering at night.

Fighting back tears on the courthouse steps, her voice cracking, Sharen
Gravelle asked her lawyer to get a small battalion of media cameras
"out of my face."

Their attorneys said an appeal is likely.

"I feel terrible," said Ken Myers, the lawyer for Sharen Gravelle, 58.
"We don't think they were guilty of any criminal offenses. They did the
best they could with a very difficult situation and with very little
help."

Myers and Richard Drucker, the attorney for Michael Gravelle, 57, said
they were still trying to figure out why the jury found the couple
guilty of some charges involving caged beds, but not others.

"In many respects, the defendants could consider this a victory in that
so many counts were thrown out," Drucker said.

Prosecutor Daivia Kasper said she was satisfied with the verdicts. "I
had certainly hoped for felonies on behalf of all the children," she
said.

The children, who suffered from problems such as fetal alcohol syndrome
and a disorder that involves eating nonfood items, ranged in age from 1
to 14 when authorities removed them in September 2005 from the Gravelle
home in rural Wakeman, about 60 miles west of Cleveland. The youngsters
were placed in foster care last fall, and the couple lost custody in
March.

Margaret Kern, a court-appointed advocate for the children, was
delighted with the outcome. "Finally, it was a long time coming, but
justice has been served for these children," Kern said.

The youngsters are doing well in foster homes, she said.

Jurors declined to comment.

The Gravelles could face one to five years in prison and a maximum fine
of $10,000 for each felony count. The misdemeanors can result in no
jail time to up to six months each. Judge Earl McGimpsey set sentencing
for Feb. 12 and allowed the Gravelles to remain free on bond.

During the three-week trial, their defense included testimony from a
social worker and others who said that they never witnessed abuse and
that the children's behavior improved because of the bright blue and
red cages.

Prosecutors said the couple were cruel. Witnesses, including the
sheriff and some of the children, said the cages were urine-stained and
lacked pillows or mattresses.

One Gravelle child testified he was forced to live in a bathroom for 81
days, sleeping in a bathtub because of a bed-wetting problem. The
Gravelles' attorneys said the boy exaggerated the length of his
bathroom stay, and an expert for the defense testified that the
technique helped the boy.

The Gravelles have said they took on so many needy children because no
one else wanted them. Prosecutors have suggested the couple was after
the subsidies that accompanied them.

 




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